The problem is, carrying out the physical labor of building walls and roads earns us goodwill, but lack of goodwill isn't the reason Bovianum is starving. Lack of food is the reason for the famine. We can't fix lack of food without killing bandits and rebels and securing lines of supply, which means that in the short run this is a more productive use of our time. We can build roads after we've beaten the bandits and rebels in the immediate area.

The only reason I'm advocating spending even one action on construction work right now in "Plan Even Trench, Ordered Line" is because I think we need a fortified camp to ensure the security of our own forces and minimize the risk of any disastrous, revolt-provoking incidents between the legion and the townsmen.
 
[X] Plan Slow & Steady
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Mar 22, 2018 at 10:36 PM, finished with 1590 posts and 33 votes.
 
The Samnites have hated and warred with the Romans for centuries, I'm just curious why people think some acts of goodwill will measurably change that right now.

On building walls, it will only make the settlement harder to retake if it ultimately turns against Rome. The better solution would be to eradicate the source of the problems plaguing the city and the area, as that would accomplish the same effect.
 
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The Samnites have hated and warred with the Romans for centuries, I'm just curious why people think some acts of goodwill will measurably change that right now.

On building walls, it will only make the settlement harder to retake if it ultimately turns against Rome. The better solution would be to eradicate the source of the problems plaguing the city and the area, as that would accomplish the same effect.


Oh no, goodwill will do jackshit for attitude towards Rome, but that's not why you persue em .
No its goodwill towards the person who commissioned such works. A people can hate another with an unrivalled passion, yet consider select few amongst thier enemies to be almost one of ours.

Gauls sided with certain Romans and even submitted to them, and so did many a different people.

Personal loyalty is what is achievable and desirable not loyalty to empire.
Thus this feeds into the good cop bad cop route .

As for walls, them being a civic symbol above thier defensive utility would result in :

The town being ostracised by the rest of samninum since its heart now bears the Roman mark.

The town rising in fury and destroying the abomination that is the wall.

The town accepts the wall and the duality of civic Hood it represent.

Samninum considers the act a roman concession for by roman hands a samnite hold was raised .
Rome sees it as roman submission for the same reason.

Samninum sees it as roman mockery and Rome vice versa.

It feeds into I am the law, for a town cannot claim such without a wall.

Its seen as a show of roman might.

A comet descends and wipes the region .
 
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I can see what you mean, but I don't see that characterization (or the characterization that being impartial will make the Samnites like Atellus, or something to that effect) jiving with Mercator's words:

"You should not have suffered the Priestess to live, Tribune. The Samnites will hate you all the more for that mercy."

You cock your head quizzically. "They're a stubborn sort, to be certain, but I cannot see how they would begrudge me sparing their goddess."

The centurion snorts. "Their goddess, and much more besides. These folk are obsessed with disease and death. There is a shrine to Mephitis in every Samnite home, to ward off spirits of plague and sickness. To them, an invasion is contamination, a sickness which must be purged. And Rome? Well, Rome is the greatest disease of all."

He looks over at you for the first time, his face shrouded by the gathering dusk. "You are no fool, that much is clear. But do you even know the job of the priestess whose life you spared?" Without waiting for an answer, he forges on. "If an invasion is sickness, then they must be healed of it, must they not? Indeed, every Samnite who comes into contact with an invader must 'purify' himself by bathing in the Pools at Amscantus. They cleanse themselves of Rome as we would cleanse our homes of plague."

He spits in the dust. "Samnite superstition, obviously. Their gods have no power in Rome -- and make no mistake, Tribune Atellus, this is Rome. They just don't know it yet. But leaving them their Pools will leave them hope. Hope that they can still be purified. Hope that Rome might still be resisted."

His voice is not accusing. Mercator is Roman to the bone, and even his harshest words are filled with the soldier's cool respect, but his words are more than pointed enough for you to gather his meaning.

