Return of the Skarrenawi, a Warhammer Fantasy hill dwarf clan.

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Stop it. Do not use me as a bludgeon. I made it clear that the ongoing discussion was not something I enjoyed.
And again, my bad for my part in it.

This is why i try to argue with provided examples from say updates and such, so that it isn't just an appeal to authority but couched in setting logic and concerns that might arise therein.

I know i've been bullheaded before and took your advice to heart, such as pointing out that plenty of people were arguing for that option in good faith and made good points, as well as pointing out the good sides of the option itself.

If i failed to do that well enough, then I am sorry. and for you having to come in and mediate this. I honestly thought we were settled when @Kairos pointed out what the oath was intended to be, seemed pretty settled to me.
 
Making this position and future city secure is possible it's very possible since we are Dawi and can build some very impressive walls and forts, the problem with this position is that we would have to build it from the ground up as we don't have natural defenses so it would be very expensive and take time.
Thats fair enough, but I personally would feel a lot more comfortable if we built our impressive fortifications while behind some solid natural fortifications as well.
 
Thats fair enough, but I personally would feel a lot more comfortable if we built our impressive fortifications while behind some solid natural fortifications as well.
Completely fair point, and it's something I've also been really considering, personally, my second favorite after soll is sonnefurt cause of how defensible it is and how it's far away from most everything and isn't on the frontline, it would be very expensive though which is why I am not leaning towards it
 
Thats fair enough, but I personally would feel a lot more comfortable if we built our impressive fortifications while behind some solid natural fortifications as well.
And i said more than a few times that the option does lend itself to our wagon culture pretty well at least to an extent that we can more or less do a roman thing of setting up an armed fort every...single...time we settle down for the night.

That will keep us safe from a lot, and take a solid army to do damage now that we have a proper army and might get more on the way.

But again, the big breaker for me was that it would, until we can provide them with sufficient reason to think otherwise, put off the Karaz Ankor Dawi from settling with us. I even gave due credit to the idea that we could change it, but that first impressions still matter, that it would take time to catch up to where we would be if we chose somewhere else.
 
Something to consider is that The dwarf river junction option is also the only one to have excellent connection to the river's their a lot of trade we could do from their and since we'd be smack dab in the middle of all three factions, well all their economies would benifit though hopefully we balance it well enough to not see a raiding party head our way. Then again, we'd be sitting at a split in the river for defence,s and we should by then hopefully have more than just the natural defences set up. Who knows, maybe it becomes neutral ground.

Mayto explicitly said that as long as we don't build the sewers, we will not have problems with Skaven

I get the strange feeling that no matter what we do Skaven will eventually become a problem just because of how many of them there are. Also I'm pretty sure we can build some stuff to deal with them in the long run.

We have no obligation to even participate in the Great War against Chaos, other than the one we impose on ourselves.
Most dwarf kings sat it out completely, in fact. We could just send a large shipment of food and weapons to (hypothetical) Magnus' army, and have outdone most dwarven kings.

While true, we'd have a lot more incentive to participate given that we'd ideally be trading with the empire at that point, and we'd be at more risk than other dwarf holds. Though that is a distant issue compared to setting up and surviving and then thriving in the middle of a civil war.
 
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Something to consider is that The dwarf river junction option is also the only one to have excellent connection to the river's their a lot of trade we could do from their and since we'd be smack dab in the middle of all three factions, well all their economies would benifit though hopefully we balance it well enough to not see a raiding party head our way. Then again, we'd be sitting at a split in the river for defence,s and we should by then hopefully have more than just the natural defences set up. Who knows, maybe it becomes neutral ground.

That's what I tried to bring up for that one, at least in part, it is one of the more fought over ones because it is a worthy prize for a reason. It is pretty solidly placed for resources and trade both, which can make the difference for effective development and enticing settlement of both Dawi of all kinds and humans of all kinds if we so choose.

That point about becoming neutral ground is true but I imagine that we'll want to take a side if only because people will try to force it or try to push us out if we do not already.

