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Rocket Design Agency - A Playtesting Quest

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Cast and Characters
  • Informational
    • NASA
    Brad L. Whipple - Director, New Alleghany Space Administration

    Payload Design - +1
    Rocket Design - +2
    Engine Design - +3
    Mission Planning - +1
    Flight Control - +2
    Damage Control - +0
    Spacecraft Activity - +0
    Extravehicular Activity - +0
    Experimental Activity - +2

    Flight Objectives
    - Continue scientific launches, progressing to probes into the space beyond orbit by year end 1959.
    - Begin experiments which will allow a progression to human spaceflight before year end 1960.
    - Cooperate with the Armed Forces in developing their abilities through the application of spaceflight.

    Mission Schedule - Current Date: January 1960
    - Low Orbit 1 (Summer 1958) - Hope-2 (Partial failure)
    - Re-entry test 1 - Sub-orbital - Full Success, August 1958
    - Low Orbit 2 - Partial Failure, Hope-3 , October 1958
    - Re-entry test 2 - Failure, November 1958
    - Military Communications - Success, ARTS, December 1958
    - High Orbit 1 - Success, Hope-4, January 1959
    - Re-entry test 3 - Success, March 1959
    - Bio-sciences - Launch Failure, July 1959
    - Discovery 1, Success, September 1959
    - High Orbit 2 - Success, Hope-5, October 1959
    - Lunar Probe - Launch Failure, Artemis-Lunar, November 1959
    - Bio-sciences - Success, Astrocaphe-Chuck, December 1959
    - Discovery 2 - Failure, January 1960
    - Astrocathe test - Success, animal in space, February 1960
    - March lost due to Artemis redesign
    - NAN payload - April 1960 - First Hermes Flight
    - Crown 3 - Spring/Summer 1960
    - Commercial payload - Summer 1960
    - IRVOS 1 - Summer 1960
    - NAA Communications - Summer/Fall 1960
    - Space Camp test - Summer/Fall 1960
    - NAN payload - Fall/Winter 1960
    - Commercial payload -Winter 1960
    - Astrocathe test - Winter 1960
    - NAA Communications - Spring 1961

    - Astrocaphe phase 1 (3 crewed flights)
    - Astrocaphe phase 2 (3 crewed flights)

    Hardware
    - Prometheus (1M to LEO)
    - Hermes-L (6M to LEO)
    - Hermes-B (8M to LEO)

    Andre Larkin - Team Lead at EPL
    Rocket Design 0
    Engine Design +2


    EPL Design Team
    Antony Miratha, Aerodynamics
    Susan Stone, Astrophysics
    Michael Cole, Rocket Engineering
    Amy Mathews, Trajectory Planning
    Simon T. Harrison, Chemical Engineering

    +2 Rocket Design, +2 Payload Design +1 Engine Design, +1 Fuel Selection, +1 Flight Planning

    Side Characters
    Dr. Evan Hart - Research Director at EPL
    Arthur Ley, proponent of Lunar flight.
    Franz Haber, Doctor and researcher.
    Dieter von Markand, Pacifist and astrophysicist.

    EPL Facilities
    Design workshop
    Chemical research laboratory
    Launch analysis equipment
    (Please note that EPL has neither rocket nor engine manufacturing facilities)
     
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  • Informational
    • [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (Other)
    -[X]Request congress to provide for an expanded budget to develop a launch vehicle, noting the "failure of negotiations to use existing technology."

    Motion to pointedly exclude the airforce from anything good we do for a long while, or until she apologizes?
     
    Where are the Prometheus numbers? I did a quick look and couldn't find them.

