Regarding FTL, Causality, as well as Special Relativity.

Location
Earth
I've various people and sources explaining why FTL would violate causality, as explained by Special Relativity.

I am absolutely no scientist, so forgive me if my question or questions seem ignorant, but how do we exactly know that FTL means time travel if we haven't built space vessels to actually practically test this? And how do we know if causality can actually be violated in the first place?

Like I said, I'm not trying to come across as ignorant, I honestly want to understand what all this means and why.
 
The answer is un-intuitive, but not actually complicated. You absolutely do need to read a bit of math, though... but don't despair; it's high-school level at most.

I've more or less answered this previously, here, so please read that first. Afterwards you'll probably still have questions; ask away at that point.
 
The answer is un-intuitive, but not actually complicated. You absolutely do need to read a bit of math, though... but don't despair; it's high-school level at most.

I've more or less answered this previously, here, so please read that first. Afterwards you'll probably still have questions; ask away at that point.
Thank you. I think I understand what you were saying on a basic level, though couldn't recall it off the top of my head.

I'm still saddened that humanity is still effectively trapped in it's home star system.
 
Thank you. I think I understand what you were saying on a basic level, though couldn't recall it off the top of my head.

I'm still saddened that humanity is still effectively trapped in it's home star system.
We don't really know that for sure. FTL is impossible, yes -- but that's in flat Lorentzian spacetime. None of what I wrote excludes the possibility of building wormholes, or Krasnikov tubes, or -- perhaps more realistically -- the possibility that a quantum theory of gravity would have solutions that don't look uniform in the least.

All of those are, admittedly, pretty far out.
 
We don't really know that for sure. FTL is impossible, yes -- but that's in flat Lorentzian spacetime. None of what I wrote excludes the possibility of building wormholes, or Krasnikov tubes, or -- perhaps more realistically -- the possibility that a quantum theory of gravity would have solutions that don't look uniform in the least.

All of those are, admittedly, pretty far out.
Then I sincerely hope we figure something out.
 
Thank you. I think I understand what you were saying on a basic level, though couldn't recall it off the top of my head.

I'm still saddened that humanity is still effectively trapped in it's home star system.

Fusion drives would get us to nearby star systems in reasonable timeframes, laser high ways would let us travel around the galaxy at near light speeds. even without FTL we are not trapped in the sol system... even if we never crack fusion, or long distance spaceflight we could still jump from rock to rock on the oort cloud, using objects like pluto and makemake to build far out colonies to resupply,... and that gets you out light years, from where you can jump to another star systems oort cloud and work your way into the system taking short hops all the while.

With basically current tech you could colonize the galaxy it'd just be expensive and take a long time so no one is interested at the moment. Not all the GDP of the world expensive either, but longer than humanity has existed long times.

Spend say 5% of the US budget on building a large and capable moon base that is mostly self sustaining and does it's own mining, refining and smelting, an industrial base capable of supporting itself and build rockets and supplies. The moon has a lot less gravity so it's easier to launch from there, and it'd serve as a stress test for all involved technologies and factors. By the time it is finished you could build a viable outpost on almost any airless rock. This would take a few decades even with that level of commitment most likley, but from the moon base hop onto the asteroid belt or similar and just keep expanding out. A century or two and you will be hopping along the oort cloud... and from there you will reach other stars since the oort clouds practically touch.
 
A lack of FTL doesn't mean we can't explore the universe. It means it'll be slower, that's all.
Not even necessarily slower for the people doing the exploring either, just for the people back home. Time dilation could allow even intergalactic travel in a single human lifetime at least in principal. The engine requirements for that are pretty out there, but less so than FTL.
 
Fusion drives would get us to nearby star systems in reasonable timeframes, laser high ways would let us travel around the galaxy at near light speeds. even without FTL we are not trapped in the sol system... even if we never crack fusion, or long distance spaceflight we could still jump from rock to rock on the oort cloud, using objects like pluto and makemake to build far out colonies to resupply,... and that gets you out light years, from where you can jump to another star systems oort cloud and work your way into the system taking short hops all the while.

With basically current tech you could colonize the galaxy it'd just be expensive and take a long time so no one is interested at the moment. Not all the GDP of the world expensive either, but longer than humanity has existed long times.

