Then you have to ensure that it doesn't come to that.
Pick your fights.
Pick the battlefield.
Lay traps.
etc. etc.
Warring smart is better then idiotically fighting.
Power Games (Nanoha fanfic)
- Thread starter Aleph
- Start date
Then you have to ensure that it doesn't come to that.
Pick your fights.
Pick the battlefield.
Lay traps.
etc. etc.
Warring smart is better then idiotically fighting.
Yes. And the other side is trying to deny you those options and force you into non-optimal situations and going "fight smart" is not some revolutionary tactical option which will SHOCK AND AWE your enemies.
And when you're putting the SS-rank Precia against the S-rank Zest or Signum and their backup teams, the tactical edge isn't with Precia. She's not the military mind.
I was talking generally and strategically, not to this specific instance.
There's no reason to hold a fight if you have other options.
And if all else fails, shock and awe through overwhelming force, or threatening critical targets, is generally beneficial. Falling back is also an option.
There is a reason why artillery is called the king of the battlefield.
Sander093
Batshit Insane
Actually that would be the mini time vortex in my cpu glitching out.
And that's what the expendable airforce dudes/replicator bots/familiars/clones are for.
Two can play that game.
No see you're missing the entire point. Actual skill at combat can tilt the battle massively in your favor even if the enemy has greater resources. Precia would lose horribly against an opponent with equal levels of "resources" if that opponent specialized in combat.
It depends on the level of difference. Even the most skilled warrior is nothing next to an Arc Heavy raid.
Furthermore, greater resources allows a person to CHOOSE their fights to a greater degree.
If you know where all the enemy forces are, then you have the ability to pick your battle ground.
If you have more room, you can fall back and let the enemy exhaust themselves on the approach.
If you know how your enemy fights, find a battleground to their disadvantage. Find out what scares them and create those illusions to help get surprise.
Olive
Silent Princess
Didn't ES come in just before and announce that 'fighting smart' and 'battlefield control,' are not at all revolutionary concepts? This is known. Further, once a mage with comparable rank, focussed in combat attacks a Precia-build, the combat mage has the advantage given that they have so much more practice in actual fighting, as well having loadsa spells they can tie together.
Not quite as much as someone who doesn't have to calculate complex flight paths for themselves, true, but the point still stands.
That's why I'm saying that the BETTER battlefield control will win more often than not.
The MORE SKILLFUL USE OF RESOURCES can negate fighting skill to a frequently overwhelming degree.
There was one story where Precia attacked the Arthra before it could reach Earth, sending it back for repairs until after the Jewel Seed arc was over. The TSAB became essentially a non-factor.
And everyone else here is wondering what, precisely, you think fighting skills are.
flailing around with swords and fists and aerial dogfighting
Olive
Silent Princess
So you're reducing pretty much every member of the cast to someone with a jetpack and a piece of metal. Riiiiight.
Where are you getting this from?
They use spells to fly, for one thing.
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
Yes, someone who is capable of setting up binds, laying traps, causing distractions, flanking, deceiving, and teleporting is clearly just flailing around and getting into dogfights. Let's ignore how Zest shot lances down at Fate at rapid speeds, or how Fate dodged the attacks at near supersonic speeds. Or let's forget Vesta's use of binds, traps, and invisibility to compliment Nanoha's ability to gather ambient energy into a huge F*ck off blast.
This is clearly not the use of resources or skill.
This is clearly not the use of resources or skill.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Olive's point is that there is much, much more to "fighting skill" than "flailing around with swords and fists and aerial dogfighting".
A rather good example would be Fate and Nanoha. Currently, Fate is still better at magic, but Nanoha is fast catching up, since her learning curve for spells is something just short of "utterly fucking hax".
However.
Nanoha may well be - and certainly will become, by the time they're adults - the better spellcaster. Give them both a spell - almost any spell, barring ones that fall into their relevant specialities, like shooting magic or speed spells - and Nanoha can learn it faster, cast with more control and precision, and understand it more comprehensively. The breadth of spells she knows; her "library", will very soon outstrip Fate's, if indeed it hasn't already done so.
Fate can still beat her - not just beat her, but kick her ass - about four times out of five in sparring matches.
Why is this? Because Fate is the better fighter. Nanoha might have more spells, or fancier spells that are complicated and sophisticated and powerful. But there is a difference between "knowing how to cast a spell" and "knowing how to use a spell in combat". There is a difference between "knowing fighting magic" and "actually fighting".
Fate is very, very good at combat. Precia actually isn't sure whether this is due to Project Fate or just a natural trait stemming from some sort of cosmic joke, but despite having what I tend to call a "healer personality" - an empathetic, caring, nurturing outlook on the world which doesn't like to see people hurt, and tries to ease suffering where it's encountered - Fate just gets combat, on a level that Nanoha simply doesn't. She has the instinct for it. She can read her opponent, she can think ahead, she knows where and when and how to use her tools - be they scythe-blade or shooting spell or a freaking sushi bowl - to best effectiveness, or at least to high effectiveness. She doesn't freeze, she doesn't often panic (at least not until after she's lost, like when Zafira caught her and she thought Alicia was dead), she doesn't stop in the middle of a fight to think "okay, now what's my next move?" or plan ahead too far. These skills, the skills one uses in actual fighting; they're distinct from simply knowing a lot of spells that can be used to shoot someone. Handing someone a gun and showing them how to fire it does not make them a soldier. And while these skills; the skills pertaining to the process of combat, can be taught, they still come a lot more naturally to some people than others.
