Remove ads

Ranking Fallout Factions By Morality

Avernus said:
That just made them more dangerous, and aimed them specifically at New Canaan; they were apparently always that one dimensionally aggressive.

And there's more than enough blame to go around for both groups; Caesar aimed them at New Canaan to destroy it, sure, but it's not like he had to overcome their non-existent scruples in the process of convincing them to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Arming dangerous tribal groups and pointing them at a civilization that you personally dislike and want to get rid of because of a grudge" is, I would argue, morally worse than being part of a dangerous tribal group that was never taught anything besides being looters. In the latter, it's not morally good, but it's understandable. For the former? It's actively taking advantage of those characteristics and giving them just enough knowledge and power to make them a weapon for you, rather than actually teaching them how to farm or settle or anything like that. Like, House forced tribal groups he encountered to civilize, while Sallow had one armed and pointed it at people he didn't like without a care in the world for what they did next. Neither are ideal, but one is clearly morally superior to the other.
 
Last edited:
I like the Legion because they feel like a 'real' Evil Faction.

That is, I can absolutely see Edward Sallow as the sort of Cambridge educated Third World dictator casting philosophical bon mots at the foreign correspondent or American ambassador while outside the walls of his villa his Elite Guard bulldoze dissidents into mass graves.

Compared to say, Burke from Fallout 3 "Howdy stranger, let's nuke this whole city for funsies! How bout it!"

From an ethical standpoint...the slavery, torture, and rape have all been mentioned, but I want to bring up the fact that Legionaires steal children's teddy bears.

This is A Thing.

That they do.
 
The Legion uses guns and tactics. This is so incredibly obvious to anyone who played the game. The Legion are almost guaranteed to win the Da m due to superior strategy.

The rest is fairly agreeable.
 
Nikkolas said:
The Legion uses guns and tactics. This is so incredibly obvious to anyone who played the game. The Legion are almost guaranteed to win the Da m due to superior strategy.

The rest is fairly agreeable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The only reason the Legion had superior strategy was because whoever it was in charge of Hoover Dam wanted to make some great final battle last stand that would have him go down in history. That's not so much praise for the Legion as it is a condemnation of that one specific NCR General.
 
Squirtodyle said:
The only reason the Legion had superior strategy was because whoever it was in charge of Hoover Dam wanted to make some great final battle last stand that would have him go down in history. That's not so much praise for the Legion as it is a condemnation of that one specific NCR General.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Frankly I'm surprised he was even put in charge, but then I take a look at the NCR's other mistakes...Like hiring Fantastic. That one General deserves to have his balls kicked in, and then reassigned to the northernmost territories to freeze the remnants off.
 
By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief (so long as said religion does not advocate violence). Legal protection of Ghouls and other mutants was added in 2205, though enforcement of these rights has been spotty. For the most part, the NCR's practices live up to its ideals, but there has been some retrenchment since the death of President Tandi. Aaron Kimball's popularity was amplified by a reactionary undercurrent, especially among males, calling out a need for a "strong man" to lead the NCR forward. In the years since Kimball took office, male military officers have been promoted disproportionately to females, and discourse arguing the differences between males and females has reappeared.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's amazing how relevant New Vegas is in 2018.
 
Followers of the Apocalypse
NCR
The Railroad
Mr House
Brotherhood of Steel
The Institute
Enclave
Legion
 
Hykal94 said:
It's amazing how relevant New Vegas is in 2018.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
For a few moments I was surprised, as I had never seen this information in the game and it is somewhat strange. However, after the search I realized that this quote from Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide. To be honest, I do not really like information from additional materials. But in the basic, I make this post to indicate the source of information.

blast flame said:
Followers of the Apocalypse
NCR
The Railroad
Mr House
Brotherhood of Steel
The Institute
Enclave
Legion
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Can I find out why you put the Enclave above the Legion? Just on the one hand, the Enclave wanted to kill 99% of the people on the planet ... And on the other side there is the Legion.
 
Ivar said:
Can I find out why you put the Enclave above the Legion? Just on the one hand, the Enclave wanted to kill 99% of the people on the planet ... And on the other side there is the Legion.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As someone who would have made more or less the same list (maybe swapped around a few of them) its the lack of rape, systemic mysogney and slavery that puts the Enclave above the Legion.

Keep in mind, this doesn't make them better, it just means that they're the least worse.
 
Last edited:
Ivar said:
For a few moments I was surprised, as I had never seen this information in the game and it is somewhat strange. However, after the search I realized that this quote from Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide. To be honest, I do not really like information from additional materials. But in the basic, I make this post to indicate the source of information.