You blink, then gather yourself. "Had I known --"

Mercator cuts in, his voice cutting through the night air. "Yes. Had you known. Had Sertorius known. But you didn't, and he didn't. Neither of you stepped foot in Samnium before this war. Some of us have fought here our whole lives." Your eyes flicker to the mottled, pink-brown scar which winds from the base of his jaw to the ridge of his forehead.

The primus catches your gaze and smiles grimly. "Yes, a gift from the Samnites, earned the last time I was here. I fought at Aeclanum, under Sulla. He made mistakes too. He left this wretched town standing, in the hopes that it would remind the Samnites that no walls can resist the power of Rome. Yet here we are again." A disgusted look crosses his face, and for a long moment he looks as if he is about to say something more.

Instead, he turns his steed away with a flick of his wrist, trotting her slowly towards the camp. Just when you think he is gone, however, his voice calls out from the gathering darkness.

"Walls or no walls, Tribune, they will always rise up. Leave only ashes, and they can rise from nothing."​

They wash themselves, literally, of the Romans. They will not take a Roman wall (or whatever other word you might replace this with) kindly.

What we think of today as kindness, the Samnites will take as Roman weaknesses to exploit. If only to strengthen themselves for the moment and keep an eye out for the opportunity to repay unto Rome.

ADDENDUM: And having to accept Roman aid will make them hate Rome all the more for it.
 
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The Samnites have hated and warred with the Romans for centuries, I'm just curious why people think some acts of goodwill will measurably change that right now.
Because people usually hate the idea of starving. Romans providing them with food would help with their affection.

Overall, Bovianum is supposed to be the carrot. We showed our stick at Aeclanum, here we play lawbringer, peacekeeper and breadwinner.

[X] Plan Slow & Steady

I expect complications because of the Gauls, but this is my reasoning:

We should build an encampment so that the hostile Samnites don't have to garrison our men, not to mention that it explicitely says that we increase our response time, not to mention that it provides the city with a good substitute for a wall while not risking the city itself to shut us out behind it.

Second, hunting down the rebels. Gemino has been threatening villages and making sure that they don't provide Bovianum. Well, he basically extorts them, so he will likely be hated by both the villagers around Bovianum and by a good chunk of the citizens. It would provide us with good will, while probably starting a small trickle of food coming into the city. Not much, but I expect that to take up sooner and later. Also, we provide the dissenters with a good example of what happens if you cross Rome or those under her protection.

Because of that and expected combat, we should train our men. Losing an engagement would be catastrophic. In addition to that, Aesernia is simply far too close for my taste.

I also expect this to be more effective than hunting down small bandit groups across the region. Better first secure a road which gives us a limited area we need to protect before we stretch ourselves thin by sending out a cohort into the boonies.

Lastly, securing the road to Beventum is risky, but high reward. We manage that, we are for the time being set. And the city is thankfully in the opposite direction of Aesernia.
 
Because people usually hate the idea of starving. Romans providing them with food would help with their affection.

Overall, Bovianum is supposed to be the carrot. We showed our stick at Aeclanum, here we play lawbringer, peacekeeper and breadwinner.

People generally hate dying too, did that make the priestess grateful to Rome?
 
[X] Plan "Order & Logisitics"
-[X] Whip Them Into Order
-[X] Build an Encampment
-[X] Liberate the Towns
-[X] Restore the Roads
-[X] I Am The Law
-[X] Willing Advocate
-[X] Forge a Route
 
In that case it was Romans killing everyone she held dear. Here it's Samnite rebels starving other Samnites.
The difference in our approaches right now are that you are emphasizing the reasons why things will be different this time, while I am emphasizing the reasons why it will end the same. I'm not sure which one is the right one, but for my part I trust Mercator's assessment of the overwhelming general context with the Samnites. I am just skeptical that Atellus can ever earn meaningfully affection with a people that ritually cleanses themselves of his presence.

In a more general sense, just because impartial rule has emerged as the norm and standard of our day (and for very good and justified reasons) does not mean it will be the best in all historical situations, and remember that the Romans' objectives are meaningfully distinct in the details from what a modern military or state would aim for.
 