Spend say 5% of the US budget on building a large and capable moon base that is mostly self sustaining and does it's own mining, refining and smelting, an industrial base capable of supporting itself and build rockets and supplies. The moon has a lot less gravity so it's easier to launch from there, and it'd serve as a stress test for all involved technologies and factors. By the time it is finished you could build a viable outpost on almost any airless rock. This would take a few decades even with that level of commitment most likley, but from the moon base hop onto the asteroid belt or similar and just keep expanding out. A century or two and you will be hopping along the oort cloud... and from there you will reach other stars since the oort clouds practically touch.
You've sort of kind of restored the plausibility of CJ Cherryh's introduction to Downbelow Station there, albeit with the string of star stations developing not at actual stars separated by handfuls of light years, but on a much smaller scale stringing together much much smaller cosmic objects. Of course her "merchanter" society depended on actually relativistic semi-generation ships becoming Family sublighters (and then no stories are set in that era, she pulls the traditional SF rabbit out of the hat of a functioning FTL drive being developed eventually to revolutionize the centuries-old starfaring society first built by the sublighters). Still something not entirely unlike her prologue can happen in your terms, so that is something.

I don't think a fusion drive using onboard propellant can reasonably attain speeds much faster than 1/10 C, and even that involves a mass ratio of e each burn; there have to be two such to boost up to the cutoff speed and then brake down to encounter the target object as anything other than a projectile--possibly I am overlooking feasible means of braking against galactic magnetic field lines or whatnot which saves us one of these burns, but assuming we have to do it all the hard way, that's a mass ratio of 7 to get to a speed allowing us to get to the Alpha Centauri system in...a bit under half a century. To assert then that fusion alone can allow "interstellar" travel is to either assume humans somehow shifting over to a much longer timeframe than we are accustomed to or capable of living as of yet--suspended animation and/or life extension, presumably actually both since even if I can life a thousand years it is hard to see me blithely accepting being cooped up in a starship for a century of that time or more. Or as you do, shift attention away from defining "star travel" as literally going from star to star and being content with exploring the darker and nearly but not quite void spaces in between.

My assumption about fusion is based on the general sense that one releases about 1 percent of the rest mass energy in typical fusion processes, and this energy if fully applied to the waste "daughter" products of the reaction would enable it to be ejected at just about 1/10 C, which in turn would if plugged into the rocket equation (no need to develop the relativistic rocket equation at these speeds, Newtonian approximations are close enough for government work here) give delta-V equal to the exhaust velocity when one has expended 1-e of the initial mass. At a full G thrust this would take about 1/10 of a year.

If only we had some convenient way to sustain full G thrusts for say 3-4 subjective years at reasonable mass ratio costs, and could also deal with the side consequences (sleet of interstellar particles manifesting as intense cosmic ray like bombardment, not to mention turning into a cloud of hot plasma if one encounters anything as substantial as say a paperclip out there, stuff like that) then we could count on relativistic time contraction to shorten the time frame of journeys of many tens of light years which puts oodles of star systems in more conceivably convenient reach--to the subjective experience of the crew of the ship, when they go home again they arrive as many years later as the round trip distance in light years plus a year for boosting up to and back down from near C as seen by these stay at homes. But many a fun SF epic has been written centered around interstellar trader societies that skim the centuries of human history in this way.

Alas, even if we had a magical gadget that simply converted every gram of mass fed into it directly into a semicollimated shower of photons (or less destructively neutrinos, though I have wondered whether a mass flux of neutrino exhaust sufficient to drive a ten thousand tonne interstellar ship at 1 G thrust would in fact still vaporize something that strayed into the immediate exhaust flow--neutrino interactions are incredibly rare but cram enough of them into a tight volume and you are still going to heat things up! Question is, how many, in a per kilogram sense) which gives us the maximum specific impulse physics as I understand it allows for in a rocket, such that thrust is simply the energy flux divided by C, or alternatively the mass flow times C, the basic rocket equation (now we need to go relativistic, but I understand Taylor's Space Time physics these modified rocket equations are actually just hyperbolic functions, pretty simple) still would require a mass ratio of 7 to boost for two onboard subjective years, and then another factor of 7 to brake for overall factor of 50, and meanwhile we have all those liabilities of blasting through galactic space with its single atom per cubic meter mass densities turning into something really nasty at these relativistic speeds. If we boost for just half a year and coast, we are now going at approximately half C and have rather little relativistic time contraction to show for it yet, and we still need a mass ratio of 7 to both speed up and slow down. Not to mention we have no practical devices that we can do more than vaguely foresee being able to make, and would require stuff like storing half that reaction mass as antimatter. Lotsa luck with that! We know how to make it--it is just very very hard to do, and if we do it, storing it is pretty nerve wracking.