Can I find out why you put the Enclave above the Legion? Just on the one hand, the Enclave wanted to kill 99% of the people on the planet ... And on the other side there is the Legion.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was which felt eviller, not a statement about which I'd prefer to win. If that makes sense.

Hykal94 said:
But which BOS? :thonk:

I can understand putting BoS over the Institute though. Because the Institute still makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I was sort of hoping people wouldn't call me on "which BOS".

I was using the FO3 brotherhood to raise the average. Because the shitty normal BOS vs the Intitute? I just don't know. At it's core I like the institute and their general attitude a lot more but then they do pointless evil stuff for no reason and no logic.
 
blast flame said:
I was sort of hoping people wouldn't call me on "which BOS".

I was using the FO3 brotherhood to raise the average. Because the shitty normal BOS vs the Intitute? I just don't know. At it's core I like the institute and their general attitude a lot more but then they do pointless evil stuff for no reason and no logic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[Speech Failed]

The BoS is an interesting case because they are vastly different from iteration to iteration. Consider the following:

FO1: Isolationist, have the Canticle of Laibowitz deal going on, clearly militarist. Will help you save the Wasteland and shares trade with people around them in the good ending.
FO2: Never has the spotlight. Does not directly help the Chosen One like the previous games.
Tactics: The most progressive attitudes, extremely open to outsiders.
FO3: Splinter group, do gooder, Paladin and Knights of old.
NV: Splinter group, on the run from NCR. Situation back in California signifies likely defeat.
FO4: WE ARE SPESS MEHREENS WE ARE THE EMPRAH'S FUREH

It's very much a "which Brotherhood" thing when we need to discuss them ideologically. FO3 is infinitely better than the Institute, but FO4 means they've gone full Astartes being feudal overlords and such.
 
Squirtodyle said:
The only reason the Legion had superior strategy was because whoever it was in charge of Hoover Dam wanted to make some great final battle last stand that would have him go down in history. That's not so much praise for the Legion as it is a condemnation of that one specific NCR General.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It isnt just Lanius sneaking Legion troops into the Dam. There is also the sabotaged monorail at McCarran, the Fiends attacking McCarran, the Omertas attacking the Strip, and Forlorn Hope and Gulf being overrun. Prior to all this was the destruction of Nipton and Searchlight, the former serving more as a demoralizing symbol but still valuable.

The Legion's skill at espionage, subterfuge and propaganda far surpasses the NCR's.
 
Last edited:
JayTee said:
As someone who would have made more or less the same list (maybe swapped around a few of them) its the lack of rape, systemic mysogney and slavery that puts the Enclave above the Legion.

Keep in mind, this doesn't make them better, it just means that they're the least worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Personally I'd put killing as worse than those things, and the enclave wanted to kill a lot more people than the legion wants to do all those things to.
 
Hykal94 said:
Tactics: The most progressive attitudes, extremely open to outsiders.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eeeeeeeh. The "progressive" nature of the Tactics Brotherhood has to be understood in the context of their nature as an expansionist would-be hegemon. They let in outsiders, yes - but those outsiders are conscript-tithes taken from villages they offer "protection" to. And those conscript-initiates are given the worst gear until they "prove themselves". Their relaxation of Brotherhood dogma is a consequence of their initially weak strategic situation - which admittedly, is much more than most other branches of the Brotherhood have managed.

I'd consider them pragmatic over progressive, personally.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Eeeeeeeh. The "progressive" nature of the Tactics Brotherhood has to be understood in the context of their nature as an expansionist would-be hegemon. They let in outsiders, yes - but those outsiders are conscript-tithes taken from villages they offer "protection" to. And those conscript-initiates are given the worst gear until they "prove themselves". Their relaxation of Brotherhood dogma is a consequence of their initially weak strategic situation - which admittedly, is much more than most other branches of the Brotherhood have managed.

I'd consider them pragmatic over progressive, personally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fallout 3 Brotherhood was progressive. I think

Also Nikkolas are you trying to be edgy or do you actually believe what you are saying?
 
Ivar said:
Can I find out why you put the Enclave above the Legion? Just on the one hand, the Enclave wanted to kill 99% of the people on the planet ... And on the other side there is the Legion.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Since I more or less agree with blast flame's list here is my answer on why I would call the Enclave more moral then the Legion: Long Term Effects. Lets consider what would happen if everything went according to each faction's plans.

The Legion would result in a empire of technophobic, sexist, slavers tyrannically ruling over the remnants of America crushing any sign of opposition or dissent through extreme brutality and torture.

The Enclave would rid America, if not the world, of the various monsters currently feasting on humanity. They would then rebuild America with a healthy and well educated population and institute a government that at least resembles democracy.

So while the Enclave's plans for mass genocide definitely drop them near the bottom of the list and their connections to the various evils of the pre-war government certainly don't help they at least have an acceptable end goal.

