Proposing a ban on AI-generated content

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In response to the original proposal: while I believe tagging is a good idea, I for one firmly oppose a ban on AI works.

I appreciate AI, and I appreciate quality fanfics. If an AI writes a good fanfic that I would enjoy, I will read it and enjoy it.
 
Personally, I am fine with option for users to tag their content as using AI generation. It doesn't hurt anyone. Actually banning content or enforcing tagging is strictly no-no, as such things will be impossible to enforce.

And by the way, I'm going to assume "looking at artwork" is in reference to... er... using reference images. This isn't the same as scraping images and feeding it into a neural net - for starters, reference images are for referencing, we're not compositing things into an imitation by way of some algorithm, we're interpreting how bodies and scenes should work.

AI doesn't do things with intent or interpretation. It's an algorithm.

Except that is literally what AI does. Your "interpretation" is just another algorithm. One born from chemical processes, rather than digital, but still a set of rules used to problem solving. And yes, image composition is a problem that needs to be solved.

To AI, none the images is "this exactly". It's all impression, general idea of what goes where based on all those reference images it has been fed. It's taking an impression from all those references.

So far, the argument put forth doesn't seem to be anything but special pleading for humans.

Hell, if we were going to draw comparisons between what humans do and what AI art does, the closest human analogue would be 'tracing', and we artists don't like that either. But you respect machines too much and artists too little to accept that, because you're hype for the toy techbros are dangling in front of you and don't want to pay the artists whose work it uses as a base.

I repeat what I asked earlier, do we ban memes too?
 
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Last I checked, none of the art models "can project images from their memory and/or imagination directly onto canvas". There is no image stored somewhere in the model that is taken and directly applied to image. Art models aren't cut-and-paste, they are much more like humans: Vague impression of what X is.
You got it absolutely backwards: all they can do is project an image. AI models don't draw, they dream up. There is no canvas, no brush, no paint, no rough draft, no refined draft, none of the actual labor an artist performs between imagining what they want to draw and showing the final picture to others. Yes, artists do do something very similar to what an AI model does… as a step zero, out of many, all of which AI model skips.

And unlike human artists, artificial neural networks don't have non-art data cluttering their weights, which means that the process is much closer to a lossier version of "cut-and-paste" than you might be comfortable admitting, although I'd say "tracing on top of a blurry jpeg" is a more apt way to put it.
 
Your "interpretation" is just another algorithm. One born from chemical processes, rather than digital, but still a set of rules used to problem solving. And yes, image composition is a problem that needs to be solved.
Source or GTFO, because I'm not gonna take the argument that your brain is just some 'chemical algorithm' on faith alone. This reeks of pulp-scifi 'humans are just algorithms' nonsense.

It sounds more like an excuse to value the work of machines over people.

I repeat what I asked earlier, do we ban memes too?
Can you explain how 'ban memes' is the same as 'tag AI art?'
I'm not even arguing for a ban on this site, so I don't know where you're drawing 'ban' from, much less where memes come into play. Is there an epidemic of people claiming their reposted memes as their own?

Edit: Or is in any way relevant to the argument about tracing? This really isn't making any sense here. It makes even less sense in the context of what you quoted me on.

Looking at artwork. At all. In order to not be a "thief" by the standards being used an artist would have to be raised in a dark box without human contact from childhood.
... what?
 
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Source or GTFO, because I'm not gonna take the argument that your brain is just some 'chemical algorithm' on faith alone. This reeks of pulp-scifi 'humans are just algorithms' nonsense.

It sounds more like an excuse to value the work of machines over people.
The idea that human brain works on math rather than magic is not pulp-scifi, it's just the general consensus of… well, everyone except people who really want it to be magic. That's not particularly controversial.

That is not to say that you should just accept "it's all algorithms" as a valid argument for treating AI art as original art — you shouldn't. After all, by these standards "cut-and-paste" would be considered "not a plagiarism" as well, not to mention more transformative algorithms like, say, jpeg compression.
 
If you ban it instead of just asking people to clarify when they're using it, well, they'll still post it, of course, but now without disclosing it, and it'll be even harder to filter it out.
 