Best to pick and choose after getting to know them and being honest about it.

I get the strange feeling that no matter what we do Skaven will eventually become a problem just because of how many of them there are. Also I'm pretty sure we can build some stuff to deal with them in the long run.

I *think* the river sol option will mean they will have a harder time just casually tunneling because of the soggy soil but i do agree that skaven will be an issue no matter what.

But as Tilea shows, it is possible to bear with it and we will be better suited than them.
 
And i said more than a few times that the option does lend itself to our wagon culture pretty well at least to an extent that we can more or less do a roman thing of setting up an armed fort every...single...time we settle down for the night.

That will keep us safe from a lot, and take a solid army to do damage now that we have a proper army and might get more on the way.
I am not convinced it would standup to beast men herd with a significant group of minotaurs.

Completely fair point, and it's something I've also been really considering, personally, my second favorite after soll is sonnefurt cause of how defensible it is and how it's far away from most everything and isn't on the frontline, it would be very expensive though which is why I am not leaning towards it
If it was not for the lack of mining that would be my first choice as well.
 
I am not convinced it would standup to beast men herd with a significant group of minotaurs.
Which is another reason why it did not appeal to me so I see where you're coming from in that regard too. I am just trying to be more than doom and gloom. Like I said, repeatedly, @Mayto doesnt' do trap options or poisoned fruits/well options, but there are positives and negatives to them and I just want to help people keep both in mind.
 
But again, the big breaker for me was that it would, until we can provide them with sufficient reason to think otherwise, put off the Karaz Ankor Dawi from settling with us. I even gave due credit to the idea that we could change it, but that first impressions still matter, that it would take time to catch up to where we would be if we chose somewhere else.
Frankly speaking, I don't think that number would be very high in the first place; We're a Thane with no Hammerers, leading a clan of Gazani, trying to build a city on the surface after we were politely told the High King wants nothing to do with us. It took a 90+ roll to get the interest of a single family of dwarfs who were already thinking of leaving anyway.
 
Frankly speaking, I don't think that number would be very high in the first place; We're a Thane with no Hammerers, leading a clan of Gazani, trying to build a city on the surface after we were politely told the High King wants nothing to do with us. It took a 90+ roll to get the interest of a single family of dwarfs who were already thinking of leaving anyway.

I don't think we'd be getting any considerable number no matter what, but choosing soll makes us have to rely on imperial dwarf engineers, instead of being able to try to convince some 'radical' zhufbar engineers. Even the most radical engineers just want to make new inventions, not live far away from mountains.
 
Regarding the Karaz Ankor, River Sol, and being seen as 'ragingly psychotic'.

People need to understand that with Dawi Honor and Communal Culture, and how young Borki is, a sizeable portion of the Dawi Population and Elders will shake their heads at a young beardling being suicidally stupid yes. But they'll also grumble quietly but insistently about the High King and his Heir falling in their duties and insulting a Beardling so much that they drove him insane.

That's why Mayto says there is a chance and that once proven we'll get to reconnect. If we die, we'll just be a fable about the hubris of youth and what happens when High Kings get their heads up their asses and fail in their duties. If we succeed, we are a middle finger to the Lineage of High Kings, and a direct example of the High King and his Heirs being Grox headed dumbfucks.

At that point even if Conservative Dawi will still think us spiritually ill, they'll also be very insistent on the High King making amends because honor demands it, because we'd be a living testament of their failure and shame otherwise. Especially when we have Bugman with us. So long as we do not deliberately insult the Karaz Ankor, it'll be fine in the long run.

Assuming we don't get killed by Orks granted.
 
I am not convinced it would standup to beast men herd with a significant group of minotaurs.
Most brayherds are immensely lucky if they manage to get one minotaur to tag along for a fight, let alone a significant group. And besides that, on the banks of the Soll we'll be dozens of miles away from the nearest forest. It takes a full-on Beastlord to get Beastmen to range out far beyond the treeline, and frankly at that point we'll have bigger problems.
 
