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Pondering What the MCU Might Have Done Better

1812 said:
Biggest issue? The canonisation of the black hole that is Tony Stark.
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I think they really dropped the ball Age Of Ultron by making it a product of Tony instead both Hank and Darren (Hank pushed for the development of Ultron to keep SHIELD from doing commiting more atrocities while Darren wants to use Ultron to destroy The Avengers because of Hank's estranged relationship with anything to do with the Starks and enlist the help of the Maximoffs to carry out the plan)

Plus the chance to have robot ant invasion was a missed opportunity

"What do we call them, antnites, nanites..."

"My protegee's attempt to destroy humanity just to get back at you."
 
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I just think that there's too much Tony. Tony does this, Tony did that, Tony, Tony, Tony, BLOODY TONY. Sure, Robert Downey Jr is tremendous in the role, and Iron Man is a classic character, and yes, they tried for a Justice League style power trio (Cap, Stark, Thor), but... everything always seems to revolve back to Tony, every film, every arc, seems to have Tony sucking up the limelight somewhere in the script, the Spider Man films being the worst offenders in this regard. Apparently, Tony's in the Black Widow movie. Of course he is :rolleyes:.

ED: You know what? It could make for a pub quiz question: "The name of which 90s R&B group could also be used to summarize, in a nutshell, almost the entirety of the Marvel Cinematic Universe?"

Answer: Tony! Toni! Tone!
 
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no. said:
You're thinking Watsonian. Instead ask yourself this: why did Marvel's writers make the writing decision to have Peter, who has almost always represented the working class, become Iron Man's apprentice right off the bat? Why did they decide that that would make for a better story, for a better Spider-Man? Why did they make yet another subplot to firmly entrench Tony Stark as the most important character in the narrative and the universe by a long shot?
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Because Spiderman has always been alone moviewise. No other fellow heroes belonging to Sony before into the Spiderverse, it was Peter Parker against the world for as long as everyone remember and the same story thread retold over and over.

Now you have someone in a setting that isn't alone anymore, that heroes beyond just him exist and they got their own threats to face off against as well with an expanded metaplot that Peter has no clue about.

What happens when you aren't the only hero in time in a time when the things Peter do as a crimefighter isn't necessary like foiling a bank robbery?
 
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gyrobot said:
Because Spiderman has always been alone moviewise. No other fellow heroes belonging to Sony before into the Spiderverse, it was Peter Parker against the world for as long as everyone remember and the same story thread retold over and over.

Now you have someone in a setting that isn't alone anymore, that heroes beyond just him exist and they got their own threats to face off against as well with an expanded metaplot that Peter has no clue about.

What happens when you aren't the only hero in time in a time when the things Peter do as a crimefighter isn't necessary like foiling a bank robbery?
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The thing is, if you think about it, nobody in the MCU actually bothers with more mundane crimes. The audience never sees Iron Man stop by and help during a car chase or Captain America prevent somebody from getting mugged. Black Window is a super spy, and so is Hawkeye, so both of them practically live in a separate world together, and that's not even mentioning Thor or Captain Marvel.

There are Netflix shows, I suppose, except those are gone now. Thus, when the subject of more "blue collar" crimes, there's only Spider-Man, who was set up by the end of his first movie to aspire to be one such "friendly neighborhood" hero. Even then, his second movie and his appearance in Infinity War and Endgame backtracks on this progression to tie him down to something far less "friendly neighborhood."
 
Suzu said:
The thing is, if you think about it, nobody in the MCU actually bothers with more mundane crimes. The audience never sees Iron Man stop by and help during a car chase or Captain America prevent somebody from getting mugged. Black Window is a super spy, and so is Hawkeye, so both of them practically live in a separate world together, and that's not even mentioning Thor or Captain Marvel.

There are Netflix shows, I suppose, except those are gone now. Thus, when the subject of more "blue collar" crimes, there's only Spider-Man, who was set up by the end of his first movie to aspire to be one such "friendly neighborhood" hero. Even then, his second movie and his appearance in Infinity War and Endgame backtracks on this progression to tie him down to something far less "friendly neighborhood."
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These days, employees aren't even allowed to chase people for shoplifting, if they demand money from you, smile and hand them their cash and wait for them to leave.

And besides, Spiderman Homecoming shows the day to day of Spiderman's life as a crimefighter, not much to do anymore except as publicity and good samaritan work
 
Funny to consider that the MCU has ended up in this odd middle ground where the mundane doesn't come in often, but at the same time the geopolitics are kept vague at most and the cosmic stuff, when it does come crashing in, often feels smaller than it should.
 
bluntblade said:
Funny to consider that the MCU has ended up in this odd middle ground where the mundane doesn't come in often, but at the same time the geopolitics are kept vague at most and the cosmic stuff, when it does come crashing in, often feels smaller than it should.
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Well times have changed, Manhattan is no longer affordable to guys like Spidey, the response to robberies is not a broad daylight robbery as security laughably fail to stop the villains with tech but an nightime atm robbery since money can be insured and its not worth it risk your life and the worst crime Spidey stops is a bike robber.
 
gyrobot said:
Well times have changed, Manhattan is no longer affordable to guys like Spidey, the response to robberies is not a broad daylight robbery as security laughably fail to stop the villains with tech but an nightime atm robbery since money can be insured and its not worth it risk your life and the worst crime Spidey stops is a bike robber.
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True, I suppose. It's just that it creates this rather constricted range of threats within the films.

