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Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)

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afreaknamedpete said:
You cannot fathom what I fight for, and what I am willing to do. [Shoot Lugh]
>Kuro's internal priority is to protect the Real World.
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This statement is just false on so many levels though (Lugh is far more experienced than Hiyori in such matters, and her motives are plainly comprehensible with the correct context, context that Lugh might already have).

afreaknamedpete said:
>Lugh is asking you, more or less, if you would be willing to kill and under what context.
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Switching tacks, what do you think Hiyori the character wants and prioritizes in the long term? Might be easier to approach this vote from this angle and all.

I think Hiyori wants to preserve the Real World both because it was and always will be real (and wants to continue living there after facing what she did in the SEED), but also because she thinks the alternatives are hot garbage for anyone not the Chosen.
To that end, if the philosophical and practical issues can be resolved she might be persuaded otherwise (but fat chance of that happening, too many issues for that to be feasible).

I think that Hiyori is no longer willing to preserve her life at the expense of innocent lives, but is willing to kill (not-innocents) if there are no alternatives (expedience is not one of the acceptable reasons why), if not doing so would result in significant/permanent harm to others (the SEED may or may not count, depending) or cost her her life (Hiyori is not Shiro, and I would prefer to keep it that way).

Lastly, I'm not sure how much Hiyori cares about truth beyond it being what she needs to make responsible/appropriate decisions? She certainly does not particularly care for revealing truth to others as a matter of principle, unlike Argo.

Edit:
veekie said:
It feels like the Seed for our own Heaven
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Makes sense, but wow do we need to choke that off ASAP if true - that would be a pretty terrible Rule to impose on the rest of the world?
 
[X] Write-In [I'll do anything to prevent another Sword Art Online] (Tank the Bullet with Ash Nazg)
-[X] So that not everyone needs to be strong (by Kayaba's standards, or by GGO's, or by hour's, or by mine, or whatever half-baked rule that a Chosen can come up with)

How does this sound? Feel like this is also Blank's problem with the existing world, and it's main feature of Diversity if that makes sense?
 
Potato12345 said:
[X] Write-In [I'll do anything to prevent another Sword Art Online] (Tank the Bullet with Ash Nazg)
-[X] So that not everyone needs to be strong (by Kayaba's standards, or by GGO's, or by hour's, or by mine, or whatever half-baked rule that a Chosen can come up with)

How does this sound? Feel like this is also Blank's problem with the existing world, and it's main feature of Diversity if that makes sense?
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This doesn't answer the prompt really, need to be more detailed on under what context we kill. Cool idea though. There's potential here.

afreaknamedpete said:
[ ] Write-In [FREE]
>Lugh is asking you, more or less, if you would be willing to kill and under what context.
>You can also write a dramatic resolution to the mexican standoff!
>The QM will create a relevant skill.
>Kuro has previously chosen to prioritize the lives of others over the life of herself during a prior vote. If your write-in contradicts this, you may find yourself in conflict with your Shadow.
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[X] You cannot fathom what I fight for, and what I am willing to do. [Shoot Lugh]

While the line is Cringe, I do think Kuro's priority here is to protect the Real World. VMMO's and SEEDS aren't real, and according to our patron will eventually destroy the Real World by splitting off and fracturing it. And their creation inherently leads to another SAO or Athleheim - a situation where there is a Strong and a Weak, and the Weak can do nothing against the Strong.

Killing is terrible. But it's not unfathomable. In all cases it's better to try and resolve problems outside the Game, to punt people into the hands of the government and the Real World. But it's not the worse possible fate.
 
@afreaknamedpete so to clarify, will this replace our current iteration of Real Deal, or add another Real Deal Trait?

Regardless:

[X] Write-in: [I'm surprised you haven't figured this out!] (out yourself as an SAO Survivor before attacking with Starfall Crater)
-Kuro's main priority is to protect the Real World while also preventing anyone from going through the same trauma she experienced in SAO.
-Kuro is reluctant to kill, and will only do so if circumstances force her to do so. She is otherwise willing to do whatever it takes to protect the Real World and help others along the way.

I hope this write-in isn't too similar to any of the existing options, or is a cop-out on the front of intent to kill.
 
[x][Write-In: To never let only one man's dreams dictate the world's beat ever again...and this is not yet the day I shall fail to uphold that promise [Hoister Black Star and walk away]
- Kuro's main priority is to never let another Kayaba rise to the top, to never let any people be a puppet in a string if she has anything to say about it.
- Kuro will be more openly adverse about playing coy to someone's else's whims and, if pushed far enough, may be willing to take DRASTIC measures.