Regarding the Karaz Ankor, River Sol, and being seen as 'ragingly psychotic'.

People need to understand that with Dawi Honor and Communal Culture, and how young Borki is, a sizeable portion of the Dawi Population and Elders will shake their heads at a young beardling being suicidally stupid yes. But they'll also grumble quietly but insistently about the High King and his Heir falling in their duties and insulting a Beardling so much that they drove him insane.

That's why Mayto says there is a chance and that once proven we'll get to reconnect. If we die, we'll just be a fable about the hubris of youth and what happens when High Kings get their heads up their asses and fail in their duties. If we succeed, we are a middle finger to the Lineage of High Kings, and a direct example of the High King and his Heirs being Grox headed dumbfucks.

At that point even if Conservative Dawi will still think us spiritually ill, they'll also be very insistent on the High King making amends because honor demands it, because we'd be a living testament of their failure and shame otherwise. Especially when we have Bugman with us. So long as we do not deliberately insult the Karaz Ankor, it'll be fine in the long run.

Assuming we don't get killed by Orks granted.
Now this? This is an excellent argument for it. I'd still rather choose other options that don't put us in that position because it comes against the 'needing to make up for lost time' concern with having to get their respect later that i brought up a few times but thats very well articulated on how it is possible to things better in the future and why i kept that open as a possibility.

Also dont forget beastmen or bandits on the potential enders. :p
 
The Legality of Dwarf Settlement in the Empire and the State of the Umgdawi. New
Legality of Dwarf settlement:
Legally speaking, Dwarf settlements which are not built into human cities within the Empire, are independent realms. Dawi can legally find a spot and build an independent town, mine, (technically a city, but nobody ever did that.). But the land they are on, is granted on two conditions -from the Emperor-.

1: They must actively be teaching humans crafts.
2: They must maintain and support local infrastructure

Now, in the millenia since then, you have had Emperors changing requirements, cities changing the laws on the Dwarfs among them, and the general confusion that came along with the civil war. They have largely become insular and try to avoid conflict around them.

But in essence, if there are no humans living where they settle, then can do what they want. And without a recognized Emperor, nobody can take their land away, so long they uphold their vow to Sigmar.



Umgdawi in the Empire
The Umgdawi arrived in the Empire in two general phases.

The original migration.
-1500 IC to -1000 IC
Dawi survivors from the fall of Karak Varn that settled among the Belthani and taught them to work with copper and lived among the pastoralists. These communities formed the foundations of what would become the many Dwarf Quarters of Imperial cities. Without their royals, they switched to each community being led by a Council made up of Clan Elders.

When the Teutogen and other warlike human tribes moved into the Empire, they drove out the Belthani, with the Dawi unable to stop this, and largely just allowing the conflict to rage around them. (Starting to see a pattern?).

Alaric the Mad's uplifting:
After the original wave of settlement by Dawi ended, and a split developed between those who lived there since the Belthani, and those who were sent by the Everpeak to teach the newly arrived human tribes iron metalworking and masonry. But these groups sent to help the Umgi rarely stayed very long.

Sigmar's invitation.
-50 IC to 100 IC.
Continuing on from his father and grandfather, Sigmar aggressively encouraged Dawi settling among the empire. Offering them functional independence for their settlements in exchange for the above noted conditions, and them owing military aid to the Emperor. This offer was largely taken by impoverished clans and holdless Dawi. They moved in to find there already being the original Dawi settlers, and they moved in with them. This meant that many of these settlers switched away from the original Dawi ruling system with a royal clan, to each community being led by a Council of Elders.

Current state:
The Umgdawi are all over the Empire. They have their own guilds, master crafts, and largely serve as the backbone of the Empire's engineering and mining industries. There's at least single digit percentages of Umgdawi in all the major cities of the Empire, and a lot of them spread out through the rest of the Empire.

Most Umgdawi do live in fortified Dwarf Quarters, and often need to aid in the defense of the human settlements in which they live. Due to the disdain towards them from the Karaz Ankor, they do not really have an option to return to the Holds.
 
