Recursive Arc [RWBY]

Because it doesn't follow the story flow or logic. You can't simple force sudden character development, you have to actually develop it, and Jaune barely started to form as character and suddenly he starts talking about the team, his responsability, and whatnot. Why? He barely knows these people. They were his team because he died 4 other times, why would he think of them as THE team specially when he now knows how to use his powers? He despises one of them enough to want to see him expelled, and then after 2 phrases exchanged with Ozpin (neither very good or original) he is Go Team! And Mr. Responsability? It just doesn't make any sense.

Sometimes, the obvious solution isn't the right solution. Jaune recognizes that he could turn back time and undo this, but what kind of leader would that make him? What would that eventually lead to? "I could send my teammates into this mission again and again, and eventually we'll get it right." Savescumming in reality is a rather terrifying power, when you think about it. And Jaune isn't twisted enough to take advantage of it like that.
And 'taking the easy out of "never happened"' is actually worse than forcing people who despise each other to work together, live together, fight together? Life isn't about forcing people to be miserable just because you believe you can 'make it' work. It's actually very selfish of Jaune forcing those people to do that. Of course in a cartoon, where deep down everyone is the same and no one except bad guys have different worldviews, this could work, but in real life? Depression, distaste for their everyday and spite. So much spite. He just created a huge, unnecessary conflict on his team, that could literally be solved by turning time back a little and working on it slowly. But rushing it head on is the right way? That's just to simplistic, and wrong. Like people thinking that you can beat phobias or addiction of a person just by 'willing' it.

There is also the reason that Cardin as a character is boring, he is a cardboard, and a drag to read. The author tried to force some character depthness on him, but it was waaay heavy-handed,and it just made him even more flat and obvious. Also the fact that the author doesn't even know which of the many conflicts he created he wants to be the central one, it can hardly be called character development when nothing was developed and the plot was all over the place, with no focus or progress.

The author could be tying here for a 'team misfits' vibe, using the characters clashing personalities and views to create drama. But such extremes differences like those of Blake and Cardin needs a subtle and deliberately slow hand to work. Which is not the case at all.
 
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Because it doesn't follow the story flow or logic. You can't simple force sudden character development, you have to actually develop it, and Jaune barely started to form as character and suddenly he starts talking about the team, his responsability, and whatnot. Why? He barely knows these people. They were his team because he died 4 other times, why would he think of them as THE team specially when he now knows how to use his powers?
Maybe it's because Jaune is being optimistic and plans not to die in this timeline like he died in the others.
He despises one of them enough to want to see him expelled, and then after 2 phrases exchanged with Ozpin (neither very good or original) he is Go Team! And Mr. Responsability? It just doesn't make any sense.
I recall a similar situation happening in canon RWBY when Weiss wanted to be the leader instead of Ruby. I also recall the writing being equally as bland, forgettable, and unoriginal while yielding exactly the same results. Are you perhaps suggesting that when canon did it, it was flawless? Or are you instead suggesting that the author can't adhere to canon because canon was wrong? Alternatively, are you suggesting that Ozpin was in the wrong here? If anything, I praise him for refusing to just make Cardin 'go away' as a problem.
And 'taking the easy out of "never happened"' is actually worse than forcing people who despise each other to work together, live together, fight together?
YES. Life is about working with people you don't like, doing things you don't like, and not getting what you want.
Life isn't about forcing people to be miserable just because you believe you can 'make it' work. It's actually very selfish of Jaune forcing those people to do that.
No, it's really not. If anything, the fact that Jaune is facing his mistakes and trying to make them right without just relying on his Semblance is more realistic to me, more interesting to me, and very much in-character for him. And how is it selfish to face one's own mistake and try to fix it? How is it selfish to do what literally every single child is taught to do from an early age? When you screw up, you own up to it and fix what you broke. Jaune would fix nothing by reversing time. He'd leave a ticking time bomb that could go off at an even worse time and nothing would be mended. If anything, him confronting this in a direct manner like this right now in a low-risk environment is the best action he could have made.
Of course in a cartoon, where deep down everyone is the same and no one except bad guys have different worldviews, this could work, but in real life? Depression, distaste for their everyday and spite. So much spite.
I'm actually not sure what you're trying to say here. Please clarify these sentence fragments in a manner that can be understood.
He just created a huge, unnecessary conflict on his team, that could literally be solved by turning time back a little and working on it slowly. But rushing it head on is the right way?
One can just as easily blame Jaune for "creating" this conflict as someone else for making it come to a head. This is a team with a former freedom fighter Faunus and another member who is racist against Faunus. No matter what, this is a confrontation that was going to happen. Further, it's a necessary confrontation. Consider what this team has to face in the future. These are Hunters and Huntresses in training. They will one day fight the creatures of Grimm, they will have to go out and defend humanity by working together. Are you perhaps saying that they can work together easily without confronting this severe issue?