I actually wish we'd got a proper cackling megalomaniac somewhere in the mix. Guess it wasn't grounded enough.
 
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The whole timetravel idea in Endgame, there are few things I dislike more in fiction than time travel, badly executed to beat, and here we got that as well as it being a central element of the story. It made for quite a disappointing end in the series and more or less killed my interest in the franchise.

1812 said:
I just think that there's too much Tony. Tony does this, Tony did that, Tony, Tony, Tony, BLOODY TONY. Sure, Robert Downey Jr is tremendous in the role, and Iron Man is a classic character, and yes, they tried for a Justice League style power trio (Cap, Stark, Thor), but... everything always seems to revolve back to Tony, every film, every arc, seems to have Tony sucking up the limelight somewhere in the script, the Spider Man films being the worst offenders in this regard. Apparently, Tony's in the Black Widow movie. Of course he is :rolleyes:.
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I have to be honest here, I doubt I would have come to like/love the MCU without Tony Stark and his presence being what it is. He is what drew me to the movies and kept me invested in its events and world more than anything else.
 
In my mind, they milked Tony too hard but also stopped telling a real story with him for a long time. He was in this weird space where he was one of the most important characters, but not really driving the story enough or really changing, even though major changes in his life were happening offscreen.
 
Suzu said:
The thing is, if you think about it, nobody in the MCU actually bothers with more mundane crimes. The audience never sees Iron Man stop by and help during a car chase or Captain America prevent somebody from getting mugged. Black Window is a super spy, and so is Hawkeye, so both of them practically live in a separate world together, and that's not even mentioning Thor or Captain Marvel.

There are Netflix shows, I suppose, except those are gone now. Thus, when the subject of more "blue collar" crimes, there's only Spider-Man, who was set up by the end of his first movie to aspire to be one such "friendly neighborhood" hero. Even then, his second movie and his appearance in Infinity War and Endgame backtracks on this progression to tie him down to something far less "friendly neighborhood."
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Part of it is an issue of scale. For the longest time the Silver Age Marvel comics could get away with the rationale that the weirdness in this universe was so widespread that a guy like Spidey, who mostly foils bank robberies by goons in tights and the occasional mad scientist, would escape notice, especially when there was a slew of other street-level heroes for him to get lost in. Compared to the stuff the Fantastic Four, X-Men, or Avengers are dealing with on a day-to-day basis, he's small fry. After enough crossover stories where Pete started making friends with the Richards or Stark that rationale began to break down and various dumb excuses for why Reed didn't just give him a job had to be invented, but until that point it was a sensible state of affairs.

The MCU, however, simply never reached that point. It never had so many street-level heroes that Spider-Man wasn't that remarkable. It skipped directly from "Spider-Man exists" to "Spider-Man has attracted the attention of the big boys club."

Part of it might also have something to do with the fact that street-level heroes always have a bit of a fascist undercurrent to them. It's more pronounced in guys like The Punisher, Moon Knight, or even Daredevil, but it exists in Spider-Man too: we don't need a superpowered strongman to beat the shit out of low level criminals. Street crime just isn't that common anymore, and besides there are far worse criminals higher up the food chain. A preoccupation with policing urban areas through vigilante justice has connotations. So quickly graduating Spidey away from that sort of thing might also have been seen as a branding/PR move on Marvel's part.
 
Scrap it entirely. The basic problems of the MCU are structural ones that come from wanting it to be a "cinematic universe" with a consistent tone. Weightless, floaty action? Shooting film like it's TV? The bizarre ethereality of the stakes? The nonsensical gabble of the ideological postures? All are built around the diabolical urge to keep things consistent.

This isn't how comics work even today, and it isn't how they worked in the past. There was no attempt to try and trick people into believing that a Steranko Doctor Strange story and a John Romita Spider-Man story and a Jack Kirby Captain America story were all part of the same overarching story.

I think Captain Marvel suffered most from this. The moment where Carol Danvers reaches heaven through violence, draws upon the goddesshead she's tapping into fully for the first time, should have been played for something. Ecstatic joy? Triumph? Terror? Raw, religious awe?

What we get is a tawdry joke where she blasts her former boss away.
 
On Malekith, I noticed how both Thanos and Malekith used a lot of Dark Hole Tech (The ship designs had that techno organic feel to it with Black Hole engines and all), having Thanos view Malekith like a brother and Malekith's motivation for retrieving the Aether was not just for the Convergence but also an easy way for Thanos to access the other Stones without trouble and in turn Malekith rules over the universe in Thano's stead after he performs the Decimation.
 
Minor one: either Falcon or Bucky should not have been dusted. Something to make either of them getting the shield feel earned.
 