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How large is the umgdawi population ? Its struck me that they might have a lower rate of attrition compared to the dawi and generally higher population growth
So how do they compare to the dawi population in the holds ?
 
How large is the umgdawi population ? Its struck me that they might have a lower rate of attrition compared to the dawi and generally higher population growth
So how do they compare to the dawi population in the holds ?

Nuln at least has a significant enough population of umgdawi that is was chosen to be the place they built the imperial gunnery school, along with its trade connections. So its enough skilled dwarfs nearby to warrant building a major foundry for them to help run.
 
How large is the umgdawi population ? Its struck me that they might have a lower rate of attrition compared to the dawi and generally higher population growth
So how do they compare to the dawi population in the holds ?
In total across the Empire? Maybe two to three hundred thousand. From a starting population of a few hundred, through generations of conflict, war, civil war, etc.
 
Legality of Dwarf settlement:
Legally speaking, Dwarf settlements which are not built into human cities within the Empire, are independent realms. Dawi can legally find a spot and build an independent town, mine, (technically a city, but nobody ever did that.). But the land they are on, is granted on two conditions -from the Emperor-.

1: They must actively be teaching humans crafts.
2: They must maintain and support local infrastructure

Now, in the millenia since then, you have had Emperors changing requirements, cities changing the laws on the Dwarfs among them, and the general confusion that came along with the civil war. They have largely become insular and try to avoid conflict around them.

Interesting that the note is specifically "From the emperor" which I think is meant to prevent the Dwarves from being constantly uprooted and harassed by local and mid level to the elector count nobles? Otherwise youd have constant "No this is mine now"s from foolish nobles and even then there's STILL those that do it

and as you show here, even then within that framework, the frame itself keeps getting altered so the Dwarves are more encouraged to, well, hold up as it were to cope with the constant shifting landscape around them.

The more things change, the more they stay the same amirite?

Umgdawi in the Empire
The Umgdawi arrived in the Empire in two general phases.

2 main waves hmm?

The original migration.
-1500 IC to -1000 IC
Dawi survivors from the fall of Karak Varn that settled among the Belthani and taught them to work with copper and lived among the pastoralists. These communities formed the foundations of what would become the many Dwarf Quarters of Imperial cities. Without their royals, they switched to each community being led by a Council made up of Clan Elders.

When the Teutogen and other warlike human tribes moved into the Empire, they drove out the Belthani, with the Dawi unable to stop this, and largely just allowing the conflict to rage around them. (Starting to see a pattern?).

Alaric the Mad's uplifting:
After the original wave of settlement by Dawi ended, and a split developed between those who lived there since the Belthani, and those who were sent by the Everpeak to teach the newly arrived human tribes iron metalworking and masonry. But these groups sent to help the Umgi rarely stayed very long.

Oh that's interesting, they tried human uplifting beforehand and were doing decently at redeveloping a civilization, but then more tribes came in and went for the nice pastoral regions that were developed because they were fertile and with less danger. With the Dwarves basically just keeping themselves neutral because to do otherwise would be to fight a battle they could not win.

Yeah I am seeing a pattern :p

Huh, so there was a secondary culture at that time of those that came to teach and only stayed if they were really drawn to it or just didn't want to return, and those that had been there since the beginning and just adapted.

Sigmar's invitation.
-50 IC to 100 IC.
Continuing on from his father and grandfather, Sigmar aggressively encouraged Dawi settling among the empire. Offering them functional independence for their settlements in exchange for the above noted conditions, and them owing military aid to the Emperor. This offer was largely taken by impoverished clans and holdless Dawi. They moved in to find there already being the original Dawi settlers, and they moved in with them. This meant that many of these settlers switched away from the original Dawi ruling system with a royal clan, to each community being led by a Council of Elders.

Ngl this was really smart of Sigmar and is arguably one of the things that has allowed the Empire to survive like it has.

And yup, similar to what we're trying to do now, he went for those that had little to lose by trying and everything to gain by doing so.