You got it absolutely backwards: all they can do is project an image. AI models don't draw, they dream up. There is no canvas, no brush, no paint, no rough draft, no refined draft, none of the actual labor an artist performs between imagining what they want to draw and showing the final picture to others. Yes, artists do do something very similar to what an AI model does… as a step zero, out of many, all of which AI model skips.

You are adding extra steps into the process to define "real art".

Honestly, right now you are entering into realm where we are to ask "what even is art", because your definition here makes so that anyone using digital tools is not an artist because no stuff you list. Or how about those who do splatter painting? Is that not "real art" because there is no rough draft or refined draft or anything, just paint being thrown at the cloth and called "art"? Do you believe that Jackson Pollock was not an artist?

See, if we are going this route, we should have solid definition of "what is True Art" so we can say what is, and isn't, art. Is a child drawing lines on paper art? Is someone setting up a bucket and a swing to put paint on canvas a art? Notice how there is no draft, no brush, no actual labor since all work is done by paint and bucket.

But if we define "putting paint into bucket and making it swing, then curating result" as labour, what is difference when it comes to people who need to constantly adjust weights and prompts, perhaps even drawing a reference picture? Is that not labour?

Source or GTFO, because I'm not gonna take the argument that your brain is just some 'chemical algorithm' on faith alone. This reeks of pulp-scifi 'humans are just algorithms' nonsense.

It sounds more like an excuse to value the work of machines over people.

I trust you can prove that there is some quantifiable "human" element that is separate from, well, how actual humans work? Our brains are chemical computers. Can you prove existence of "soul" that separates us from everything else?

My argument is that we are part of the natural world, with all the limitations and results that come from it. You, on the other hand, are right now arguing there is some inexplicable quantity that only a living beings posses that separates us from computers.

I am going to give you a hint: there is no difference between living human and non-living human, except end of chemical processes (which get replaced by another chemical processes). Our brains don't think everything through, they use shortcuts, or as you would call them, algorithms to quickly solve problems we face every single day. Something as simple as walking is our brain running an algorithm on the background to make millions of micro adjustments to make sure we keep falling forward, without falling down.

That is not to say that you should just accept "it's all algorithms" as a valid argument for treating AI art as original art — you shouldn't. After all, by these standards "cut-and-paste" would be considered "not a plagiarism" as well, not to mention more transformative algorithms like, say, jpeg compression.

My point was less "it's all algorithms", it was rejection of notion that what computers do is "just an algorithm", as if humans have some strange exclusive inner power (often called "soul") that gives art meaning.
 
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Honestly, right now you are entering into realm where we are to ask "what even is art", because your definition here makes so that anyone using digital tools is not an artist because no stuff you list. Or how about those who do splatter painting? Is that not "real art" because there is no rough draft or refined draft or anything, just paint being thrown at the cloth and called "art"? Do you believe that Jackson Pollock was not an artist?
Or nature photographs and other photographic art. Done by a machine, and unlike "AI" it does directly transpose the image. Is that "not art"?
 
The idea that human brain works on math rather than magic is not pulp-scifi, it's just the general consensus of… well, everyone except people who really want it to be magic. That's not particularly controversial.

That is not to say that you should just accept "it's all algorithms" as a valid argument for treating AI art as original art — you shouldn't. After all, by these standards "cut-and-paste" would be considered "not a plagiarism" as well, not to mention more transformative algorithms like, say, jpeg compression.

On a lighter note, while I understand the comparison of the brain to a machine as a imprecise metaphor, I don't accept it as fact. Not because I want it to be magic, but because I think the description of the brain working on 'math' is only true as much as you can call biology math. This is true insofar as biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, and physics is math, which is all well and good and theoretical until a bundle of math translates itself upon another bundle of math and violently performs some transposition. ;)

No, we're not doing this argument here. This isn't a conversation about "what is art". You're the one dragging this conversation into weird and wild directions. The post you quoted isn't about 'AI art isn't real art', it's talking about the difference in processes and why one is mere imitation of existing work and the other is actual generation.

I trust you can prove that there is some quantifiable "human" element that is separate from, well, how actual humans work? Our brains are chemical computers. Can you prove existence of "soul" that separates us from everything else?

My argument is that we are part of the natural world, with all the limitations and results that come from it. You, on the other hand, are right now arguing there is some inexplicable quantity that only a living beings posses that separates us from computers.
I have no interest in performing masturbatory navelgazing on the nature of "the humans soul", nor did I posit the existence of such, so pardon me if I reject your call to prove the words that you put in my mouth. I take art commissions, not philosophy commissions.