The difference in our approaches right now are that you are emphasizing the reasons why things will be different this time, while I am emphasizing the reasons why it will end the same. I'm not sure which one is the right one, but for my part I trust Mercator's assessment of the overwhelming general context with the Samnites. I am just skeptical that Atellus can ever earn meaningfully affection with a people that ritually cleanses themselves of his presence.
Yes, yes, the Samnites will always rise up and up again. It's the reason Bovianum bend the knee the moment Sertorius stepped into Samnium and the reason why the Hipirni decided to sit this one out.
Since time immemorial, the fiercest and deadliest of all the races of the Samnites have been the Hirpini, the wolves of the Apennines. Cowed by Sulla during the Civil War, the Hirpini have chosen to keep their heads down and submit to the will of Rome -- thus far.
A center of Samnite culture, art, and history, it has long been a focal point for rebellion and insurrection against Rome.
Guess what they didn't do this time. The myth of the unbending Samnite. They aren't a monolithic block, they are human, and just like with every civilisation ever you can't sum them up in a word.
Gaul can be pacified, Hispania can be pacified, Illyria can and so we can pacify Samnium. And really, it doesn't matter if they love Rome or take advantage of their Roman citizenship. It doesn't matter now, it won't matter in three centuries when their descendants speak Latin and think of themselves as Roman.

You know who tried heavy-handed, slap them down tactics before? Sulla, whose current mess we are dealing with. Unless we destroy them utterly, tear down their cities and sell them all into slavery beating them down will just move the next war down a decade. Because that is what happened last time, and the time before.

Because honestly, a few of them should be smart enough to recognise that this is pointless. Even if they beat back this legion, the Senate won't let them go. And next time it will be five pissed-off legions.
 
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I can see what you mean, but I don't see that characterization (or the characterization that being impartial will make the Samnites like Atellus, or something to that effect) jiving with Mercator's words:

They wash themselves, literally, of the Romans. They will not take a Roman wall (or whatever other word you might replace this with) kindly.

What we think of today as kindness, the Samnites will take as Roman weaknesses to exploit. If only to strengthen themselves for the moment and keep an eye out for the opportunity to repay unto Rome.

ADDENDUM: And having to accept Roman aid will make them hate Rome all the more for it.
Um, you do realize that Mercator's characterization of the Samnites may well be about as biased as some modern guy ranting about

"Damn [insert Islamophobic slur here]s hate our freedom and want to convert us all to Islam at gunpoint and you softies are helping us by not killing them all and stabbing their corpses with white phosphorus bayonets and then nuking Mecca and letting pigs loose in the bomb craters so when they go there they get bitten by giant mutant radioactive pigs!"

We shouldn't assume that Mercator is the only perspective that's relevant here, or that literally every single Samnite is a hard-eyed stone-cold motherfucker out to murder us at the earliest possible opportunity. I strongly suspect a lot of individual Samnites would rather (for instance) be fed by Romans than starved by anti-Roman guerillas. Notably, Bovianum was being besieged and cut off by bandits and guerillas BEFORE they asked for Roman help, and they are one of the largest cultural centers in Samnium. Clearly, the Samnites themselves are more divided than you might believe if you assumed Visellia Tertia (the priestess) was a representative sample of the population.
 
Yes, yes, the Samnites will always rise up and up again. It's the reason Bovianum bend the knee the moment Sertorius stepped into Samnuim and the reason why the Hipirni decided to sit this one out.

Guess what they didn't do this time. The myth of the unbending Samnite. They aren't a monolithic block, they are human, and just like with every civilisation ever you can't sum them up in a word.

Gaul can be pacified, Hispania can be pacified, Illyria can and so we can pacify Samnium. And really, it doesn't matter if they love Rome or take advantage of their Roman citizenship. It doesn't matter now, it won't matter in three centuries when their descendants speak Latin and think of themselves as Roman.

