Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest
- Thread starter Rolman
- Start date
- Mature Historic
Oh, true that. We got played like a fiddle by the chancellor. Gotta be more cautious in the future.
We need to stop drinking. Make up a scriptural excuse for it too. Picking up alcoholism at a time of physical and mental recovery is literally the worst thing we can do.
[X] No. Mariana and Mariana alone.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Honestly, Mariana is great and we're hitting it off. Her father would also be a good mentor for us in military matters, and he seems like someone who doesn't appreciate double-dealing.
We're getting a good deal here, so I'm gonna go with it.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] No. Mariana and Mariana alone.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
I'm vibing with Mariana, so I don't see a reason to deviate.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
I'm vibing with Mariana, so I don't see a reason to deviate.
A Note on the Ostrogski Family
- Location
- United States
I think I failed to emphasize that the Ostrogskis are, like, the Ruthenian Radziwiłłs. Technically the Ruthenian Radziwiłłs are, well, the Radziwiłłs, but you read my meaning. Not small-ish fry like the Sapiehas or powerful within a certain demo like the Firlejs. I mean, they basically own Kyiv. Should've said more on this. Also, poor Halszka Ostrogska. She got shat on and used as a pawn so much there's sad folktales about her and everything.
This is not meant to influence opinion in the slightest, I just realized I think I never said anything about their position besides their seat being Kyiv.
Is this fair to say, Ser n Kir?
This is not meant to influence opinion in the slightest, I just realized I think I never said anything about their position besides their seat being Kyiv.
Is this fair to say, Ser n Kir?
Sure, but Mariana is into us, we share hobbies, her dad is a cool guy and the drama so far has been pretty low.
Kyiv is a city, yeah, but Mariana is Best Girl. Can't put a price on that.
My Own Thoughts on Majority-Rule Sejms
- Location
- United States
Been meaning to ramble for a bit.
With everything said and done, more or less, here's my nerd-vision. Besides, it's not like the people at the time wouldn't be thinking this, too, they were smart.
Majority rule would be a major point of legal divergence for the young Commonwealth. Here's my hypothesis on its effects:
The good thing is that this makes Liberum Veto obsolete -- may "Polish parliament" never mean what it ends up meaning -- and greatly increases the pace at which a Sejm can work to legislate. Politicking would look a bit more "traditional."
Potentially.
The principle of viritim more or less means that any landowning man with an herb to his name and the time and resources to make it to the Sejm has a vote. This could mean the presence of literally thousands of legislators. It is also a blow to the Lithuanian-Ruthenian cause due to obvious logistical concerns. So, imagine trying to get a simple majority out of that.
In the absence of unaniminity may also come a sense of the absence of legitimacy. It may become easier to level accusations of fraud, bribery, etc., and I could well imagine a world with more rokosze, illegal uprisings, and intra-aristocratic disputes.
All in all, I think it could be replacing one dangerous legal mechanism with another. Seems high risk-high reward to me, basically.
What do you all think? Sounds about right or off the money?
With everything said and done, more or less, here's my nerd-vision. Besides, it's not like the people at the time wouldn't be thinking this, too, they were smart.
Majority rule would be a major point of legal divergence for the young Commonwealth. Here's my hypothesis on its effects:
The good thing is that this makes Liberum Veto obsolete -- may "Polish parliament" never mean what it ends up meaning -- and greatly increases the pace at which a Sejm can work to legislate. Politicking would look a bit more "traditional."
Potentially.
The principle of viritim more or less means that any landowning man with an herb to his name and the time and resources to make it to the Sejm has a vote. This could mean the presence of literally thousands of legislators. It is also a blow to the Lithuanian-Ruthenian cause due to obvious logistical concerns. So, imagine trying to get a simple majority out of that.
In the absence of unaniminity may also come a sense of the absence of legitimacy. It may become easier to level accusations of fraud, bribery, etc., and I could well imagine a world with more rokosze, illegal uprisings, and intra-aristocratic disputes.
All in all, I think it could be replacing one dangerous legal mechanism with another. Seems high risk-high reward to me, basically.
What do you all think? Sounds about right or off the money?
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- Location
- Poland
Sounds mostly right. Polish szlachta had the right to field their own armies if they had the resources for it so disputes in the more factional Sejm devolving into open fighting between two families soldiers wouldn't be out of the question. However it should be noted that all most szlahta had were their title and a farm so they would gravitate towards the more wealthy elites who give them money in exchange for votes, as such the Sejm would likely develop something akin to political parties centred around the magnates and their entourage of lower nobility with the middling nobles being the decisive votes one needs to acquire.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] Write to Lord Ostrogski expressing interest in meeting his daughter, Elżbieta.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Sertorius Gets Realistic (see above threadmark)
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
Aye, the Ostrogskis were a powerful family in Ukraine, as well as the main protectors of the Orthodox faith.