Decided to try and give my own spin into this
 
theguynamedwafer said:
@afreaknamedpete so to clarify, will this replace our current iteration of Real Deal, or add another Real Deal Trait?

Regardless:

[X] Write-in: [I'm surprised you haven't figured this out!] (out yourself as an SAO Survivor before attacking with Starfall Crater)
-Kuro's main priority is to protect the Real World while also preventing anyone from going through the same trauma she experienced in SAO.
-Kuro is reluctant to kill, and will only do so if circumstances force her to do so. She is otherwise willing to do whatever it takes to protect the Real World and help others along the way.

I hope this write-in isn't too similar to any of the existing options, or is a cop-out on the front of intent to kill.
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Remind me what starfall crater is? And anyways, we're holding the black star atm. Can we even change a gun without Lugh shooting us?
 
[ ] I want the truth. That is the only way to act with intent. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]

Leaning this way, just because of the "letting masterminds escape" part. Doesn't really feel like she ever cared that much about "truth". Admittedly, I also just like that power up the best.

Lugh has a point in calling Hiyori out. She started out as someone willing to kill innocents to survive - which is not at all unusual, there's a reason self-defense or being under duress can be used as a defense in court. But now she's pretty… shaky on what her own morals are like. Granted, as a teenager it's normally fine to still be figuring herself out, but she doesn't have that luxury in her situation.

She struggled with her guilt and ultimately resolved to change, but she never really figured out what that looks like. She may default to "killing is bad", but even modern society recognizes that sometimes it isn't, hell, Japan has a death penalty even. Hiyori even understood that when she learned about Shino's trauma and didn't treat her as a murderer, but there's definitely some lingering trauma from the Laughing Coffin that makes Hiyori avoid the topic entirely.

I think she needs to accept giving her all, up to and including lethal force, against people like Kayaba, Death Gun and so on because sometimes villains are so powerful, if you knowingly hold back and then they get away you become responsible for letting them harm others.

It sometimes feels like unless she sorts herself out, Hiyori is at risk of becoming the memetic Batman who's failing to actually stop anyone because he's too busy massaging his own conscience (and trauma).
 
afreaknamedpete said:
>Lugh intends to teach you another 'lesson'!
>You have gained the new MAJOR ACTION: [Intent//[PLAN]. This allows you to WRITE-IN a major action.
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No fucking shot. That's crazy.

I'll let the other voters do some deciding before we lock in our Real Deal. (If I had a nickel for every time i heard that word in this arc, I'd be paying off my student loans already.)

Edit: the line is cringe but the character isn't!
[X] You cannot fathom what I fight for, and what I am willing to do. [Shoot Lugh]

Edit edit: this one's also cool.
[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
 
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[X] You cannot fathom what I fight for, and what I am willing to do. [Shoot Lugh]

To no one's surprise, I'm voting for this. It's everything I've wanted to take Hiyori's character. I reject Isekai protagonists and I reject their bland, uncreative worlds where 99.9 % percent of them need stat screens to function.

And ultimately, I'm fine with being willing to use lethal force if it comes down to it. We're not the light-light-light-grey morality Phantom Thieves. We're an old school Persona 2 protagonist in SAO, we don't have the luxuries the modern Persona heroes benefit from and if it's to save our friends or fight to live in the heat of the moment I'm willing to live with the consequences.

On top of that we now know that Fusion was a poisoned gift from PHILEMON. It's best to protect ourselves from how it would influence us.

And as always I'm not a fan of weasel options that try to get everything in one shot.
 
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Well, fuck me! Definitely wasn't expecting such a turning-point in the quest at the start of this update. Suppose it makes sense that the one GGO player who's actually killed more people offline, and knows it only proves who's left rather than who's right, has the clearest vision of the <<Real Deal>>.

[X] I want the truth. That is the only way to act with intent. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]

Partly, this feels the truest to Hiyori's character, or at least the aspect I find the most interesting about her. Partly, this feels like the option that allows us to balance ETTELIA and SEED--and I don't think either of them have anyone's best interests at heart.

EDIT:
[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
Perfectly serviceable option as well, and one that could also win.
 
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Okay, a tentative attempt to reconcile 2 and 3 (coming off as a crazy anarchist is a feature, probably):

[X] I want the Death Game to end. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED to force their idea of strength on others. If they, or SEED itself, have to die, so be it.