Also an algorithm isn't a 'natural shortcut', it's a rigorous sequence of instructions (or calculations or what have you). A math nerd could tell you more than I could on the formal definition, but calling it a 'shortcut' is just wrong. Maybe you're thinking of a method in the programmatic sense? But the human brain isn't a method either.
 
Or nature photographs and other photographic art. Done by a machine, and unlike "AI" it does directly transpose the image. Is that "not art"?
I actually find the artistry of photography in capturing the essence of a subject, as determined by the photographer, and the artistry is in the manipulation of the camera and the composition of the shot (which involves a great many conscious decisions on how to best capture an image).

There's a lot of artistic decisions when it comes to photography that you wouldn't consider if you thought 'photography is just taking a picture of a thing'. I can't do the subject justice, but there's more to photography than pointing a camera at an object and taking its picture. The creation of the photo itself is an entire artistic process - saying it's 'done by a machine' fundamentally misunderstands the process.

If you put a gun to my head about it, I'd also probably separate photography as art from things like technical photographs or scientific photographs and what not, but honestly this whole thing is kinda irrelevant to the conversation IMHO.
 
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No, we're not doing this argument here. This isn't a conversation about "what is art". You're the one dragging this conversation into weird and wild directions. The post you quoted isn't about 'AI art isn't real art', it's talking about the difference in processes and why one is mere imitation of existing work and the other is actual generation.
In other words, "I refuse to discuss the definition of Real Art, and here's my proclamation on why AI doesn't create Real Art". You're trying to have it both ways.

I actually find the artistry of photography in capturing the essence of a subject, as determined by the photographer, and the artistry is in the manipulation of the camera and the composition of the shot (which involves a great many conscious decisions on how to best capture an image).
In other words, just like somebody looking at the output on an AI and deciding what looks best.
 
You are adding extra steps into the process to define "real art".

Honestly, right now you are entering into realm where we are to ask "what even is art", because your definition here makes so that anyone using digital tools is not an artist because no stuff you list. Or how about those who do splatter painting? Is that not "real art" because there is no rough draft or refined draft or anything, just paint being thrown at the cloth and called "art"? Do you believe that Jackson Pollock was not an artist?
That was a list of examples, not an exhaustive definition. You are being deliberately obtuse here.

Furthermore, those "extra" steps are kind of important. Just because photography is art, doesn't mean me looking at the drying laundry right now is art, and just because digital art is art doesn't mean me imagining a three-headed Mona Lisa right now is art. Both of those images only exist in my (and, now, your) imagination. What an artist does is take that idea and gives it shape with whatever tools they have, and what an AI tool does is take that idea and show it immediately. Those two things are not the same, and pretending that they are is disingenuous regardless of your and mine opinions on paint buckets.
 
It's impressive how each time the topic comes up, people aren't happy with just "yeah i like drawing software, it allows me to get pictures more easily" or whatever, no, it's always some spiteful "i am a real artist too!!!!" like my dude who are you trying to convince here, youself?
 
It's impressive how each time the topic comes up, people aren't happy with just "yeah i like drawing software, it allows me to get pictures more easily" or whatever, no, it's always some spiteful "i am a real artist too!!!!" like my dude who are you trying to convince here, youself?
The people being "spiteful" are the anti-AI crowd calling their opponents thieves and in general showing contempt for them.
 
In other words, "I refuse to discuss the definition of Real Art, and here's my proclamation on why AI doesn't create Real Art". You're trying to have it both ways.
This isn't about "what is real art". As someone with rather permissive views of "what is real art" it's annoying as shit to hear someone double down on an implicit accusation of gatekeeping. If you were interested in the argument, you'd read the rest of the thread to understand the objections, not box with your imagination of what I'm talking about.

In other words, just like somebody looking at the output on an AI and deciding what looks best.

Also that's not how photography really works. Someone working with an art generator is more like a commissioner. They only care about the work produced to the point that it satisfies their criteria - they're not creating something themselves, they're providing a list of parameters for an algorithm to produce based on prior inputs.