Mind, I did catch your suggestion that we could have laser drives of some kind that get around this mass ratio hitch by means of supplying the reaction mass from outside the ship--someone else pays for it as it were. But this would be a solution that would have to be built first, it is no good for our generation that hasn't built it yet, not to mention I can only imagine the havoc splashing powerful light beams around the Galaxy like that might wreck if anything goes wonky or someone gets hotheaded with them.

So you see why people would really like it if someone came along and said lookit, I just made a Jump drive that can take us to Tau Ceti and back in just an hour or so, most of that for launching from Earth and landing on the neat planet I found there (yeah, I know, Tau Ceti is supposed not to have planets alas, so much for my screen name).

I remain agnostic about that, and hold that if there is FTL, it won't practically be by means of the loopholes we currently speculate on, wormholes or whatever; these at best, like the laser interstellar highway, serve to connect points that are quite distant from where we are now, it can't take us from Earth to some random destination we name.

I suspect instead that if practical FTL for recognizably human people ever happens it will be a surprise of some kind requiring a new world view. And that world view has to somehow be consistent with the one we have, and perhaps there are ways of higher order understanding of how the universe is organized and structured that permit us to somehow square what we know already about spacetime with the possibility of me somehow being able to commute to Altair IV and back once a week without thereby enabling me to go back in time and kill Hitler or whatever. But I think I do understand why that is a taller order than it might seem, and that very possibly if we do derive some method of FTL, we will find time travel is a perfectly normal consequences. The fact that the universe does not disintegrate in paradoxes might be because of some kind of time travel constraints such as superdeterminism (no one will kill Hitler young because no one did, nor can one prevent that car accident nor show up in the reign of Cleopatra and scheme with her to take over the Earth using Nerf guns--because it didn't happen) or parallel universes (you can go hang out at the battle of Gettysburg all right, then skip ahead a year or so and stop Booth from shooting Lincoln, but the N space trajectory taking you there means you arrive at an alternate time line and when you try to return to 2020, you arrive in a completely different timeline and can never find your way home again--even if you carefully avoid interfering in any preventable way--meanwhile history as we know it is still out there somewhere unchanged by you because you missed it) or something weirder. But we can be confident that if FTL does mean we can now backtrack across our subjective past, some how or other the Cosmos gets over it and it is at most a subjective problem; if we can do FTL by any hook or crook, being able to do that is part of how the Universe actually normally works, one we happen to have been ignorant of hitherto. It might involve mind-bending challenges to our comfortable notions of causality but it cannot involve breaking the Universe!

I must of course defer to others who have advanced in their understanding of detailed current theory far beyond me.

But I stick to one of Clarke's laws, stated in weaker and more reasonable form than he did:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist assures you that a thing is possible, they are almost certainly correct, but if they insist that it is impossible, they may well be quite mistaken.
 
Alistair Reynolds is generally pretty good at depicting the sheer scale of SF without FTL drives. The Revelation Space trilogy has travel times on the order of decades with 'lighthugger' ships that can basically accelerate non-stop for as long as needed. House of Suns meanwhile, takes place across hundreds of thousands of years.
At the opposite end, Revenger instead takes place entirely in the Solar System (albeit millions of years in the future), so travel times and the like are much smaller - and almost entirely with solar sails!

Incidentally, FTL travel is kind-of sort-of possible in the Revelation Space setting... except
the universe will reach back in time and kill you well before you have a chance to try it.
 
possibly I am overlooking feasible means of braking against galactic magnetic field lines or whatnot which saves us one of these burns

It turns out that magnetic scoops, as in a Bussard ramjet, actually make really great brakes.

Even if we never get engines capable of getting ships up to high fractions of c*, we'll still be able to achieve rapid interstellar travel by using laser lightsails for acceleration, magnetic sails for deceleration, and a fission fragment or fusion drive to lose the last few %c of velocity.

*something like, say, a ram-augmented beam core antimatter rocket should be able to do pretty well.
 
Mind, I did catch your suggestion that we could have laser drives of some kind that get around this mass ratio hitch by means of supplying the reaction mass from outside the ship--someone else pays for it as it were. But this would be a solution that would have to be built first, it is no good for our generation that hasn't built it yet, not to mention I can only imagine the havoc splashing powerful light beams around the Galaxy like that might wreck if anything goes wonky or someone gets hotheaded with them.

Stelasers are not that hard to build, but even a stelaser can't fry planets in another solar system, there you are really talking nicol-dyson beams or such. Granted for in solar system purposes a stelaser is a rather impressive weapon. It doesn't have the lens to stay focused over interstelar distances, in fact you might want to use a stelaser to beam power to a station in the oort cloud a light week or so out and have that station push on the ship... and use the laser to push dust and drebis out of the way. Hence laser highway, these things would need constant maintenance to keep them free of interstellar dust.