That's why Sejms were organized through delegates, much like today. Local Sejmiks (provincial parliaments) elected their representatives, gave them legally-binding instructions about how to vote about what and sent them for the main Sejm. To make the parliament viritim, much like the free elections, would have been a logistical nightmare for the reasons you yourself mentioned. By the way, viritim means that all nobles would have been legally available to participate in the Sejm, not just the landowners. The poor and destitute noblemen would have had the right to be there as well, and since they were always plentiful and the main group to bribe, so yeah...
I cannot see the nobility to agree to make Sejms viritim, just like the free elections, since they had a nice and long tradition of voting via representatives and well, being elected one was a prestigious thing. If not for anything else, then simply for the fact, that regular traveling to and from the Sejm would have been a nightmare for the vast majority of the nobles. Most never leave their place of birth, except for important business.
As to voting by majority and annulling the Liberum Veto. The nobles thought a unanimous decision was an important thing when it comes to their political power. Both the rich and the poor had the same political rights and everybody had to agree on something, nobody could force the rest to make a decision they didn't like. True, it was mostly a facade, but technically it was to protect from abuses of power by the rich minority. Plus, the nobility noticed the Liberum Veto problem in later centuries and thought of a solution: a Confederated Sejm. A Sejm, that was organized via confederation, one for the Crown and one for Lithuania, voted via majority by default, therefore there was no unanimity and no Liberum Veto.
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[X] Write to Lord Firlej asking to begin correspondence with his daughter, Jadwiga.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Solarstream
It's all in the cards
- Location
- Zombie World
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] No. Mariana and Mariana alone.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Kir’s Giant and Comprehensive Ostrogski Rundown
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
[X] Write to Lord Ostrogski expressing interest in meeting his daughter, Elżbieta.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Certainly, the Radziwiłłs are strong because of their vast lands politics and connections to both Old Lithuania (I mentioned a mythological Baltic heritage of theirs before) and the "New", but their position has always been that of "top administrators, military leaders, and advisors, but not-quite-dukes of Lithuania".
The Ostrogski are "literally the rightful kings of Ruthenia, who pretend to be just some simple princes because they are fine with their massive collections anyway, and thank God for that".
Let's look at this map (not at the red circles):
Most of the first column (sans Zamojscy) alone are Ostrogski and their cadets, agnates, or vassals. Look at their colors on the map. Now, consider that these are just their PRIVATE LANDS that they keep at all times. Aside from that, so that these feudal lords would even agree to the Union of 1569, Kostiantyn-Vasyl Ostrogski was allowed to keep the assigned title of the Voivode (as they translated themselves back in those days to the foreigners, Palatine) of Kyiv. Palatinatus Kioviensis included these lands:
Now, this title would be temporary (the next voivode was assigned from a different dynasty), and the southern part of this was dealing with the quasi-vassals, quasi-madmen the Cossacks, but Ostrogskis, being instrumental to the rise of Cossackdom as a way of life, didn't mind. To sweeten the deal further, the main family and branch families also got the various Starostwos. Another form of a smaller temporary title for the king to give out, however the kings would assign those for indefinite use and even succession in case of a deal with particularly powerful nobles/cossacks.
Even after the main Ostrogski line has died out, their cadet branches picked up the torch, with the strongest one, Wiśniowiecki, ironically, in a way birthing both the cossack revolution and the defense against it, eventually fully Polonizing, and even being elected as the Kings of Poland. He was a lousy king, or at least regarded as such by his contemporaries (homophobia possibly involved), but what's interesting is this tree of ancestors he has ordered, which did not shy away from claiming descent from King Daniel of Ruthenia (something that certain current and past researchers of the Ostrogski dynasty sometimes like to deny, claiming petty princedoms or Lithuanian origins instead, despite no contemporary source proposing the idea)
In short, yes, they are quite strong, old, and are even only called "of Ostrog" to hide the lost cause of the Galician Inheritance crisis and let bygones be bygones. I could imagine writing them as magnanimous and content, but somewhat bitter and reminiscing of the crown the claims to which they have to give up for the sake of peace and unity against the southern/eastern threats (because the -physical- crown itself disappeared somewhere during the succession crisis).