You know who tried heavy-handed, slap them down tactics before? Sulla, whose current mess we are dealing with. Unless we destroy them utterly, tear down their cities and sell them all into slavery beating them down will just move the next war down a decade. Because that is what happened last time, and the time before.

Because honestly, a few of them should be smart enough to recognise that this is pointless. Even if they beat back this legion, the Senate won't let them go. And next time it will be five pissed-off legions.

Yes, not all of Samnium has risen up. But this has been going for centuries since the wars (which included the Battle of the Caudine Forks) that broke their power originally. They rose up to help Pyrrhus. They rose up to help Hannibal. They submitted because of the enduring power of Rome, just as some are now, and they will keep trying as opportunities arise, just as some are now. If I thought our treatment of the Samnites would only affect our relations with the Samnites, I'd be perfectly happy to settle with the "just" approach. But it will not. Remember the conflict between the legionnaires and the equites? That resolved fairly well, but it will be exponentially worse with regards the Samnites. It will affect Atellus's standing with his troops. I also think a harsher hand will enable more efficient pacification.

And a heavy hand does not necessarily mean punishing the Samnites just for the hell out if it. It means cracking down -hard- on dissension and rebellion. It might extend far at times, but I'm not getting the "raze the city for fun" vibes from the option.

Rome gave the carrot to the Italian states that most wanted from the Social Wars. It is the Samnites that continue on. And the recognition that Rome won't ever let them go has hardly stopped them before.

Um, you do realize that Mercator's characterization of the Samnites may well be about as biased as some modern guy
....
We shouldn't assume that Mercator is the only perspective that's relevant here, or that literally every single Samnite is a hard-eyed stone-cold motherfucker out to murder us at the earliest possible opportunity. I strongly suspect a lot of individual Samnites would rather (for instance) be fed by Romans than starved by anti-Roman guerillas. Notably, Bovianum was being besieged and cut off by bandits and guerillas BEFORE they asked for Roman help, and they are one of the largest cultural centers in Samnium. Clearly, the Samnites themselves are more divided than you might believe if you assumed Visellia Tertia (the priestess) was a representative sample of the population.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that Mercator has been fighting for years in Samnium. I am aware of the biases that have undoubtedly arisen. But with that bias comes experience and knowledge, and he was right with respect to the priestess (for instance, incorporating his knowledge of her priesthood to draw conclusions of her behavior). Even if you don't agree with his recommendations or the conclusions he has drawn, he has far deeper insight into their culture and lifestyles than Atellus or Sertorius could hope to amass even within a year, in all likelihood. At a factual level, those insights hold. Do you have a better source other than our modern perspective, with all its own biases? Would Atellus?

Nor do I claim that every single Samnite would murder a Roman child in her sleep and laugh about it. The Samnites are not homogeneous or some unitary hive mind. But the general trend of the wind blows clear, and a harder approach would be more effective at leveraging what has been effective - strength. Feed them, yes, and that will help. But be hard, and that would serve both Atellus's and Rome's interests better. Atellus is better at intimidating them anyway. Once their bellies are full, their minds can turn to other things.
 
[X] Plan Even Trench, Ordered Line
-[X] Whip Them Into Order
-[X] Secure a Route
-[X] Defeat the Rebels
-[X] Build an Encampment
-[X] I Am The Law
-[X] Willing Advocate
-[X] Sharing
 
Yes, not all of Samnium has risen up. But this has been going for centuries since the wars (which included the Battle of the Caudine Forks) that broke their power originally. They rose up to help Pyrrhus. They rose up to help Hannibal. They submitted because of the enduring power of Rome, just as some are now, and they will keep trying as opportunities arise, just as some are now.
The Samnites were far from the only group of Italians who repeatedly rose up against Rome when outside forces powerful enough to threaten it arose. The Samnites were in the process of being subdued at the end of the Social Wars, which ended prematurely due to the political disturbances in Rome that form the "near-field" backstory of the situation we are now in- the conflict between Sulla and Marius.