As for stuff beign hard to reach without FTL... if we where living in an idealized universe of thought experiments you could reach the edge of the universe in a century of travel time if you could accelerate at 1 g that whole time... from the travelers perspective. the real universe is a bit messier sadly, interstellar and intergalactic dust would slow you by collision and if you go fast enough, well our universe does have a prefered reference frame. The cosmic microwave background ahead of you will get blue shifted enough to slow your ship if nothing else will. Still from the perspective of the traveler other galaxy clusters are a mere century away.

With fusion is becomes viable to build ships that accelerate at 1g for about a year which will leave you at 0.75-0.8c range, and another year to slow down, so to get to alpha centauri would take 6 years, a long trip, but not crazy long. If 12 year trips would be acceptable the same ship could reach the 50 nearest stars or so, faster from the traveler point of view, much faster if the ship could thrust for an additional month since this is the regime where time dilation is really kicking in. I did some rough math and am comming out with a payload to fuel ratio of about 1 in 1000 for reasonably proposed fusion engines, a bit extreme, but with some staging that should be doable. Just stage as you are boosting up and if the stages have some fuel and a basic drone system they could just stop accelerating and just take the slow road to the destination, who cares if a hunk of metal takes a century to get to the destination. Or send a drone ahead to the destination to build a stelaser and then just laser sail all the way from start to finish. lots and lots of options.

On antimatter vs fusion... well as you point out fusion liberates about 1% of mass as energy, so really from fusion all other techs are just 2 orders of magnitude more power, unlike the many many orders of magnitude between fusion and chemical propulsion. Once you get fusion there is not that much more to gain, and fusion drives would be amazing for in system trips and they make interstelar ones... at least feasible.
 
Ok, but what has always bothered me is the Deeeeeeeeeep future. Any finite / bounded future is terrifying on an existential level. My current best hope is that dark energy grows quickly enough to cause a Big Rip before the Stelliferous ends. I believe that Big Bangs happen when dark energy grows strong enough to rip apart quarks. This will create a sudden incredibly dense quark soup. Hopefully we can figure out a way to pass information through to the ensuing quagma, resulting in the Xeelee Sequence.
 
Ok, but what has always bothered me is the Deeeeeeeeeep future. Any finite / bounded future is terrifying on an existential level. My current best hope is that dark energy grows quickly enough to cause a Big Rip before the Stelliferous ends. I believe that Big Bangs happen when dark energy grows strong enough to rip apart quarks. This will create a sudden incredibly dense quark soup. Hopefully we can figure out a way to pass information through to the ensuing quagma, resulting in the Xeelee Sequence.

All of that is incredibly silly and unlikely. Sad fact is that by far the most likely outcome is that the universe fizzles out and that's all she wrote. I'd find it genuinely disappointing if we didn't get to enjoy the long twilight of the universe as a black hole civilization.
 
All of that is incredibly silly and unlikely. Sad fact is that by far the most likely outcome is that the universe fizzles out and that's all she wrote. I'd find it genuinely disappointing if we didn't get to enjoy the long twilight of the universe as a black hole civilization.
Actually, it looks like some really weird stuff might happen when time is essentially infinite. Very low probability events become all but assured to eventually occur. The actual physics aren't fully determined, but it has been theorized that you could get another Big Bang out of quantum fluctuations if you wait long enough. It might take a number of years that is impractical to write with conventional exponents, but even those vast eons are nothing next to eternity.
 
Actually, it looks like some really weird stuff might happen when time is essentially infinite. Very low probability events become all but assured to eventually occur. The actual physics aren't fully determined, but it has been theorized that you could get another Big Bang out of quantum fluctuations if you wait long enough. It might take a number of years that is impractical to write with conventional exponents, but even those vast eons are nothing next to eternity.

By which time we will be eons dead and thus it won't matter.
 
That's entirely missing the point. Much of the existential horror is in the whole "the clock winds down and then there is nothing but cold empty space" of heat death, but that might well not truly be the case.

Umm. Maybe for you, but for me the horror is that the universe will go on but I won't be there to watch it.
 
Umm. Maybe for you, but for me the horror is that the universe will go on but I won't be there to watch it.
That's... not even a really related problem. The vast majority of even young adults today will likely be dead before the end of the century, you and me included. Even with biological immortality, a person probably won't make it to a thousand.
 