Some sources of the period to get more inspiration on the Ostrogskis (Google Translate should work... I hope):
Letter asking mercy of the Ostrogskis, written by a defeated rebellious Cossack Hetman of Polish (!) origins
Latin four-book poem on the history of the town of Ostrog and the Ostrogski family
More celebratory poems
I actually decided to translate the short Lament poem on the death of an Ostrogski princeling, the Voivode of Volhynia myself to make it rhyme.
FROM THE BOOK "THE LAMENT OF THE HOUSE OF PRINCELINGS OF OSTROG OVER THE MOST SERENE PRINCE OLEKSANDR KOSTYANTYNOVYCH, PRINCELING IN OSTROG, VOIVODE OF VOLYN, WHO HAS DEPARTED THIS WORLD"
FROM FATHER TO SONS
Remember your roots from the princely Ostrogskis of Ruthenian kind,
Whose faith, diligence, and piety you shall keep in mind.
I want to brag about you in front of the great state
By God, let none of you become an apostate
To the faith of the Greek Apostolic Church of the East,
To the good of our house, and our glorious ancestors' feast.
I know of times when your ancestors held their faith like a shield,
Then the enemies of our house always scattered trembling in a field.
That's how they were famous, that's the greatness they acquired,
That which, God willing, shall never be bemired,
For remember my word, if you abandon your faith
Your honor, property and health will fade like a wraith,
But let it be through the vigilant faith in your princely estates
That our house and I will rise in good fame from deathly embrace.
TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMONWEALTH
I ask all you fellow Christians to remember me,
My name is Oleksandr, that's for all to see.
As long as the world stands and us Ruthenians thrive,
Please, be you man of either estate, let my memory survive.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Yep, although by 1573 their cadet branches like Zasławski and Wiśniowiecki (confound the Polish version of their surname, how do I even pronounce that) are on the rise, the Ostrogski are THE big house amongst the magnates.
Certainly, the Radziwiłłs are strong because of their vast lands politics and connections to both Old Lithuania (I mentioned a mythological Baltic heritage of theirs before) and the "New", but their position has always been that of "top administrators, military leaders, and advisors, but not-quite-dukes of Lithuania".
The Ostrogski are "literally the rightful kings of Ruthenia, who pretend to be just some simple princes because they are fine with their massive collections anyway, and thank God for that".
Let's look at this map (not at the red circles):
Most of the first column (sans Zamojscy) alone are Ostrogski and their cadets, agnates, or vassals. Look at their colors on the map. Now, consider that these are just their PRIVATE LANDS that they keep at all times. Aside from that, so that these feudal lords would even agree to the Union of 1569, Kostiantyn-Vasyl Ostrogski was allowed to keep the assigned title of the Voivode (as they translated themselves back in those days to the foreigners, Palatine) of Kyiv. Palatinatus Kioviensis included these lands:
Now, this title would be temporary (the next voivode was assigned from a different dynasty), and the southern part of this was dealing with the quasi-vassals, quasi-madmen the Cossacks, but Ostrogskis, being instrumental to the rise of Cossackdom as a way of life, didn't mind. To sweeten the deal further, the main family and branch families also got the various Starostwos. Another form of a smaller temporary title for the king to give out, however the kings would assign those for indefinite use and even succession in case of a deal with particularly powerful nobles/cossacks.
Even after the main Ostrogski line has died out, their cadet branches picked up the torch, with the strongest one, Wiśniowiecki, ironically, in a way birthing both the cossack revolution and the defense against it, eventually fully Polonizing, and even being elected as the Kings of Poland. He was a lousy king, or at least regarded as such by his contemporaries (homophobia possibly involved), but what's interesting is this tree of ancestors he has ordered, which did not shy away from claiming descent from King Daniel of Ruthenia (something that certain current and past researchers of the Ostrogski dynasty sometimes like to deny, claiming petty princedoms or Lithuanian origins instead, despite no contemporary source proposing the idea)
In short, yes, they are quite strong, old, and are even only called "of Ostrog" to hide the lost cause of the Galician Inheritance crisis and let bygones be bygones. I could imagine writing them as magnanimous and content, but somewhat bitter and reminiscing of the crown the claims to which they have to give up for the sake of peace and unity against the southern/eastern threats (because the -physical- crown itself disappeared somewhere during the succession crisis).
Some sources of the period to get more inspiration on the Ostrogskis (Google Translate should work... I hope):
Letter asking mercy of the Ostrogskis, written by a defeated rebellious Cossack Hetman of Polish (!) origins
Latin four-book poem on the history of the town of Ostrog and the Ostrogski family
More celebratory poems
I actually decided to translate the short Lament poem on the death of an Ostrogski princeling, the Voivode of Volhynia myself to make it rhyme.