You're interpreting this campaign as "the Social Wars are over, only the Samnites are still refusing the carrot, they must be invincibly anti-Roman." I'm interpreting it as "the Social Wars aren't over, every other group on the peninsula has been pressured into accepting Roman hegemony in exchange for a place in that hegemony, except that one group we didn't get around to."

To you, they're the unconquerable holdouts a la Masada. To me, they're unfinished business.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that Mercator has been fighting for years in Samnium. I am aware of the biases that have undoubtedly arisen. But with that bias comes experience and knowledge, and he was right with respect to the priestess (for instance, incorporating his knowledge of her priesthood to draw conclusions of her behavior). Even if you don't agree with his recommendations or the conclusions he has drawn, he has far deeper insight into their culture and lifestyles than Atellus or Sertorius could hope to amass even within a year, in all likelihood. At a factual level, those insights hold. Do you have a better source other than our modern perspective, with all its own biases? Would Atellus?
Atellus surely would. Among his own personal associates are many experienced veterans; Mercator is not the only one. Indeed, comparing the centurion of the Second Cohort to the First is instructive; we see that Mercator's personality is different, and likely to influence his perspective. Our current senior centurion might well say something more like "yeah, the Samnites are bastards, but they'll see reason after we give them enough good swift kicks to the ass." Tercerus hasn't been lecturing us on how impossible the Sixth Legion's mission is, either.

And that's a key point. The original mission of the Sixth. Sertorius is an educated man with extensive connections, and he coordinated closely with other senior Roman leaders before undertaking this campaign. Rome would not raise a legion to carry out an unworkable plan of action, when a simpler, more brutal, more likely to succeed option was available. And remember, the original plan for the Sixth was to finish the Social Wars by subduing, rather than destroying, the Samnites.
 
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[X] Plan Hierarchy of Needs
Adhoc vote count started by JamesShazbond on Mar 22, 2018 at 2:55 PM, finished with 1567 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Slow & Steady
    -[x] Whip Them Into Shape
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[x] Forge a Route
    [X] Plan Even Trench, Ordered Line
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Sharing
    [x] Plan Hierarchy of Needs
    [X] Plan Trained Soldiers
    -[x] Whip Them Into Shape
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Sharing
    [X] Plan A Heavy Roman Hand
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[X] A Harsh Hand
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Appropriation
    [X] Plan "Order & Logisitics"
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[X] Liberate the Towns
    -[X] Restore the Roads
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[x] Forge a Route
    [X] Plan Stannis
 
Yes, not all of Samnium has risen up. But this has been going for centuries since the wars (which included the Battle of the Caudine Forks) that broke their power originally. They rose up to help Pyrrhus. They rose up to help Hannibal. They submitted because of the enduring power of Rome, just as some are now, and they will keep trying as opportunities arise, just as some are now. If I thought our treatment of the Samnites would only affect our relations with the Samnites, I'd be perfectly happy to settle with the "just" approach. But it will not. Remember the conflict between the legionnaires and the equites? That resolved fairly well, but it will be exponentially worse with regards the Samnites. It will affect Atellus's standing with his troops. I also think a harsher hand will enable more efficient pacification.

Actually I am pretty confident that the question of Samnite rising up to support Hannibal is not nearly as clear cut as you make it out to be... Sure after the disaster of Cannae a not insignificant portion of switched sides (the Hirpini being the most famous example of that) but others (like the Pentri) stayed loyal throughout the war and had to endure terrible hardships because of their loyalty to Rome (and got little thanks for it) and in many cases you could argue that those that rose up did so at least partly because they didn't want to suffer the negative effects of Hannibals army marauding and plundering their regions and less because of their dislike of Rome.
 
The Samnites were far from the only group of Italians who repeatedly rose up against Rome when outside forces powerful enough to threaten it arose. The Samnites were in the process of being subdued at the end of the Social Wars, which ended prematurely due to the political disturbances in Rome that form the "near-field" backstory of the situation we are now in- the conflict between Sulla and Marius.

