- Pronouns
- They/Them
I admit I'm kinda just staring here dumbfounded and appalled, and unsure what even to say to this.
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Rationalist fiction discussion
- Thread starter mesonoxian
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- rational fiction critique
I admit I'm kinda just staring here dumbfounded and appalled, and unsure what even to say to this.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
Okay...?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Alright, being slightly more cogent now that I've had a minute to breathe. This isn't really positive evidence against the claim that "HPMOR has terrible, nonsensical worldbuidling."
FortePlus
The THRILL from Green Hill
- Location
- Toronto
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So the main character's clan is the Kurosawa, an offshoot of the Uchiha clan that ended up in Mist and junk. Their bloodline ability is called the Iron Nerve and it's apparently derived from the Sharingan. You can copy and replicate motions perfectly I think once you observe/perform them? I don't know if that's all of it but yeah, dude can control his movements to throw dice a certain way, something that other shinobi can't do (maybe the Uchiha can? idk).
If I need to tag this with spoilers someone tell me, but yeah. Believe me when I say there are departures from Fishcake "Classic".
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- Library
Again, there are no rules about time-travel other than literary conventions, because time travel for information represent the same type of paradox as division by zero. Taking every "Harry spins his Time Turner" and replacing it with "Harry presses "I-win-through-author-fiat" button" would be more honest. There is reason why canon used it once in one book, to resolve only one scene. Transfiguration rules are explained - and broken by animagi, Stone and Harry-special-power-transmutation.
I did quick crtl+f on the HPMOR and it seems that justification for the last one is Harrizier thinking hard about nonsense. Not to mention canon does have both partial and human transmutations (Victor Krum spell in the second challenge of Tri-wizard turnament) . Second-level-spells-to-unlock as Super-Patronus are also not canon and add nonsense to the whole thing - and those were literally what Harry did to prove he can do "impossible" by wizards standards.
I will only briefly mention that in genetic chapter in its unashamed stupidity also contradict Unbreakable Vow effect of diminishing magic of caster - explicitly invoked at the end of the story - Lucius did not drop 60 IQ points, his magic ability was reduced.
So to sum up: no, nothing in HPMOR added worldbuilding make much sense, but it all does pile special power on top of special power for Harrizier to use.
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- Athens, Greece
First of all, you've not actually explained why you think that, just made a pronouncement.
Secondly, I don't know why you are participating in a discussion about HPMOR worldbuilding in general, when you've not read the story. Do I really have to respond to your immediate kneejerk reaction about a worldbuilding element you just got randomly informed about?
Seriously, why are you bothering to discuss HPMOR or even worse to pass judgment upon it, if you've not read it? Shall I start passing judgment on things you like that I've not read? Please list a couple such things, so I can bash them from their summaries, without having read them.
Third, I think it actually works MUCH BETTER than the original HP books, where there's all sorts of artifacts (Philosopher's stone, the mirror of Erised, Deathly Hallows, Goblet of Fire, etc) and we're never told why they can't be recreated (though supposedly wizarding technology progresses every year).
In sort the original HP never explain why there's such things as artifact in the first place, things that were created long long ago (like the Invisibility Cloak or the Elder Wand) and that are more powerful than the new ones. HPMOR provides an explanation with the Interdict of Merlin, which causes knowledge of powerful magic to get lost, because it can't get written down.
Fourth, there's also other things it accomplishes (e.g. gives an elegant explanation for Slytherin's Serpent in the Chamber of Secrets: it was designed to transmit Slytherin's knowledge and thus to circumvent Merlin's interdict).
- Location
- Finland
Clan of Taskmasters?
FortePlus
The THRILL from Green Hill
- Location
- Toronto
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Potentially? I don't recall the limitations tbh, but they're not the in universe force you'd assume because of politics and everything being made of super murder.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
That's pretty much a thing he can do with his bloodline, yeah.
The "and grounded in science" bit, isn't necessarily true. Its not clear if they've gone full sci-fi or full fantasy or sci-fi-in-a-way-that-resembles-fantasy.
I mean, the setting is the Naruto universe entirely reworked to be a crazy bloody ninja deathworld. I think the second post in the thread has a "Very AU: canon does not apply here." disclaimer.
I think the argument that the chapter could have emphasized more of "And then everyone died." in some way emotionally is a fair one. I think another argument might be that the delivery is done in a very emotionally flat to underscore how everyone dying is a pretty unexpected thing, and that this setting is fairly fucked up.