As for confronting the problem head-on? Yes. That is the right thing to do. He had a severe issue in his team. Working through it slowly, drawing it out piece by piece, that would not work. Cardin is abrasive, Blake is reclusive. Neither of them like each other, neither of them would be willing to share details of their past even after a long period of time. Remember, it took almost a year before Blake actually spoke up about her ties to the White Fang. That was after a similar conflict with Weiss. But Weiss, unlike Cardin, was willing to try to help Blake. Cardin, meanwhile, is deeply and blatantly racist.

That's just to simplistic, and wrong. Like people thinking that you can beat phobias or addiction of a person just by 'willing' it.
There's something really wrong and worrying about this comparison. You're saying that the idea of Jaune directly confronting a problem in his team structure that would, no matter what, become a severe issue at a later time is the equivalent of "willing" one's fears away. That's...
That's just to simplistic, and wrong.
Yeah. Basically.
There is also the reason that Cardin as a character is boring, he is a cardboard, and a drag to read. The author tried to force some character depthness on him, but it was waaay heavy-handed,and it just made him even more flat and obvious.
I'm not going to defend Cardin here. He was never meant to be anything more than a cardboard cutout bully in the show, and seeing him act this way here meets my already very low bar. In the author's defense, he wasn't given much to work with. But that's hardly an excuse and I do agree that Cardin as a character could have been handled better... I simply take the stance that handling him at all is rather challenging.
Also the fact that the author doesn't even know which of the many conflicts he created he wants to be the central one, it can hardly be called character development when nothing was developed and the plot was all over the place, with no focus or progress.
Think you could be a little more specific by, perhaps, listing each of the individual conflicts and the measures by which they were addressed?
The author could be tying here for a 'team misfits' vibe, using the characters clashing personalities and views to create drama. But such extremes differences like those of Blake and Cardin needs a subtle and deliberately slow hand to work. Which is not the case at all.
I'm not sure about the "subtle" and "slow" bit. Have you seen RWBY? This is a show where subtlety is not the name of the game by any means or measures. And Jaune, no matter his sudden power boost, is not a subtle person. If this conflict would come to a head and if Jaune were forced to deal with it, I could certainly see him sitting everyone down to deal with it right there and right then. Jaune isn't the kind of character who understands or works well with subtlety... hell, he's probably one of the worst people to give a Semblance like this one. That much, I won't argue.

But I'd rather watch someone struggle to figure out how to work through his problems than just give up and try again. I'd rather watch someone try every avenue before deciding to go back and redo what is there, primarily because going back is not an option we all have.
 
No, when canon did it was shit. I actually dislike RWBY writing most times. More than a little. I enjoy thr fights and humour much more. Is it wrong for me to want the author to be be better than that and not commit the same mistakes? I think Weiss is annoying an insufferable, Ruby simpliestic and not very appealing and Jaune bland and annoying.

I already listed the conflicts on the previous post.

Working problems out would be a valid problem for this fic. If the author had tried it from the beginning. That's exactly what I said on my first post. If he wanted to do this kind of story it would have been much better if he had focused on this team from the beginning. Instead of making us not grow attached to any team, since he made the others teams easily dispossable, we thought this too would be like that. And suddenly we discover it isn't? Then, again, he shouldn't have created a pattern and then 'randomly' abandon it for the group he wanted.