You're interpreting this campaign as "the Social Wars are over, only the Samnites are still refusing the carrot, they must be invincibly anti-Roman." I'm interpreting it as "the Social Wars aren't over, every other group on the peninsula has been pressured into accepting Roman hegemony in exchange for a place in that hegemony, except that one group we didn't get around to."

To you, they're the unconquerable holdouts a la Masada. To me, they're unfinished business.

Atellus surely would. Among his own personal associates are many experienced veterans; Mercator is not the only one. Indeed, comparing the centurion of the Second Cohort to the First is instructive; we see that Mercator's personality is different, and likely to influence his perspective. Our current senior centurion might well say something more like "yeah, the Samnites are bastards, but they'll see reason after we give them enough good swift kicks to the ass." Tercerus hasn't been lecturing us on how impossible the Sixth Legion's mission is, either.

And that's a key point. The original mission of the Sixth. Sertorius is an educated man with extensive connections, and he coordinated closely with other senior Roman leaders before undertaking this campaign. Rome would not raise a legion to carry out an unworkable plan of action, when a simpler, more brutal, more likely to succeed option was available. And remember, the original plan for the Sixth was to finish the Social Wars by subduing, rather than destroying, the Samnites.
These are good points and a very valid viewpoint. I'd be happy to keep discussing these specifics, as I certainly admit I could be wrong and this period has never been my bread and butter, but it might be helpful (if you agree) to return to the basic question over which we began this discussion, i.e. over the Atellus reputation vote (it might also save people the misery of sludging through my probably not well-written long posts :lol )

To present my position compactly, I'm basically doing cost-benefits. In my view, taking into account things like history with the Samnites, the thoughts offered by Mercator, and experience on campaign, my primary points are that

a) the relations with the Samnites will not be measurably improved by "fairer" or nicer governance, and in rare instances might actually worsen
b) treating the Samnites nicely could incur a non-trivial cost with fellow Romans, whether that be Atellus's soldiers or perhaps the elite back home, and
c) pacification will be made easier through ruthless crushing of the rebels and any rebel tendencies, in the present moment.

I can't remember if you've specifically discussed your own rationale for the Harsh / Fair vote, as I remember you focusing more on the other concrete decisions, so if you're willing I'd appreciate seeing your thoughts in response. In general, I've been moreso questioning the belief that the Samnites might develop some uncommon affection for Atellus and so be supportive, or something to that effect.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by ZephirTheWind on Mar 22, 2018 at 4:12 PM, finished with 1568 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Slow & Steady
    -[x] Whip Them Into Shape
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[x] Forge a Route
    [X] Plan Even Trench, Ordered Line
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Sharing
    [x] Plan Hierarchy of Needs
    [X] Plan Trained Soldiers
    -[x] Whip Them Into Shape
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Sharing
    [X] Plan A Heavy Roman Hand
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Secure A Route
    -[x] Defeat the Rebels
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[X] A Harsh Hand
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[X] Appropriation
    [X] Plan "Order & Logisitics"
    -[X] Whip Them Into Order
    -[x] Build an Encampment
    -[X] Liberate the Towns
    -[X] Restore the Roads
    -[x] I Am The Law
    -[x] Willing Advocate
    -[x] Forge a Route
    [X] Plan Stannis
 
Any plan that involves a single legionary going hungry to feed Samnites is a no-go. Not happening, period.

[X] Plan Slow & Steady
-[x] Whip Them Into Shape
-[x] Secure A Route
-[x] Defeat the Rebels
-[x] Build an Encampment
-[x] I Am The Law
-[x] Willing Advocate
-[x] Forge a Route
 
[ X ] Plan Slow & Steady
-[] Whip Them Into Shape
-[] Secure A Route
-[] Defeat the Rebels
-[] Build an Encampment
-[] I Am The Law
-[] Willing Advocate
-[] Forge a Route
 
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