Though I'd mostly chalk that up to early installment weirdness and some kinks. I don't think we were supposed to survive the Swamp. As a story, the fic as a whole could probably use a pretty solid editing pass to iron out things in the early chapters and to torch some of the minor inconsistencies that crop up time and again. They've been going at this thing updating twice a week for about 4 years now, so those are just bound to pop up,
The highlights of the series for me were probably the Pain Invasion Arc, but I still enjoyed most of shippuden. It's only the bit at the end where everyone starts pulling out weird custom-made techniques out of their butts every ten panels that I thought stuff really got crazy.
I quite liked Naruto overall despite some of its other flaws (Kishimoto treats large portions of the supporting cast, especially the female characters, like doorstops), though I think its being left in the dust by One Piece and My Hero Academia now. Oda puts in the work all around, Horikoshi makes me give a shit about their characters, and both of them have this nice spark of adventure and creativity inherent to them that Naruto seems to lack.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
Then by all means, go enjoy works with time-travel that don't have rules (just as JKR's universe does), and please let us enjoy something fucking different.
Yes, JKR doing "we'll use a Time-Turner this one time, and never ever again" is one of the things that don't make sense in original HP's worldbuilding.
You did a Ctrl+F?
This entitles you to discuss a work of fiction, and to speak authoritatively (and sneeringly) about it with people who've actually read it?
FortePlus
The THRILL from Green Hill
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- Toronto
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- He/Him
I like MHA. Deku is a scrub but he's our scrub. Yaomomo keeps getting kicked around though and she's overdue for a big moment, more than anyone else.
One Piece pissed me off and I dropped it after Fishman Island. I don't think I ever really liked it and was just reading week to week hoping to get hooked. That arc killed everything for me. Sucks because Gear 4 looks cool.
Also NIGHT GUY and Double EMS Kakashi were super tight don't @ me.
One Piece pissed me off and I dropped it after Fishman Island. I don't think I ever really liked it and was just reading week to week hoping to get hooked. That arc killed everything for me. Sucks because Gear 4 looks cool.
I got a kick out of that section, especially seeing old techniques combined with Naruto and Sasuke and their new forms. I dunno. It was interesting for me at the least, seeing the end state of special eyes and special body.
Also NIGHT GUY and Double EMS Kakashi were super tight don't @ me.
Unfortunately this thread is not about you.
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- Library
Yes, of course. Since I read it until the worldbuilding stupidity overwhelmed me and then recently I read even more, because we have idle chat about it and it is clear that I missed a lot more ridiculous it-is-so-bad-it-is-really-funny bits.
As for the point about time-travel, it's jarring in the sense that there is no logic other than storytelling, because there can't be one. Which is fine in the stories where it's thematically fitting. Alas, it's huge and glaring worldbulding gap in story purported to be about rational and systematic thinking.
Edit: it's the same as if the novel was about exploring real world psychology of serial killer and the serial killer would turn out to be literal garden gnome by chapter 7.
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Emstar
The Shining One
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- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Night Guy was absolutely the shit, and they could have just called the whole Madara plot right there and gotten Sasusanoo and Narujesus to fight it out afterwards. That would have been a much better ending.
"The original premise was correct all along! The power of hard work and glorious amounts of asskicking eventually saved the day and triumphed over inherent talent and weird bloodline powers! Also, Guy just kicked a physical god through a fucking mountain and broke every bone in his body. Fuck yeah, Guy-sensei. Roll credits."
dragonx99
Actually Satan
I do hate to be this guy, but as discussed over in SB's reread thread hard work triumphing over natural talent was never Naruto's theme but one of Lee's and Guys. Naruto was the boy who was born with a demon in his gut and had to learn how to deal with and the negative things that came from it.
That being said, Night Guy still should have totally killed Madara's ass and I am sad that didn't and that phase of the fight.
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I can't understand this sentence at all, nor what you mean about it -- I'm guessing you've misunderstood or misread something about the story, and thus labelling it a contradiction somehow.
When was it ever claimed that the Unbreakable Vow would reduce his intelligence?
FortePlus
The THRILL from Green Hill
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- Toronto
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- He/Him
There were a lot of ways it could have ended, yeah. I can't say that the Kaguya section was unnecessary in hindsight since Kishimoto had been positioning the Rinnegan and the tailed beasts as very alien forces since before the war arc started. My only real issue was kind of with the pacing since there was a lot to get through but the Naruto/Obito ideology war took up most of that time. Not terrible but it was there.
I've never believed this because Lee learned 5/8 gates before he could grow facial hair. That's not simply hard work. And Naruto did work hard to get to where he was at the end of the series. It's always been a mix of hard work and natural ability that takes someone over the top.
Emstar
The Shining One
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- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
It was probably more accurate for me to say "One of the series' original themes." , though Kishi does send some mixed signals early on IMO.