    For now I'll assume you're correct but I'd prefer to be able to check myself.
    [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (bring back the Prometheus)
     
    notgreat said:
    Where are the Prometheus numbers? I did a quick look and couldn't find them.
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    Proposal 8 First Stage
    7M tank, 140 M fuel; 2x Dougal E-1 (9.04M, 19.56C);
    Explosive Bolts (0.78M, 0.39C), Basic Beam riding (1.57M, 3.14C), Small Fins (0.78M, 0.78C)
    Stage Mass: 157.58/17.58
    Stage Cost: 39.76
    Stage: ISP: 281s
    Stage Thrust: 655.4kN (262.16M loft)
    Stage TMR: 1.65
    Stage dV: ~6000ms-1

    Proposal 8 Second Stage
    1M tank, 20 M fuel; 1x UA LF-1V (2.12M, 5.12C);
    Basic Beam riding (0.23M, 0.46C), Carbon Vanes (0.21M, 0.42C)
    Stage Mass: 23.32/3.32
    Stage Cost: 8.36C
    Stage ISP: 325s
    Stage Thrust: 177.4kN (70.9M loft)
    Stage TMR: 3.04
    Stage dV: ~6200ms-1

    Proposal 8 Full Design
    First Stage Mass: 181.8/41.8
    First Stage dV: 4,048ms-1
    Second Stage Mass: 24.22/4.22
    Second Stage dV: 5,565ms-1
    Payload Mass: .9M
    Total dV: 9,613ms-1
    Launch TMR: 1.43
    Total Mass: 181.8 (45,450kg)
    Total Cost: 48.12
    Click to expand...
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    [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (bring back the Prometheus)

    Worst case scenario, we dust of something like the MISIT Core stage to serve as strap-on boosters to increase payload capacity.
     
    Ash19256 said:
    [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (bring back the Prometheus)

    Worst case scenario, we dust of something like the MISIT Core stage to serve as strap-on boosters to increase payload capacity.
    Click to expand...
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    Yeah, we've got a lot of options. Lengthening a tank would be the one I'd reach for first, since we have some spare thrust to play with. It's a rocket we could take farther than we initially realized. Granted, it's one that I don't want to take arbitrarily far (evolving it as far as the Russians took the R-7 is perhaps unwise), but pretty far none the less. There's room for a larger tanks, or a third stage, or some boosters, or more engines on the first stage if we needed the thrust, or someday a high performance cryogenic upper stage. Our ISPs are pretty damn good for right now, and we have the thrust budget to get a little creative with it. Looking back on it, it was probably a bit of a mistake to be looking elsewhere when we haven't outgrown that architecture yet. If we're still using it for anything but the smallest and earliest manned stuff, it may be time to seriously consider if we are better served designing something else, but I could see this evolving into a family of launch vehicles that could remain relevant for many decades.
    Adhoc vote count started by brmj on Mar 8, 2019 at 12:33 AM, finished with 20 posts and 10 votes.
    • [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (Other)
      -[X]Request congress to provide for an expanded budget to develop a launch vehicle, noting the "failure of negotiations to use existing technology."
      [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (bring back the Prometheus)
    Click to expand...
     
    The more I look at it and think about it, the more ridiculous the Prometheus actually is. That first stage engine? It's comparable to a SpaceX Merlin. The thrust is just a little bit lower than the first version, but the specific impulse is just a hair under the values SpaceX only reached with the Merlin 1D. It weighs something like twice as much I believe, but the isp is good enough that that hardly matters right now. All this with an engine produced in the 50s. This thing is some serious bullshit, and if we can improve the thrust on it in future revisions I see no reason derivatives won't still be relevant for a literal lifetime. I'm not as confident in the second stage's longevity, but right now it is a solid and efficient design by the standards of what is out there, and the engine has a lot more thrust than it really needs to, so there is a lot that can be done with that stage. Putting a bigger tank on it being only the most obvious. I'd love to see either a good cryogenic upper stage as a replacement at some point, or at least something with isp that will remain competitive for longer, but this is definitely a thing we can work with.

    As for larger launch vehicles, there is clearly a limit to how many engines we can stick on a Prometheus first stage derivative without making it bigger (four, perhaps? At most, I would think.) Still, clustering a bunch of those first stage engines on a new, larger rocket should be pretty viable. I hear you can make a pretty capable launch vehicle by putting nine engines with those capabilities on a first stage, and one vacuum version on the second stage. Once we've worked on the thrust a bit, but we've got time.

    Honestly, if I was GM, I would be seriously considering finding a way to retcon the Dougal. It's that good.
     