One could even argue that the Enclave's genocide plan would save lives in the long run. Some quick googling tells me the Fallout 2 NCR pop was around 750k and that by the time of New Vegas it's probably up to 1 million and that they cover more or less an area the size of California. Applying that level of population density to the entire USA, unrealistic I know but this is probably an upper bound on USA population, gives a total of around 19 million people. 19 million lives in exchange for making the USA dramatically more hospitable now rather then in centuries could be a worthwhile trade in terms of maximizing lives lived and happiness felt.

I still crushed the Enclave at every opportunity because indiscriminate genocide is almost never the answer. But at least the argument exists for the Enclave possibly being better for the wasteland. I just can't see any way in which the Legion is anything but trading one type of hell for another.
 
UberJJK said:
Since I more or less agree with blast flame's list here is my answer on why I would call the Enclave more moral then the Legion: Long Term Effects. Lets consider what would happen if everything went according to each faction's plans.

The Legion would result in a empire of technophobic, sexist, slavers tyrannically ruling over the remnants of America crushing any sign of opposition or dissent through extreme brutality and torture.

The Enclave would rid America, if not the world, of the various monsters currently feasting on humanity. They would then rebuild America with a healthy and well educated population and institute a government that at least resembles democracy.

So while the Enclave's plans for mass genocide definitely drop them near the bottom of the list and their connections to the various evils of the pre-war government certainly don't help they at least have an acceptable end goal.

One could even argue that the Enclave's genocide plan would save lives in the long run. Some quick googling tells me the Fallout 2 NCR pop was around 750k and that by the time of New Vegas it's probably up to 1 million and that they cover more or less an area the size of California. Applying that level of population density to the entire USA, unrealistic I know but this is probably an upper bound on USA population, gives a total of around 19 million people. 19 million lives in exchange for making the USA dramatically more hospitable now rather then in centuries could be a worthwhile trade in terms of maximizing lives lived and happiness felt.

I still crushed the Enclave at every opportunity because indiscriminate genocide is almost never the answer. But at least the argument exists for the Enclave possibly being better for the wasteland. I just can't see any way in which the Legion is anything but trading one type of hell for another.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I am in no position to criticise your ethics but you think the Enclave saving themseleves and exterminating everyone else is superior to the Legion assimilating the tribes and peoples they conquer? Caesar createsd the Legion to preserve humanity. The Enclave's goal is to wipe out humanity. Do they even have the numbers to carry out this hypothetical future?
 
Nikkolas said:
I am in no position to criticise your ethics but you think the Enclave saving themseleves and exterminating everyone else is superior to the Legion assimilating the tribes and peoples they conquer? Caesar createsd the Legion to preserve humanity. The Enclave's goal is to wipe out humanity. Do they even have the numbers to carry out this hypothetical future?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If the legion was only assimilating the tribes and peoples they conquered then they would no doubt be the better faction. They aren't though. They rely on a backbone of chattel slavery to prop up their empire. They use women as nothing but broodmares. They torture entire towns to death for opposing them. They actively chose to make their lives worse by forgoing technology under the mistaken belief this somehow makes them better.

Caesar might claim he created the Legion to preserve humanity but all dictators make great claims about how wonderful they are. If you look at the Legion's actual actions ll they do is make life worse for people.

The Enclave and their plans are evil, there is no arguing about that, but at least with there is hope for a better future. Although re-reading the FEV Curling-13 page on the wiki I noticed it only kills humans and human based mutants rather then all mutants. Considering the various animal based mutants roaming the land that shifts their genocidal plans from evil but understandable to evil and stupid.

Still better then the Legion though since at least the Enclave wants a better world rather then a different kind of shitty world.
 
UberJJK said:
If the legion was only assimilating the tribes and peoples they conquered then they would no doubt be the better faction. They aren't though. They rely on a backbone of chattel slavery to prop up their empire. They use women as nothing but broodmares. They torture entire towns to death for opposing them. They actively chose to make their lives worse by forgoing technology under the mistaken belief this somehow makes them better.

Caesar might claim he created the Legion to preserve humanity but all dictators make great claims about how wonderful they are. If you look at the Legion's actual actions ll they do is make life worse for people.

The Enclave and their plans are evil, there is no arguing about that, but at least with there is hope for a better future. Although re-reading the FEV Curling-13 page on the wiki I noticed it only kills humans and human based mutants rather then all mutants. Considering the various animal based mutants roaming the land that shifts their genocidal plans from evil but understandable to evil and stupid.

Still better then the Legion though since at least the Enclave wants a better world rather then a different kind of shitty world.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I did not know that about the FEV either.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top