A photographer manipulates their instrument and is responsible for the image's creation directly. The camera is a tool as much as it is a pen, and the photographer is choosing the object of their image, the lighting, the exposure, the angle, the focal length... ETC. A photographer is not telling the camera 'I desire a picture of an apple backlit by the moon' and the camera is not going out and searching a massive databank of pre-made photographs scraped from the galleries of every other photographer with a google presence (plus some private medical images besides, some how).

For all your complaints about 'Real Art', you're really showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what the artistic process actually is.

Edit: (Also 'Spitefully calling you a criminal'? Really? Are we going back to the persecution complex?)
 
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@A Small Bird
@Rgal

It is relevant due to arguments for AI ban or restrictions being put forth. If the argument is "We need to restrict/ban AI generated content because it is not real art and damages real artist", one kinda needs to establish what is "real art" done by "real artist". If the argument is that AI "steals" or "copies" art, that it doesn't "imagine" or "doesn't involve labour", one needs to actually define what are the requirements for something to be considered to be protected as "real art".

Problem I have with this is basis of the argument. I don't personally mind if forum has optional tag for people to use for AI generated content, but when people start to argue that these people aren't "real artist" and it can not be "real art", while being unable and unwilling to actually define "real art" in any solid

If the argument was just "I don't like generated AI content, and I would like to avoid it if possible" that would be just fine. I can respect that. Arguing that it is not "real", and thus needs to be banned/restricted, runs into issue that you need to define what is "real"

Also that's not how photography really works. Someone working with an art generator is more like a commissioner. They only care about the work produced to the point that it satisfies their criteria - they're not creating something themselves, they're providing a list of parameters for an algorithm to produce based on prior inputs.

A photographer manipulates their instrument and is responsible for the image's creation directly. The camera is a tool as much as it is a pen, and the photographer is choosing the object of their image, the lighting, the exposure, the angle, the focal length... ETC. A photographer is not telling the camera 'I desire a picture of an apple backlit by the moon' and the camera is not going out and searching a massive databank of pre-made photographs scraped from the galleries of every other photographer with a google presence (plus some private medical images besides, some how).

This is... well, this is exactly what I meant. Photography is defended as "real" because photographer manipulates their instrument. Yet, if you look at people who actually do use art models, they do actually spend a lot of time manipulating that generator. Adjusting weights, prompts, maybe even drawing a reference picture of where stuff is supposed to be. They are going to have to choose the subject, then work the generator to get what they want, to work out what adjustments need to be done. Like, I dare you to get me Mario and Samus Aran doing the JoJo walk pose from art ml without some serious work.

To dismiss all that, yet saying that photography is "real" because instrument is manipulated... well, imagine if those who did hand drawn animations said that those using computers to animate aren't doing the "real" work because they don't draw every frame. That is very much the same argument put forth here.
 
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The argument has nothing to do with 'its not real art' and everything to do with 'the systems that produce it are built on unethical practices and and the usage of those systems harms artists'.
If you want to pretend the conversation is about gatekeeping and not about the harmful usage of this new technology then that's on you.

I accept we're really not likely to see a ban on this site (much less an enforceable one) but stop pretending it's about 'what is real art'.

The only reason Avernus keeps bringing it up is as a diversion from the topic, and his comparisons to photography require me to talk about what photography actually is, and why it's not like an AI art generator.
 
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Also that's not how photography really works. Someone working with an art generator is more like a commissioner. They only care about the work produced to the point that it satisfies their criteria - they're not creating something themselves, they're providing a list of parameters for an algorithm to produce based on prior inputs.

A photographer manipulates their instrument and is responsible for the image's creation directly. The camera is a tool as much as it is a pen, and the photographer is choosing the object of their image, the lighting, the exposure, the angle, the focal length... ETC. A photographer is not telling the camera 'I desire a picture of an apple backlit by the moon' and the camera is not going out and searching a massive databank of pre-made photographs scraped from the galleries of every other photographer with a google presence (plus some private medical images besides, some how).

For all your complaints about 'Real Art', you're really showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what the artistic process actually is.

Edit: (Also 'Spitefully calling you a criminal'? Really? Are we going back to the persecution complex?)
I don't make AI art or any other kind in the first place, so no.

And you very much are trying to claim AI art isn't "Real Art", you just refuse to use the words.

And, the "massive databank of pre-made photographs" is called "the physical world." If anything photography is much less original and interpretive than AI art.
 