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    So the engine itself is fine. It's suitable for the era, kinda, if a little overpowered due to the fuel used. What I need to start doing is paying attention to corrosive fuels and their impacts on flight.
    So look forward to some more negatives!
     
    Running a tally.
    4WheelSword said:
    So the engine itself is fine. It's suitable for the era, kinda, if a little overpowered due to the fuel used. What I need to start doing is paying attention to corrosive fuels and their impacts on flight.
    So look forward to some more negatives!
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    I don't think we'd have too many problems switching to Inhibited Red Fuming Nitric Acid when that becomes available, thankfully, but until we do, tagging the RFNA tanks with a reliability penalty due to the corrosive nature of the propellant would be a way to do it.
     
    [X] Go Elsewhere. There are other options (bring back the Prometheus)

    An easy explanation for why the corrosivity hasn't been an issue before is that our people were the scientists and engineers making the rockets, so they were well aware of the issues with the fuel and just what it would do. Now we're becoming a major organisation, which means that there's going to be much less of a personnel crunch.

    Perhaps this means that the people checking on what the corrosive fuel 's done aren't as paranoid as the earlier people were, at least at this stage. Which means they let things go if it's 'Good Enough' rather than bringing out the microscopes if it doesn't look perfect, and replacing things if there's a doubt about how good it is.
     
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    C7P9: An Old Friend
  • Threadmarks
    • "No, sir, I understand. Yes. Yes congressman, yes we're well funded down here. No, it's not a boondoggle." Brad wipes his forehead with a cloth and fights the urge to huff into the phone. Congress has been no help at all, neither with the Air Force nor with funding. Apparently a fully funded, congressionally appointed administration isn't looked upon kindly if it misses its calendar goals by a year or more. "No, we're going to get it done. I've got the best team around, we'll make it work. Thankyou, Sir. My best wishes to your wife."

    He hung up the phone and slumped into his chair, uncomfortable in a sweat stained shirt. He'd been trying his best to find a way around this whole Mustang debacle and nothing was coming. He'd made an off-hand remark to the Congressman in charge of the space committee, something along the lines of 'hey, if we had more money we could bring design in house and stop poking the Air Force' and it had been taken less than well. The chewing out he'd received was not the way he had planned to spend his afternoon.

    At least there were other options. The Hardtack maybe, or the Pegasus. Not the Hipparchus though. It might be cheap, but it's just so damn small. Though perhaps as an upper stage…

    No. Now isn't the time for heavy conversion work. You need a rocket and you need it now. Though any that you buy from the armed forces is going to need some work, and that's only going to get more and more frustrating as Hope-2 is readied for a ride to orbit.

    Although… there might be another way. You pick up your phone again and dial an internal number.

    "Andre? Tell me, how many of those Prometheus' did your boys build…"

    There are enough rockets for three launches. What's the next step?
    [ ] Try desperately to rush out a design before you run out of rockets. (Design Process after next launch).
    [ ] Go cap in hand to the armed forces for one of their designs (Cheap option, name the rocket).
    [ ] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)
     
  • Threadmarks
    • It's what I voted for last time, It's what I'm voting for now.
    [X] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)

    It might be expensive to restart production, but the rocket itself is amazingly cheap for its capabilities and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than trying to both design and build a new rocket on a rush job.
     
    [X] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)


    If the congress critters complain about restarting production of one of the most capable lift vehicles in the world at the moment, then they can either get the Chair Farce to share their rockets, or give us the budget to actually develop something new.
     
    In this time frame, our viable options as I see it are the Prometheus, or putting a prometheus upper stage on top of a Pegasus. There's something to be said for the second option as a cost saving measure and because the oxidizer on the Promethius is going to end up more problematic than it has been thus far. But still, that's a really nice engine, and fuck the air force.

    If we take the Pegasus, I would view it as something of a dead end. It's serviceable, and has an engine that is theoretically a bit more advanced in some ways and uses fuel I prefer, but the engines are fairly small and not notably capable or efficient. They could probably be refined into something that can match the Dougle's isp, but we have the Dougle now. For the short term, this may be the best choice since money really does matter and it might help prevent things from devolving into a feud with the air force, but it isn't really what I prefer.