FROM THE BOOK "THE LAMENT OF THE HOUSE OF PRINCELINGS OF OSTROG OVER THE MOST SERENE PRINCE OLEKSANDR KOSTYANTYNOVYCH, PRINCELING IN OSTROG, VOIVODE OF VOLYN, WHO HAS DEPARTED THIS WORLD"
FROM FATHER TO SONS
Remember your roots from the princely Ostrogskis of Ruthenian kind,
Whose faith, diligence, and piety you shall keep in mind.
I want to brag about you in front of the great state
By God, let none of you become an apostate
To the faith of the Greek Apostolic Church of the East,
To the good of our house, and our glorious ancestors' feast.
I know of times when your ancestors held their faith like a shield,
Then the enemies of our house always scattered trembling in a field.
That's how they were famous, that's the greatness they acquired,
That which, God willing, shall never be bemired,
For remember my word, if you abandon your faith
Your honor, property and health will fade like a wraith,
But let it be through the vigilant faith in your princely estates
That our house and I will rise in good fame from deathly embrace.
TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMONWEALTH
I ask all you fellow Christians to remember me,
My name is Oleksandr, that's for all to see.
As long as the world stands and us Ruthenians thrive,
Please, be you man of either estate, let my memory survive.
- Location
- United States
Many many many thanks for this writeup; your knowledge of the region and its people is invaluable to us all! It's a bummer I came in so ignorant back in '22 or else they'd have been a chargen choice. Cest la vie.[X] Write to Lord Ostrogski expressing interest in meeting his daughter, Elżbieta.
[X] "Now I'd love to see a lady hunt."
Yep, although by 1573 their cadet branches like Zasławski and Wiśniowiecki (confound the Polish version of their surname, how do I even pronounce that) are on the rise, the Ostrogski are THE big house amongst the magnates.
Certainly, the Radziwiłłs are strong because of their vast lands politics and connections to both Old Lithuania (I mentioned a mythological Baltic heritage of theirs before) and the "New", but their position has always been that of "top administrators, military leaders, and advisors, but not-quite-dukes of Lithuania".
The Ostrogski are "literally the rightful kings of Ruthenia, who pretend to be just some simple princes because they are fine with their massive collections anyway, and thank God for that".
Let's look at this map (not at the red circles):
Most of the first column (sans Zamojscy) alone are Ostrogski and their cadets, agnates, or vassals. Look at their colors on the map. Now, consider that these are just their PRIVATE LANDS that they keep at all times. Aside from that, so that these feudal lords would even agree to the Union of 1569, Kostiantyn-Vasyl Ostrogski was allowed to keep the assigned title of the Voivode (as they translated themselves back in those days to the foreigners, Palatine) of Kyiv. Palatinatus Kioviensis included these lands:
Now, this title would be temporary (the next voivode was assigned from a different dynasty), and the southern part of this was dealing with the quasi-vassals, quasi-madmen the Cossacks, but Ostrogskis, being instrumental to the rise of Cossackdom as a way of life, didn't mind. To sweeten the deal further, the main family and branch families also got the various Starostwos. Another form of a smaller temporary title for the king to give out, however the kings would assign those for indefinite use and even succession in case of a deal with particularly powerful nobles/cossacks.
Even after the main Ostrogski line has died out, their cadet branches picked up the torch, with the strongest one, Wiśniowiecki, ironically, in a way birthing both the cossack revolution and the defense against it, eventually fully Polonizing, and even being elected as the Kings of Poland. He was a lousy king, or at least regarded as such by his contemporaries (homophobia possibly involved), but what's interesting is this tree of ancestors he has ordered, which did not shy away from claiming descent from King Daniel of Ruthenia (something that certain current and past researchers of the Ostrogski dynasty sometimes like to deny, claiming petty princedoms or Lithuanian origins instead, despite no contemporary source proposing the idea)
In short, yes, they are quite strong, old, and are even only called "of Ostrog" to hide the lost cause of the Galician Inheritance crisis and let bygones be bygones. I could imagine writing them as magnanimous and content, but somewhat bitter and reminiscing of the crown the claims to which they have to give up for the sake of peace and unity against the southern/eastern threats (because the -physical- crown itself disappeared somewhere during the succession crisis).