This fic started as story about Jaune and his powers. Then the author suddenly veered off to make it about team dynamics and racism, and he is using canon plotlines (that took multiple episodes to work it out with it being the main focus and on a visual media, which is much more dynamic than just writing everything and thus csn develop much quicker) and I'm lost. What does he want to do if this fic? I don't know. Like I said, there is no focus.

And you are missing my point. Is not that I wouldn't read a fic where Jaune has this team and tries to make it work. It's just that here why does he want to make it work so much? Why he didn't fight for his other teams? He didn't seem to care much about them besides "that girl is nice, wish she was on my team". He didn't even try to have the same team as before in any ocasion, he didn't search for them, he didn't try to game the initiation. Now he is going through all this trouble after being so apathetic for so long (Hell, Cardin fucking killed him and he didn't seem to care much, not enough to mention it) because? There is no IC reason. In real life, do you go on an epic journey of enlightment and training in the wilderness when you can't open a bottle? I just either find a way around it, 'cheating', or I just knife the bitch.

About most people not being able to simple reverse, well, that's the whole point isn't it? Jaune can. This Jaune can. That's the whole gimmick of this fic, his powers.
 
No, when canon did it was shit. I actually dislike RWBY writing most times. More than a little. I enjoy thr fights and humour much more. Is it wrong for me to want the author to be be better than that and not commit the same mistakes? I think Weiss is annoying an insufferable, Ruby simpliestic and not very appealing and Jaune bland and annoying.
...Wow. Then why read this at all? I mean, clearly the author is trying to look at what canon did and is apparently attempting to maintain the characters introduced there. This doesn't seem like the kind of story you'd enjoy when you find the main character "bland and annoying". Are you here hoping that you'll see something new and interesting only to be disappointed? The notion of Jaune having a timeloop power is already rather new and interesting despite the surprising amount of RWBY fanfiction out there... there are other stories where Jaune timeloops, but not as his Semblance. Would you rather look at those?
Working problems out would be a valid problem for this fic. If the author had tried it from the beginning. That's exactly what I said on my first post. If he wanted to do this kind of story it would have been much better if he had focused on this team from the beginning. Instead of making us not grow attached to any team, since he made the others teams easily dispossable, we thought this too would be like that. And suddenly we discover it isn't? Then, again, he shouldn't have created a pattern and then 'randomly' abandon it for the group he wanted.
Except he couldn't focus on this team from the beginning because Jaune ended up dying. That doesn't make the other teams "dispossable", as you've called it. That makes it very hard for Jaune to actually keep a team. It makes sense that his priority would be to keep the team he ends up with for as long as he possibly can because, previously when he succeeded at getting a team, he ended up dying. I'm not sure he "randomly" abandoned his loop for a group he wanted -- I'm confident he didn't want this team, but he's sticking with it anyway. I give him credit on that!