Current state:
The Umgdawi are all over the Empire. They have their own guilds, master crafts, and largely serve as the backbone of the Empire's engineering and mining industries. There's at least single digit percentages of Umgdawi in all the major cities of the Empire, and a lot of them spread out through the rest of the Empire.

Most Umgdawi do live in fortified Dwarf Quarters, and often need to aid in the defense of the human settlements in which they live. Due to the disdain towards them from the Karaz Ankor, they do not really have an option to return to the Holds

That is no small amount of dwarves, all of whom can and might well make a difference in military and economy.

The no real option to return is partly why I do want to encourage both Umgdawi and Karaz Ankor dawi to be able to settle and mingle. Maybe the current generations can't return, but perhaps those with blood ties and contacts with the Karaz Ankor clans might be able to do so in the future...or at least be able to call upon them for a joint effort to retake a hold.

In total across the Empire? Maybe two to three hundred thousand. From a starting population of a few hundred, through generations of conflict, war, civil war, etc.

That is no small amount indeed, and would I be wrong to say that part of why they are able to grow such numbers is 2fold: Partly the lack of the constant sieges from underground that the hold dawi are under and partly because in the case of the human cities which *do* have them, which is most, the attrition is, to put it coldly, eaten up by the humans rather than the dwarves?

So it's a combination of less direct attrition which allows the decent birthrate of the dwarves (4 kids on average if not more) to survive longer as well as human meatshields to take the brunt of the skaven trouble.
 
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Yeah, thats about right. Most Umgdawi are craftsdwarfs and middle class to lower upper class, and generally avoid much of the general attrition. Although they will fight to defend their cities and homes.

The population growth is largely just because they do not have to wage the low intensity warfare to hold the lower levels of Mines and Deeps of their home Karaks.

Sewerjack anti-skaven duty is mild compared to the underground wars of the Karaz Ankor.
 
Yeah, if we actually set in River Soll, migrating Dawi WILL come to us so...it will be interesting.
Well not anyone from places like zhuffbar or Azul which for the former is the deal breaker since I want us to get some radical zhuffbar engineers to settle down in our new city and make us a Industrial power and maybe get us things like gyrocopters and steam tanks or atleast steam engines. River soll will likely bar us from getting them barring occasional workers on pay not settlers.
In total across the Empire? Maybe two to three hundred thousand. From a starting population of a few hundred, through generations of conflict, war, civil war, etc.
I assume highest concentration of dawi is middenheim since their the royal clans of the middle mountain kingdom now basically calling middenheim for a Millenia now and places like altdorf and nuln.

Also almost the entirety of middenheims engineering guild are dawi and they got their mages school since ulricans are weirdly very pro Magic.
 
Two to three hundred thousand is not a small number but even with going for Sol we won't get more then maybe 5 % of those moving. That's not nothing tbf. But with recent books coming out we know the ever peak alone has 900 000 dawi, at the time of Karl franz, alone.

Edit: not saying we even get 0.1 % of the ever peak dawi but the worlds edge mountains are the most populated dwarven realm.
 
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Two to three hundred thousand is not a small number but even with going for Sol we won't get more then maybe 5 % of those moving. That's not nothing tbf. But with recent books coming out we know the ever peak alone has 900 000 dawi, at the time of Karl franz, alone.
Pretty much, we're not likely to get more than a percentage of either but a percentage of both will still have more oomph than one or the other if we're looking purely at numbers.

But I didn't want to make it a minmax of the population matter
 
Well not anyone from places like zhuffbar or Azul which for the former is the deal breaker since I want us to get some radical zhuffbar engineers to settle down in our new city and make us a Industrial power and maybe get us things like gyrocopters and steam tanks or atleast steam engines. River soll will likely bar us from getting them barring occasional workers on pay not settlers.
I meant ones from across the Empire and further.
You are building the first Dawi city in the open in millenia. This brazen act in line with your oath, will draw surface-dwelling Dawi to your banner.
It is actually what catches my attention on the River Soll choice.
 
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