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Look:
Ergo, if the practice and intelligence is reason in observable power diffrences, there are contraditing effects of Unbreakable Vow, unless it somehow drop you intelligence or erase memories as reduction in overall magica ability. Which it doesn't.
Also, noted that you dropped time-travel. Wise move.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
That means "Yes, I do like MoR — to the point that it's the only book/story I've spend a true sleepless night reading — but I've been through this song and dance before, and I'm not exactly in the mood of defending it against people that appear to have some kind of deep loathing of it despite not having actually read it."
(I will however grant that it's been quite some time since I've read it)
(and also that the whole Azkaban arc can be left out)
...from what I remember, time travel in MoR works pretty much as it does in canon:.
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- Athens, Greece
You're completely misinterpreting what this says, and confusing two separate things.
The whole chapter was about how there did NOT exist more and less (naturally) magically powerful people -- every witch and wizard (muggleborn, pureblood, halfblood) had the same amount of 'mana' (so to speak), at birth, and it was practice and training that made them powerful or weak. The blood of Merlin, or Slytherin or Dumbledore, wasn't special, (unlike say that of Anakin Skywalker) -- it was only practice and effort and studying that made you good or bad.
An *exception* to that, is when someone's natural magical ability is sacrificed for such ritual that require it, such as being the binder in an Unbreakable Vow. That's a completely separate thing.
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FortePlus
The THRILL from Green Hill
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- Toronto
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I honestly thought the early part of the series was unambiguous about needing a special ability to be truly elite in most cases. Lee lost with pure hard work. Gaara lost with pure special ability. Sasuke who had both of those things surpassed both of them in the space of a month. And before that, Naruto and Sasuke both are dead against Haku without their respective powers reawakening. Kakashi uses both the Sharingan and his bread and butter tech over the course of the arc.
I think people read way too much into Lee's performance and Neji's salty ramblings.
I think people read way too much into Lee's performance and Neji's salty ramblings.
So what, do you want an argument? I literally just said that "people like it" not counting the rest of my quote which says "other people here don't". I'm not interested in debating you or anyone else about methods or whatever just because you're imagining that I'm insulting you somehow for liking things.
Emstar
The Shining One
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- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
You seem to be assuming that it's not "The Unbreakable Vow decreases the overall size of the Magic Energy Whatever you can manipulate, though experience and practice do also come into play." or something of the sort. I don't think thats inherently a contradiction, since a lot of plot threads on the "Figure out what magic is and why its a thing" don't get followed up on in the story, but its sort of implied that the scenario I gave was more or less the case I think.
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- The Great Beyond
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Because it came up in a thread with public participation about rationalist fiction in general that doesn't in fact exist in the gated community of Only People Who Meet Aris Katsaris's Community Standards as to who can participate.
The only authorative sneering I'm seeing is from you, dude.
And this song and dance where you drag a tangentially related discussion to the topic of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and then bait other people into talking about it, only to sneeringly dismiss literally any criticism as 'oh, you're not actually qualified to make that judgement! Read the entire 100+ chapter fic, or get the fuck out of my conversation (which I have hijacked from the original topic) and stand there as I insult you and deliver threats and claim you're arrogant and sneering. Excuse me, I must arrogantly sneer harder' is so fucking old.
Do you have the physical ability to be civil after forcibly dragging a thread onto your pet topic of Aris Katsaris Shits On Everyone Who Dislikes Any Story He Likes?
I can see the pattern, it's not bloody hard given how blatant you are.
Like. I liked the story for maybe the first thirty chapters, and then increasingly grew to dislike it between revelations that made it clear my earlier interpretations were reading the wrong direction into the story, and that the things I had liked were signs of much worse to come in reality, and then the much worse started happening aggressively, and then I just stopped caring.
A judgement I have been entirely willing to leave to the side in participating in this discussion until seeing you yet again do this toxic song and dance. I'm plenty willing to live and let live about fiction taste, but when you want to make the discussion about how Perfect And Flawless Your Favorite Story is, don't be surprised when people who disagree voice their own opinions.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
...I'm not trying to debate/argue with you? You said "people like it", to which I answered "yup, I do (and given the tone of the thread, this is clearly the unpopular opinion, so I'll add an emoji to show I'm serious)" — I was not trying to look for conflict.
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I have this vague memory of Naruto giving someone a speech about how birth did not mean shit and they could choose who they are.
I kinda started nodding of the series after the tournament arc and Sasuke getting kidnapped, by the time Narutos bloodlines started becomming relevant i was already out so can't say how terrible that may or may not have been, but it did feel jarring to the early series when i heard about it.