I think they should have killed off Hawkeye during Age of Ultron instead of Quicksilver. Hawkeye had nothing to do for basically the rest of the MCU, and his few appearances (endgame I'm looking at you) were a serious drag.
With Quicksilver you have a ready-made dynamic between him and Wanda that you can exploit (for example in civil war a subplot between them choosing different sides would be nice)

Also for Age of Ultron I really want to see what Whedon would have done without studio interference, and failing that I also like NandoVmovies' rewrite (in case you haven't seen it, basically Ultron can't kill, so he has to do all his heists & stuff through proxies, ends up in Vision to break this, Avengers have to team up against one guy with Superman-esque powers, not end of the world style threat)

If it was me I would have put a Black Widow movie before Infinity War and in it reference the current situation of Cap's team so we know their situation going into the finale.

Hmm probably also let Patty Jenkins do what she wanted to do with Thor 2 (apparently some sort of Romeo & Juliet, star-crossed lovers fare between Thor & Jane), it probably would've been better that what we ended up getting.
 
bluntblade said:
Minor one: either Falcon or Bucky should not have been dusted. Something to make either of them getting the shield feel earned.
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That is what Falcon and Winter Soldier is going to address, Sam being on probation because he didn't do the time and there are still racist right wing politicians in the senate who thinks Sam being the next Cap is a mistake and plants US Agent, Zemo's playing a part meaning he would be likely resentful for not dying during the Snap and a bunch of angry young Sokovian men likely left behind in their teenage years as orphans and single parent families makes for prime recruiting material for Zemo's new purpose in life.

Couple with current racial tensions and you got a topical Disney+ series.
 
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gyrobot said:
That is what Falcon and Winter Soldier is going to address, Sam being on probation because he didn't do the time and there are still racist right wing politicians in the senate who thinks Sam being the next Cap is a mistake and plants US Agent, Zemo's playing a part meaning he would be likely resentful for not dying during the Snap and a bunch of angry young Sokovian men likely left behind in their teenage years as orphans and single parent families makes for prime recruiting material for Zemo's new purpose in life.

Couple with current racial tensions and you got a topical Disney+ series.
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Maybe. It's just that I'm reeeeeally tired of Marvel always addressing something two years after the story which should've handled it.

But my issue is still that Cap hasn't had the time with Sam or Bucky to justify passing the torch in the way I wish he had. There's no chance to make that particular deficit up now.
 
Sandy River DL said:
I have zero idea why Thanos was changed from an omnicidal monster seeking to impress Death, to some sort of cosmic eco-terrorist. Anyone know where that came from?
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Pragmatically they probably didn't want to have to introduce and develop an entirely new character (death) as well as the fact that the motivation just isn't compelling or interesting to mainstream audiences. I know for sure that I like Thanos's MCU motivation far more than his comic one.
 
I find Thanos' eco-thing quite superficial to be honest. Movies With Mikey did make the point that with lots of worlds, it would just delay his projected Armageddon by a couple of generations (whilst also likely dooming any sentient species which were already endangered).

And there are things you could tie his infatuation with Death to. Men doing terrible things in the name of earning/purchasing love is one suggestion I've seen in a few places - and yeah, it'd mean giving Thanos a backstory beyond thirty seconds and a fuller psychology (compare against Killmonger, whose motivations we understand, not just his ideology).
 
The basic problem is that they made like 20 movies. You generally can't make a movie series that long and expect things to stay fresh.
 
Well, what do we want out of it?

I think a lot of why I feel comfortable walking away after Endgame is it felt like a stopping point.

Big threat is defeated, a hero' died, another left the stage and passed on the mantle. As much as anything can change in the MCU things kind of did, if even for a moment.

If we want more self contained stories they could do that, or more experimental or what have you but the one thing they had so much difficulty was stacking threat on top of threat and having them defused between movies.

The one thing I can point to for sure is that after Avengers there just isn't any connection to civilians or a more grounded set outside of the heroes themselves.

In hindsight having Cap break off to direct evacuations and letting people react to that was so fucking humanizing. I can't recall any times past that when it felt like they lived in a world with actual people beyond the named cast.
 
bluntblade said:
I find Thanos' eco-thing quite superficial to be honest. Movies With Mikey did make the point that with lots of worlds, it would just delay his projected Armageddon by a couple of generations (whilst also likely dooming any sentient species which were already endangered).

And there are things you could tie his infatuation with Death to. Men doing terrible things in the name of earning/purchasing love is one suggestion I've seen in a few places - and yeah, it'd mean giving Thanos a backstory beyond thirty seconds and a fuller psychology (compare against Killmonger, whose motivations we understand, not just his ideology).
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It's not even an eco thing really. Thanos is a madboy "I'll show them I was right" is his motivation. He argued for population control on his world, was ignored and the world died, so now he's out to prove he was right back then.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
It's not even an eco thing really. Thanos is a madboy "I'll show them I was right" is his motivation. He argued for population control on his world, was ignored and the world died, so now he's out to prove he was right back then.
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If they milked his pettiness properly I'd buy that. But I've seen a lot of Brolin and the filmmakers talking up Thanos' compassion so I'm dubious.
 
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