They don't just apply to a one-on-one in-person fight, either. Look at the end of Game Theory. Fate and Nanoha were both put in charge of one aspect of the Garden's systems. Nanoha got the outer defences, tried a bunch of complex flashy stuff, got flustered, panicked, messed up and broke half the Garden. Fate got put in charge of the inner defences, set up a beautifully vicious trap network, used the tools she had in ways she knew would work, and quickly and efficiently took out almost everyone who managed to board the Garden. Linith saw this quite early on while she was training Fate. It's one of the reasons Precia so firmly decided to use Fate efficiently as a valuable asset. Nanoha is better at magic, but Fate is the better fighter, and it shows.
Precia, then, is even further down the line between them. She is very, very, very good at magic indeed. But she's still not very good at fighting. And neither is she particularly good at military tactics and strategy - and yes, 00Zy99, that includes the kind of strategy that goes into contests of "I want to fight you on my terms, where I can just blast you from range", vs "we're going to foul up your operations and stop you from being able to do that, then box you into a corner so that you have to fight us in person where we can murder you". You will notice that despite all of the defences she set the Garden up with, Zest and Quint still penetrated in to fight her, and it was only the fact that she was running off a Jewel Seed tap at wtf levels of power while the Garden fell apart around them that allowed her to survive that confrontation (and Zest still noted that she was flagging, and that if Fate hadn't arrived and cast several healing spells on her, she'd probably have collapsed in a few more minutes).
TL,DR: Using your tools and resources efficiently and on the fly to outmanoeuvre your opponent, force them into a confrontation they cannot win and then crush them, while they do the same to you and make things go horribly wrong with your plans, is a form of fighting skill. It's called "tactics and strategy". Precia is good at planning, but when it comes to dedicated military tactics and assaults, she is not the biggest chick on the block.
After all, the biggest chick on the block would technically be Heidi, who is almost as tall as Zest.
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My point is that tactics and strategy (ESPECIALLY strategy and closely related logistics) are different from how to swing swords and have reflexes.
I have the ability to figure out advances and know how to plan an ambush. I can point an army in the right direction to create pincers and the like.
However, I have a heart condition and mal-formed ankles. I will never be able to be an athlete and I have terrible reaction times and reflexes.
Any idiot can have lightning fast reflexes and throw a fast ball.
Application of resources and shaping the battlefield are NOT the same thing as swinging a sword around. Look at Hayate for an example.
That sniper guy in StrikerS.
Would you call HIM a "fighter"? Look at the various Long Arch support staff. Look at Amy. All of them are arguably just as critical to success as Fate.
I have the ability to figure out advances and know how to plan an ambush. I can point an army in the right direction to create pincers and the like.
However, I have a heart condition and mal-formed ankles. I will never be able to be an athlete and I have terrible reaction times and reflexes.
Any idiot can have lightning fast reflexes and throw a fast ball.
Application of resources and shaping the battlefield are NOT the same thing as swinging a sword around. Look at Hayate for an example.
That sniper guy in StrikerS.
Would you call HIM a "fighter"? Look at the various Long Arch support staff. Look at Amy. All of them are arguably just as critical to success as Fate.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Man 00Zy99, are you even reading what Aleph is saying? To be relevant in a high-level mage fight you have to be able to apply and budget resources and shape the battlefield to various degrees. Hell, being S-Rank is all about having a battle-defining focus that has to be countered if the other guy doesn't want to get facerolled. Like, say, Fate's absolutely obscene speed-blitzing that renders anyone without substantially superhuman reactions irrelevant. It's kinda hard to implement a strategy when the other guy can go from outside your engagement range to nailing your squishy center faster than you can react.
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
You seemed to have missed the fact that while Precia is decent at strategy, tactics, and possibly logistics, the TSAB is an entire organization dedicated to hunting down dangerous artifacts and wanted criminals. In war, the winner is usually the one who can counter the other's strategy, and this means figuring out what that is. But in order to make sure your own strategy isn't figured out, you need to keep it hidden. Precia is not the best when it comes to layering her strategies and misdirecting the enemy. The TSAB has staff dedicated to doing exactly this.
Also, being effective in combat is not nearly as easy or simple as you make it out to be. There's a reason pre-gunpowder weapons usually took a long time to learn. Spears were one of the few exceptions, and were generally outperformed by a competent sword user who could get inside the opponent's guard.
And there's also the fact that, in combat, YOU ARE USING A RESOURCE! It's called stamina, and it is a resource. You can't overextend or over exert yourself, you can't wail away at an opponent and hope you get a lucky hit. You have to take advantage of openings, provide feints, and so on. Hell, this goes double for mages, as their mana is a prime resource for the fight, and they can only have so much of it.
And Hayate's spells are big and powerful, but they use up energy. If someone is able to tank or dodge her attacks, then they can just outlast her and then blitz her. Also, no, no one would call a sniper a fighter, at all. They are supposed to sit back, away from the lines, and get anyone they see. But when things go wrong, they're not flexible combatants who can adjust to the field of battle and keep their own rhythm.
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THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
These staff are the resources that I'm talking about.
And these complex skills are the ones that I'm dismissing as being less important. I UNDERSTAND that it's really tough to wield such weapons-I've taken part in demonstrations with them. I KNOW about how they work to a degree, and I know enough to know that there's A LOT more that I don't know. I also know-partly based on my discussions with experts-that skills with these are unimportant in the face of a better strategist.
Did you notice the part where I discussed falling back to wear your enemy out?
Fate, you beat with an ambush.
Hayate, you beat with stealth.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
How, precisely, do you ambush someone with automated defenses (autoguard), and the ability to exit the battlezone with absurd speed and maneuverabilty (Sonic form). Its pretty much impossible to make Fate stick around for a fight she doesn't want unless she's defending a static target, in which case, no ambush for you because she has home field advantage.
Olive
Silent Princess
She runs away.