    @4WheelSword, when you say the prometheus would be expensive, how expensive do you mean and how would it impact us? The designs you gave us have a promethues costing under half as much as a pegasus, let alone whatever we'd have to add as a second stage. Is this just startup cost, or would we get the pegasus at a discount because they are used and/or in mass production? If it's the latter, how will that discount look if we find ourselves needing extensively modified ones to meet our needs later on?
     
    brmj said:
    @4WheelSword, when you say the prometheus would be expensive, how expensive do you mean and how would it impact us? The designs you gave us have a promethues costing under half as much as a pegasus, let alone whatever we'd have to add as a second stage. Is this just startup cost, or would we get the pegasus at a discount because they are used and/or in mass production? If it's the latter, how will that discount look if we find ourselves needing extensively modified ones to meet our needs later on?
    Click to expand...
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    It'll be a contingent modifier on later votes.
    What that means is that there may be decisions later which are impacted by this choice. So, for instance, you might not be able to make the most costly choices in satellite design, launcher adoption or facility construction should they become an issue.
    It's all in the start up cost yes. Going into production is /very/ different to a few basically hand built launchers funded by EPL.
     
    If it's just startup cost, then sure. We can deal with it, and it will net us cheaper and more capable rockets in the long run.

    [X] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)
     
    [X] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)
     
    Off topic, but something the space nerds who hang out here might appreciate:

    Copenhagen Suborbitals

    This is a Danish amateur space program that is working towards eventually doing manned suborbital flights. They are sort of playing out the early space program, but with a shoe-string budget and access to modern manufacturing techniques and half a century of lessons learned. Last August they had their first completely successful launch to date, a technology demonstrator intended to aid in the development of systems for their eventual full scale rocket. Right now they are focused on scaling up their current engine into the pressure fed 100 kN alcohol/LOX engine they intend to use on their final rocket, and have recently switched to centripetal swirlers rather than the shower-head injector they had been using thus far. It's shaping up to be a pretty serious engine, though the isp for there current one is kind of abysmal and they probably won't manage to improve it all that much. They've also switched to gimbaling for control rather than the graphite vanes they had been using, and have a working prototype built around their 5kN rocket which is designed to scale up. One thing I really like about these guys is how, even if they don't always share everything, they give you a much fuller look at every step along the way and all of the systems than it is possible to get from a corporate or government project, or even an amateur project in the US due to just how bullshit ITAR is for anything space related.

    I might try and build their future manned rocket in this system at some point. It would probably be an interesting stress test of the system.
     
    [X] Restart production of the Prometheus (Expensive option)

    I don't like it, but it's a lot less risky than rushing a new design or going begging.
     
    C8P1: Hope Flies Again
  • Threadmarks
    • Andre had not expected to see his baby again. When NASA had been formed, all of EPL's work had been folded into the larger organisation. Some of the scientists had stayed with the university but many, like Andre, had come to the government program. He had looked forward to seeing the future of spaceflight - but he had also mourned the work he had done before. Prometheus was extinguished, he had known that deep in his soul.

    And yet here on the coast in the early dawns light, stands the eighty-five foot tall rocket that had flown the very first Alleghanian satellite into space. And this time atop it was a new Hope, another attempt to do all the things that had come before and more too. And the rumour was that Brad was trying to get a production line running for the damn thing.

    It was a future he couldn't have imagined. The space race, lofted on his rockets. Sure, there were limitations. NASA would have to upgrade one day. But for now… For now, the future is his.


    Brad frowned at the most recent budget report. Restarting production of the prometheus - and expanding it no less - was expensive almost beyond belief. 1958 was to be an expensive year and 1959 even more so. Hopefully Congress would see the necessity of proper funding. If not, then Prometheus may well be the biggest boondoggle he has ever been involved in.

    Dropping the report onto his desk, Bradley stands and puts on his jacket. He has more important things to think about today than money. Today is launch day.

    You can order the launch crews to focus on one area. Select an area to focus on:
    [ ] Ground preparations - blowing up on the pad is not ideal
    [ ] Flight operations - A failure in flight would end the mission
    [ ] Orbital science - we can't have another satellite fail.
     
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