However, I will point out that there is a rather severe issue that neither of us have looked at so far, one that I'm confident you'll agree with me on: Why can Jaune control his Semblance all of a sudden? I know Semblances aren't very well explained in canon, but I don't think that Jaune is just going to automatically become proficient in going backwards through time. It seems oddly convenient. While I appreciate that he revealed his ability to time travel, I dislike that Jaune can so suddenly control going back through time. If he couldn't, then not only would he have to wait for his teammates to believe him on his Semblance, but it would explain why he didn't, as you've argued, "go back in time and work through the problem slowly". It's a small edit that would change the story in a big way while removing the unnecessarily sudden violent conflict.
This fic started as story about Jaune and his powers. Then the author suddenly veered off to make it about team dynamics and racism, and he is using canon plotlines (that took multiple episodes to work it out with it being the main focus and on a visual media, which is much more dynamic than just writing everything and thus csn develop much quicker) and I'm lost. What does he want to do if this fic? I don't know. Like I said, there is no focus.
I'd argue there is a focus, on Jaune. But most of what you're saying here makes sense. If the author wants to try approaching multiple conflicts simultaneously, he'd be better off keeping most of that in the background while focusing on one at a time in the foreground over a period of weeks or months. If he focused on these issues over several chapters instead of just one, I might have much less to complain about.
And you are missing my point. Is not that I wouldn't read a fic where Jaune has this team and tries to make it work. It's just that here why does he want to make it work so much? Why he didn't fight for his other teams? He didn't seem to care much about them besides "that girl is nice, wish she was on my team". He didn't even try to have the same team as before in any ocasion, he didn't search for them, he didn't try to game the initiation.
Maybe it's because Jaune died. Maybe it's because Jaune doesn't understand how his Semblance quite works? Maybe it's because Jaune doesn't understand yet how his choices may drastically affect everyone else and what teams end up being formed? He did try gaming the initiation, but because he didn't know how to game the initiation he ended up with a team. But rather than scrapping the team, he tried to stick with what he got.
Now he is going through all this trouble after being so apathetic for so long (Hell, Cardin fucking killed him and he didn't seem to care much, not enough to mention it) because? There is no IC reason.
I completely agree with you on this. Jaune not having some kind of PTSD from being splattered by one of his teammates is downright bizarre to me. The notion that Jaune can so easily stand up to Cardin and force him to do one thing or another is jarring and outrageous.
In real life, do you go on an epic journey of enlightment and training in the wilderness when you can't open a bottle? I just either find a way around it, 'cheating', or I just knife the bitch.
In real life, when you're taking a test to determine whether you're fit to pilot a plane and fail, do you find a way to fudge the results in spite of it potentially putting many other people at risk? This isn't a journey of "enlightment". This is an exam to become a defender of humanity. There is no cheating on that. Even if Jaune sneaked into Beacon in canon, he earned his place as a team leader by passing the test given to him.
About most people not being able to simple reverse, well, that's the whole point isn't it? Jaune can. This Jaune can. That's the whole gimmick of this fic, his powers.
The gimmick of this fic is Jaune looping back whenever he dies. I suppose my biggest problem is that the author stepped away from that completely without any real explanation for it except "suddenly, Jaune can control is Semblance". That is the biggest problem of this -- the inconsistency regarding Jaune's ability to go back and forth through time.
 
No. The gimmick is his power being something like the Sands of Time from Prince of Persia. But yes, the sudden control is one of the problems. The fact that it seemed he only got that control so he would say the wrong thing and create that whole drama is quite jarring.
 
The gimmick of this fic is Jaune looping back whenever he dies. I suppose my biggest problem is that the author stepped away from that completely without any real explanation for it except "suddenly, Jaune can control is Semblance".
Um, no? I'm pretty sure that he has to manually trigger his Semblance. Less Zorian and Cage, more Homura and Okabe. And he does gain it little by little, instead of suddenly. He used it when almost dying a couple of times, then he tried manually triggering it, and now he can somewhat trigger it anytime he want (just still not very precise as to how far he will go). It's a pretty natural progression for me.
 
Um, no? I'm pretty sure that he has to manually trigger his Semblance. Less Zorian and Cage, more Homura and Okabe. And he does gain it little by little, instead of suddenly. He used it when almost dying a couple of times, then he tried manually triggering it, and now he can somewhat trigger it anytime he want (just still not very precise as to how far he will go). It's a pretty natural progression for me.
This, I disagree with. I don't think the progression was very natural at all. I feel that it went from Jaune only activating his Semblance on death to Jaune just being able to activate it willy-nilly. That much, I object to.
But yes, the sudden control is one of the problems. The fact that it seemed he only got that control so he would say the wrong thing and create that whole drama is quite jarring.
Right. It just happened. And why did it happen? It happened to cause a conflict -- a conflict that would have happened no matter what. Why make the conflict happen right then? Why not wait? It's not just jarring, it's rushed and very sloppy.
 


...no? *goes back to corner*

Personally, I think Groundhog day/Peggy Sue fics are more interesting when the protagonist has no control over the loops, but I'll give the author the benefit of some doubt here. I do agree he seems to have gone from "why is this happening" to "I'm confident enough to demonstrate my semblance to a bunch of people despite having intentionally triggered it once" a bit fast though. I would have expected a good deal more experimenting and gaining confidence before letting others in on it.
Also personally I prefer my reading with a bit less rape and heart-eating as backstory drama, but there you go.
 
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