There's only one real world. Games should stay just games, or else it's PUNISHMENT TIME. Lelouch-esque posing with a spread palm in front of face while dying of cringe inside
 
Rayv said:
[X] I want the Death Game to end. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED to force their idea of strength on others. If they, or SEED itself, have to die, so be it.
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This is probably the option I most agree with thus far in spirit, but something about the wording bothers me. Maybe it's because Death Games aren't our only major seed-related obstacles? It feels too focused on the now for such a big decision, even if it mainly refers to Kuro.

[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse] [Shoot Lugh's gun out of his hand]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED or other methods to force others into serving their ideals and goals.
>Kuro will prioritize removing and foiling villains and masterminds' means of control and goals, but will be reluctant to allow them to escape if their threat is not sufficiently neutralized.

How does that sound? Hiyori's gone for her fair share of cruel mercy, and has strong feelings about being made a tool of others, so an option that has her reject playing Lugh's game while still acknowledging that she will kill if necessary seemed like the best fit to me.
 
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Frozen Flame said:
Maybe it's because Death Games aren't our only major seed-related obstacles?
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Fair point, I'm using "Death Game" as a shorthand for every time a SEED game tries something that encroaches on reality, be it SAO death-in-real-life stuff, ALO brainwashing or Death Gun shit in GGO. I would say that - in some ways - for Hiyori, SAO still hasn't ended and this current crisis is just more of the same.
War, war never changes.

I would note that Lugh is specifically asking what would it take for Hiyori to kill someone, and your write-in doesn't seem to answer that. I think our language needs to be more direct than than "foiling" or "stopping" people.

Edit: Forgot to say I'm totally willing to amend my vote, this is just the initial idea for me.
 
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Rayv said:
Fair point, I'm using "Death Game" as a shorthand for every time a SEED game tries something that encroaches on reality, be it SAO death-in-real-life stuff, ALO brainwashing or Death Gun shit in GGO. I would say that - in some ways - for Hiyori, SAO still hasn't ended and this current crisis is just more of the same.
War, war never changes.

I would note that Lugh is specifically asking what would it take for Hiyori to kill someone, and your write-in doesn't seem to answer that. I think our language needs to be more direct than than "foiling" or "stopping" people.
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I used the same wording as the original examples to try and fit the pattern, but good to know it came off that way to you.

When I say "but will be reluctant to allow them to escape if their threat is not sufficiently neutralized," I'm saying that Hiyori will be willing to kill them if she can't bring them down by destroying their plans and tools. If that isn't enough of an option to keep them from picking up where they left off and she's faced with the choice between letting them go and killing them, she'd be more inclined toward killing them. She's still answering the question, just in a way that makes it clear that she considers actually ending people something only to be done when absolutely necessary.

Both for moral reasons and because, as seen with Death Gun, sometimes killing them is just playing their game.

EDIT: I'm willing to rephrase things myself if anyone has a better way of saying it.
 
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Frozen Flame said:
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This phrasing sounds like putting off the decision through using vague terms (how unwilling, exactly, is "reluctant"? Who decides when the threat is sufficiently neutralized, and how?). It seems like, when push comes to shove, Hiyori will keep finding reasons it's not absolutely necessary. We're trying to convince Lugh of our determination, after all.

I'm also wary of committing to sort of being an Ally of Justice everywhere, at all times, which is why I limited the wording. Our cryptosis acquaintance uses GGO (a SEED game) to basically con people. She's a villain in a sense, but I wouldn't want to spend time on fighting her or any number of similarly less than crucial issues when we have world-ending problems to focus on. Hiyori herself forced others (ALO players) into serving her goals (saving the world, vengeance against Sugo, etc.). Just in general reality is full of unjust systems that let the strong (according to those systems) abuse the weak, so I feel opposing one thing (SEED trying to become reality for the players) is best. I could accept something more focused, like this:

[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED to force others into risking their lives for their own ideals or goals.
>Kuro will prioritize removing villains and masterminds' means of control and opposing their goals, even if killing them is the only way to stop them before they hurt more people.

(Shooting his gun out of his hand is something I absolutely don't believe she's capable of, and doing these sorts of tricks with a lethal weapon is effectively saying "I'm willing to risk your death to look cool." Tanking his attack already disarms him.)
 
Rayv said:
This phrasing sounds like putting off the decision through using vague terms (how unwilling, exactly, is "reluctant"? Who decides when the threat is sufficiently neutralized, and how?). It seems like, when push comes to shove, Hiyori will keep finding reasons it's not absolutely necessary. We're trying to convince Lugh of our determination, after all.