That's... not even a really related problem. The vast majority of even young adults today will likely be dead before the end of the century, you and me included. Even with biological immortality, a person probably won't make it to a thousand.

Which is far more terrifying than the end of the universe ever could be.
 
Umm. Maybe for you, but for me the horror is that the universe will go on but I won't be there to watch it.
Ever read Tipler's The Physics of Immortality? Unfortunately for someone who wants that, Tipler never provides credible arguments to indicate why, as he assumes repeatedly, some intelligent beings in the universe must act as he suggests some could.

Also his suggestion involves using allegedly possible means to create an effectively infinite cycle software simulation of the cosmos, in which you and I would be reflected as possibly eternal simulations. (There is also the suggestion we already are in that phase, living in the simulation now, in which case we are already immortal, or anyway if whoever has oversight over the whole shebang decides to sustain us).

Not really on topic of this thread of course, except insofar as if we were in fact living in a simulation already, then I suppose someone with administrative privileges could arrange to patch over different sections of space-time and splice them together, or grant the ability to some particular gadget to request such a software kludge of the system with the push of a button, forming a kind of jump drive--and being administered intelligently it would be possible to make jumps that might open the door of causality violations if abused, but monitored so that someone attempting to actually do that in an illegal way is stopped.

But yeah, the cosmos is what it is. We might be able to sustain life a lot longer for each of us someday, perhaps soon, and we might discover back doors and resources we currently have no idea might exist. But sooner or later each of us must confront living with limits we happen not to like.
 
Stelasers are not that hard to build, but even a stelaser can't fry planets in another solar system, there you are really talking nicol-dyson beams or such. Granted for in solar system purposes a stelaser is a rather impressive weapon. It doesn't have the lens to stay focused over interstelar distances, in fact you might want to use a stelaser to beam power to a station in the oort cloud a light week or so out and have that station push on the ship... and use the laser to push dust and drebis out of the way. Hence laser highway, these things would need constant maintenance to keep them free of interstellar dust.

As for stuff beign hard to reach without FTL... if we where living in an idealized universe of thought experiments you could reach the edge of the universe in a century of travel time if you could accelerate at 1 g that whole time... from the travelers perspective. the real universe is a bit messier sadly, interstellar and intergalactic dust would slow you by collision and if you go fast enough, well our universe does have a prefered reference frame. The cosmic microwave background ahead of you will get blue shifted enough to slow your ship if nothing else will. Still from the perspective of the traveler other galaxy clusters are a mere century away.

With fusion is becomes viable to build ships that accelerate at 1g for about a year which will leave you at 0.75-0.8c range, and another year to slow down, so to get to alpha centauri would take 6 years, a long trip, but not crazy long. If 12 year trips would be acceptable the same ship could reach the 50 nearest stars or so, faster from the traveler point of view, much faster if the ship could thrust for an additional month since this is the regime where time dilation is really kicking in. I did some rough math and am comming out with a payload to fuel ratio of about 1 in 1000 for reasonably proposed fusion engines, a bit extreme, but with some staging that should be doable. Just stage as you are boosting up and if the stages have some fuel and a basic drone system they could just stop accelerating and just take the slow road to the destination, who cares if a hunk of metal takes a century to get to the destination. Or send a drone ahead to the destination to build a stelaser and then just laser sail all the way from start to finish. lots and lots of options.

On antimatter vs fusion... well as you point out fusion liberates about 1% of mass as energy, so really from fusion all other techs are just 2 orders of magnitude more power, unlike the many many orders of magnitude between fusion and chemical propulsion. Once you get fusion there is not that much more to gain, and fusion drives would be amazing for in system trips and they make interstelar ones... at least feasible.
I have seen some concepts that have stages positioned along preset intercepts along the path of the ships such that a stage senses the ship approaching, burns to match the ship's velocity and position, docks, burns until it's fuel tank is empty, and then detaches with just enough reaction mass to dis-align it's vector and make room for the next stage to connect.

This obviously becomes less and less viable as the ship goes faster and faster, but the efficency comes from being able to use stationary launch platforms like an orbital rail launcher to add initial velocity to the boosters. Basically you add 10 or 20 5-50 mile long railgun (the rail gun is 5 to 50 miles long) shots worth of energy to the delta V you have to carry with you. You actually launch the ship and then fire booster tanks after it at a higher base velocity on overtake trajectories.

Your squishy passengers start off moving slowly and you can abuse the railgun's ability to fire the fuel with an initial acceleration measured in tens of Gs.
 
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