I don't make AI art or any other kind in the first place, so no.

And you very much are trying to claim AI art isn't "Real Art", you just refuse to use the words.

And, the "massive databank of pre-made photographs" is called "the physical world." If anything photography is much less original and interpretive than AI art.
You do realize saying "[I'm] refusing to use [your] words" is basically just admitting you're putting words in my mouth, right? Especially when I've told you constantly this isn't about whether it's real art or not?

I don't have a principled stance against the technology itself. I don't -like- it or -care- for it, but honestly the technology itself isn't problematic to me. You just keep ignoring the actual important component of this conversation while trying to drag it back into your obsession about whether AI art is 'real art'

Also I don't mean to spaghettify your post, but
And, the "massive databank of pre-made photographs" is called "the physical world." If anything photography is much less original and interpretive than AI art.
... god if this was an actual conversation about what 'what is art', this would be more funny and less depressing.
 
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You do realize saying "[I'm] refusing to use [your] words" is basically just admitting you're putting words in my mouth, right?
No, it's pointing out you are contradicting yourself. You are trying to define AI art as "not art" while also trying to shut down any argument against your position by denying you are and condemning anyone who brings it up. Along with throwing out one insult after the other while preemptively accusing people of having a "persecution complex".
 
The argument has nothing to do with 'its not real art' and everything to do with 'the systems that produce it are built on unethical practices and and the usage of those systems harms artists'.
If you want to pretend the conversation is about gatekeeping and not about the harmful usage of this new technology then that's on you.

But that is the basis of your argument. After all, you argument was:

And by the way, I'm going to assume "looking at artwork" is in reference to... er... using reference images. This isn't the same as scraping images and feeding it into a neural net - for starters, reference images are for referencing, we're not compositing things into an imitation by way of some algorithm, we're interpreting how bodies and scenes should work.

AI doesn't do things with intent or interpretation. It's an algorithm.

Hell, if we were going to draw comparisons between what humans do and what AI art does, the closest human analogue would be 'tracing', and we artists don't like that either. But you respect machines too much and artists too little to accept that, because you're hype for the toy techbros are dangling in front of you and don't want to pay artists for the work that's being stolen in order to build it.

Because that's what the ethical issue is: The images being scraped for training without permission, not the technology itself.

And when pointed out that this is no different from how artist use other artists work as reference, you started to defend the stance as that being "real" art and somehow different.

Art models don't trace images, which is the comparison you tried to draw. They use images as reference to figure out that when person ask"dog running on a green hill" what those elements are and how to position them. It doesn't take one specific picture of dog, trace over it, then green hill and trace over that and combine two. Rather, it generates an impression based on all the images it has been fed with appropriate tags.
 
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No, it's pointing out you are contradicting yourself. You are trying to define AI art as "not art" while also trying to shut down any argument against your position by denying you are and condemning anyone who brings it up. Along with throwing out one insult after the other while preemptively accusing people of having a "persecution complex".
I'm not contradicting myself in the slightest, and this conversation still isn't about what is and isn't real art. I'm going to begin quoting this portion of this reply at you every time you reply to me and ignore the 'ethics' portion of the conversation.

Thank you and have a nice night.


But that is the basis of your argument. After all, you argument was-
No it wasn't. The basis of my argument was and is (as I've reminded you constantly throughout this conversation) that my objections to AI art are that the systems that generate it, at current, are unethical as they scrape artists' work without permission.

That you've refused to acknowledge this point makes me believe you have no counterargument against this, and that the 'real art' diversion is just that. A diversion.

[snip about my comparison to tracing]
I explained the differences because you keep bringing up comparisons to artists making pictures, but ironically enough the quote you just used proves my point above - that my argument is about the ethical concerns because it's a system that directly uses other artists' work in order to create an image. That was the purpose of the comparison, and tracing is the best comparison to reach for.

The fact that you think my complaint is about what 'real art' is means you don't understand my argument or position. Not that you disagree with it, but that you don't understand it to begin with.
 
We would never say of someone who told a human artist to, say, "draw me a foxgirl cleric with a glaive" that they were making the art.

On those grounds I'm in favor of disclosing who, or what, you commission your art from. Of making that mandatory, even: it's dishonest to claim that you created work you merely commissioned.
 
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