I'm also wary of committing to sort of being an Ally of Justice everywhere, at all times, which is why I limited the wording. Our cryptosis acquaintance uses GGO (a SEED game) to basically con people. She's a villain in a sense, but I wouldn't want to spend time on fighting her or any number of similarly less than crucial issues when we have world-ending problems to focus on. Hiyori herself forced others (ALO players) into serving her goals (saving the world, vengeance against Sugo, etc.). Just in general reality is full of unjust systems that let the strong (according to those systems) abuse the weak, so I feel opposing one thing (SEED trying to become reality for the players) is best. I could accept something more focused, like this:

[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED to force others into risking their lives for their own ideals or goals.
>Kuro will prioritize removing villains and masterminds' means of control and opposing their goals, even if killing them is the only way to stop them before they hurt more people.

(Shooting his gun out of his hand is something I absolutely don't believe she's capable of, and doing these sorts of tricks with a lethal weapon is effectively saying "I'm willing to risk your death to look cool." Tanking his attack already disarms him.)
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I was using reluctant in the same way that the original prompts did, in that choosing not to go for lethal options when Hiyori can't bring an enemy down by stripping them of their power like she did Sugou, or, conversely, choosing to go straight for the kill when such options are available would be out of character and risk consequences with her shadow.

I can see your concerns on that front, so I don't mind dropping the IRL elements too much, even if I think there's a bit of difference between the likes of a crypto-scammer and the assorted cult leaders and masterminds who have to be stopped. Though rather than an Ally of Justice, I more see it as Hiyori having a hatred of such tactics after Laughing Coffin. VR played a big role there, but their methods were all too real and they're far from our only point of concern to use RL options (Argo, Kikouka, etc). Better to mind all the strings and not just the virtual ones.

Less to look cool and more to make the point that sitting there and taking it and shooting Lugh aren't our only choices. Just tanking his attack still leaves him with a working gun, even if the Null means it won't effect Kuro, and doesn't particularly show the will to kill. Remove his means of violence/power, and yes I know Lugh is a living weapon and not much inconvenienced, the point is symbolic, first and then give the statement/ultimatum. With the high Agi ASH NAZG offers, I could see her pulling it off, especially if tanking the shot throws him off. That said, if dropping it is for the best then I'm willing to do so.

EDIT: On reflection, shooting back doesn't fit the narrative the choice goes for as well as I thought. Yeah, I'll give up on that part.

[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]
>Kuro's priority is stopping those who use the SEED to force others into risking their lives for their own ideals or goals.
>Kuro will prioritize removing villains and masterminds' means of control and opposing their goals, even if killing them is the only way to stop them before they hurt more people.
 
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[X] I want people to stop playing games with everyone's lives. [Activate ASH NAZG and tank Lugh's Bullet with Null:Curse]

I am strongly opposed to the "Shoot Lugh" option - I've always hated that direction for Hiyori's character. I think this write-in is more fitting. Kayaba, OBERON, Death Gun, even Philemon and ETTEILLA in a sense - they're all playing with people's lives and Hiyori has the experience from SAO of having been a "piece" and so opposes anyone trying to turn the world into their personal gameboard.

There remains a philosophical issue here - one that Blank has already brought up - that in a sense the real world already is that just with very hazy rules that don't apply equally. But not only does it mean Hiyori's beliefs can be challenged/explored more in that plot I've never found too much of a fault in Hiyori coming to conclusions that aren't (pun not intended) bulletproof. She's a teenager! Hell, even if she weren't that's the kind of problem humanity has been unsuccessfully grappling with forever. Also could add some tension with Kikuoka and ETTEILLA to spice things up since they're both absolutely doing that LOL.

Of the pre-written options I think I'd probably be the lone one going for "Never Again" but I can see where I've lost so really I'm just full tactical voting now.
 
nothingtoseehere said:
While the line is Cringe, I do think Kuro's priority here is to protect the Real World.
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The goal is to maximize the edgelordiness of the line.

theguynamedwafer said:
@afreaknamedpete so to clarify, will this replace our current iteration of Real Deal, or add another Real Deal Trait?
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Just another buff, I have it so that every Lugh and Itami scene teaches Hiyori, and I like this better than just another static gun buff.

MrKermie said:
Edit: the line is cringe but the character isn't!
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MAXIMUM EDGE PUNISH!
 
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