Some sources of the period to get more inspiration on the Ostrogskis (Google Translate should work... I hope):
Letter asking mercy of the Ostrogskis, written by a defeated rebellious Cossack Hetman of Polish (!) origins
Latin four-book poem on the history of the town of Ostrog and the Ostrogski family
More celebratory poems
I actually decided to translate the short Lament poem on the death of an Ostrogski princeling, the Voivode of Volhynia myself to make it rhyme.
FROM THE BOOK "THE LAMENT OF THE HOUSE OF PRINCELINGS OF OSTROG OVER THE MOST SERENE PRINCE OLEKSANDR KOSTYANTYNOVYCH, PRINCELING IN OSTROG, VOIVODE OF VOLYN, WHO HAS DEPARTED THIS WORLD"
FROM FATHER TO SONS
Remember your roots from the princely Ostrogskis of Ruthenian kind,
Whose faith, diligence, and piety you shall keep in mind.
I want to brag about you in front of the great state
By God, let none of you become an apostate
To the faith of the Greek Apostolic Church of the East,
To the good of our house, and our glorious ancestors' feast.
I know of times when your ancestors held their faith like a shield,
Then the enemies of our house always scattered trembling in a field.
That's how they were famous, that's the greatness they acquired,
That which, God willing, shall never be bemired,
For remember my word, if you abandon your faith
Your honor, property and health will fade like a wraith,
But let it be through the vigilant faith in your princely estates
That our house and I will rise in good fame from deathly embrace.
TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMONWEALTH
I ask all you fellow Christians to remember me,
My name is Oleksandr, that's for all to see.
As long as the world stands and us Ruthenians thrive,
Please, be you man of either estate, let my memory survive.
With this in mind -- an oversight: the Ostrogskis will henceforth be referred to as "Prince" (książę/knyaz/forgive me im anglo) rather than "Lord" -- Polish Pan -- which is also used as "Sir" as in Marszowski in a vague attempt by my monolingual self to differentiate social position from a catch-all title. Hopefully I am not too wrong!
Also, Kir, while I've got you: I'm trying to figure out if the Kodenski Sapiehas had a princely title conferred upon them in 1572. There's only one non-digitized source that I could find claiming this, and it doesn't say who or how or why. Sertorius is helping with this too! Many thanks once more.
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
Posting in public for the betterment of mankind.
After some extra-quick research, I failed to confirm whatever the various Wiki pages have been saying. The Sapiehas have supposedly received their princely title from Sigismund I in 1512 and Sigismund II Augustus in 1572 supposedly confirmed the title of Count of the HRE, that they received from Emperor Maximilian II. 3 scientific publications I found explicitly debunked both of these claims. The Sapiehas received their first title of Princes of the HRE in 1700 and the Sejm of 1768 merely confirmed their supposedly old Lithuanian title, based on the false claims mentioned above. They also received similar confirmations of their old title from the occupying powers in later years.
So no, it can be safely said, that the Sapiehas are no Ruthenian princes, much like the Radziwiłłs.
As for the Ostrogskis, Kir already explained everything.
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Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
Adding to @Sertorius 's research, I've quickly wiki-fu'd up a rather important Sapieha fellow from late 17th century, Kazimierz Jan Sapieha, and what his titles are. And it turns out his titles are all Commonwealth temporary titles, rather than ancient lands of any sort.
Cupbearer of Lithuania (since 1659),
Senechal Lithuanian (since 1661),
Lithuanian court treasurer (since 1661),
Voivode of Polotsk (ca. 1670 — 1681),
Field Hetman of Lithuania (1681-1682),
Starosta of Zhmud (probably from 1681/82)
Voivode of Vilnius (in 1682-1707), received before May 22, 1682 at the same time as the promise of the post of Grand Hetman of Lithuania
Starosta of Brest,
Great Hetman of Lithuania (in 1682-1703 and 1707-1708); received the nomination on February 15, 1683.
Starosta of Borisov, June 18, 1667, received from father-in-aw
Starosta of Onykshyn; On October 10, 1669, received after his mother-in-law resigned, with the king's consent confirmed on April 15, 1670; On June 16, 1708, he gave the title to his son Jerzy
Starosta of Bobruisk since 1686
Starosta of Zdzitivskyi (Slonim county), received from his mother in 1687.
It's also quite interesting how the Starostwas by this point were being treated as pretty much their hereditary lands, with the king simply approving the formality. The Sapiehas gamed their position in the Commonwealth politics, and used the likely fake 16th century princely title for momentary diplomatic upheaval. Quite possibly they would introduce themselves as princely, while being coy on where exactly is the proof of this, because, hey, King Sigismund himself approved of it.
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