Peace on Earth [PMMM]

Very pretty, indeed. I'm not sure what to say, and I'm not in the business of describing feelings, so I'm truly at a loss for words. Suffice it to say my eyes are still kinda wet. My main objection with this short story is what I perceive as a heavy prescence of Christianity. I am of a similar mind to Homura, and that scene with the shopkeeper annoyed me a little. But well, it was a Christmas story, it's probably my fault for not overlooking it.

The highlights for me was Kyouko's reaction to finding out the Kanames were Madoka's family, and all the scenes after as she watched Madoka interact with her family. As it played in my mind, as she slowly put together the tragedy she was witnessing... it was beatiful.
 
Very pretty, indeed. I'm not sure what to say, and I'm not in the business of describing feelings, so I'm truly at a loss for words. Suffice it to say my eyes are still kinda wet. My main objection with this short story is what I perceive as a heavy prescence of Christianity. I am of a similar mind to Homura, and that scene with the shopkeeper annoyed me a little. But well, it was a Christmas story, it's probably my fault for not overlooking it.

The highlights for me was Kyouko's reaction to finding out the Kanames were Madoka's family, and all the scenes after as she watched Madoka interact with her family. As it played in my mind, as she slowly put together the tragedy she was witnessing... it was beatiful.
You're annoyed at the relatively subtle, non adversarial prescence of christianity in a story? That sounds more like you have an issue than the story has an issue.

Most at people can read stories that don't line up with their personal views without telling the need express their irritation at the ideology they don't follow.
 
Do note I said I had problem with what I perceive. And then proceeded to explain my mindset. So yes, it's me the one with an issue, not the story. I thought that was pretty clear.

And while I wouldn't precisely call it irritation, I thought I was polite enough about it. I apologize if I wasn't, it wasn't my intention.
 
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Very pretty, indeed. I'm not sure what to say, and I'm not in the business of describing feelings, so I'm truly at a loss for words. Suffice it to say my eyes are still kinda wet. My main objection with this short story is what I perceive as a heavy prescence of Christianity. I am of a similar mind to Homura, and that scene with the shopkeeper annoyed me a little. But well, it was a Christmas story, it's probably my fault for not overlooking it.

The highlights for me was Kyouko's reaction to finding out the Kanames were Madoka's family, and all the scenes after as she watched Madoka interact with her family. As it played in my mind, as she slowly put together the tragedy she was witnessing... it was beatiful.

Thank you so much for your comments! Your feedback is tremendously helpful.

I was actually surprised at how Kyouko inserted herself into the story. It wasn't exactly planned that way, but she just kept butting in ;) I think it turned out better for that, though.

Ah... religion. That was exactly the thing that I was most uncertain about when I wrote this story - how or how not to treat or include religion. I am truly sorry if it detracted from your enjoyment.

If you'll bear with a brief digression, I'll explain a bit. I'd welcome your thoughts on the matter.

On the one hand - faith is a natural part of human beings, whether that religion is Christianity or Hinduism or Secularism or something else. Moreover, for a writer, especially one creating a constructed universe, his or her faith will inform and direct his writing. A Gnostic will create a universe based on gnostic principles, a stoic on stoic principles, a nihilist on nihilist, humanist on humanist, and so on and so forth. And, of course, a Christian person will base his world on Christian foundations. All these writers will do so because they are informed by their faiths or philosophies as to how the world actually works.

There are, of course, good ways and bad ways to do this. If I want to include faith in my writing, I want to be a Tolkien, not a Jack Chick. The point of the story should not be propaganda.

On the other hand, in modern society, it's generally considered gauche to openly speak about or practice one's faith, which is generally considered to be a private matter. But we see stories and sf/fantasy worlds based on panthesitic, or atheistic, or agnostic principles all the time. And, as a reader, I can set aside my own distaste for what I see as a flawed or incomplete philosophy of life and just enjoy the story. So, with that, as long as I don't make the story propaganda, I feel like I should and can ask for the same courtesy from my readers: Even if you don't believe what I believe, respect that I honestly believe it, and please enjoy my stories :)

On the third hand, (boy, I'm running out of hands here),
Jesus said:
For he that shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him the Son of man shall be ashamed, when he shall come in his majesty, and that of his Father, and of the holy angels.
So my Lord has told me this in particular, which kind of supersedes all the other pondering I did earlier. Boy do I feel silly :p

So that's why I feel free to write stories that include my Catholic faith. For me, and I think for many committed Christians, one of the characters in all of our stories has to be God, moving among the many players in mysterious ways, for all of their benefit. I pray I have portrayed Him and His agents well. Again, I'm sorry if it caused your enjoyment to suffer, and doubly sorry if your distaste came from my actions or the actions of my Church and my fellow Christians.

You're annoyed at the relatively subtle, non adversarial prescence of christianity in a story?

Thanks so much for your defense on my behalf, Chloe! I appreciate it. And yes, Knitty, you were perfectly polite :D
 
Do note I said I had problem with what I perceive. And then proceeded to explain my mindset. So yes, it's me the one with an issue, not the story. I thought that was pretty clear.

And while I wouldn't precisely call it irritation, I thought I was polite enough about it. I apologize if I wasn't, it wasn't my intention.
You not liking jebus in your fanfic is of course, entirely your business. But when you post that dislike publicly, it's kinda going to be seen as a criticism, because well, why else express that dislike to other people?

I don't mean to criticize you, but I did want to point out that that's the inherent metamessage that goes with. Since it's not what you meant, I will offer apologies for any inadvertent offense I may have caused.
 
On the one hand - faith is a natural part of human beings,
I agree. My personal philosophy sustains that humans can't not believe in anything, so like it or not in something you have to believe. It's just that my personal set of beliefs disagrees with some of the core tenets of Christianity. And I also agree that just as children are created with their parents genetic material, stories are made with their creators philosophical beliefs. And that's, of course, not a problem at all.

In fact, I rather enjoyed some of the elements quoted and referred to. They gave the story a nice flavour, a sense of significance and that, after all, there's something to learn. But the thing is in that scene with the shopkeeper, they argue. Given that, as I said, I'm of a similar mind to your Homura, it was too easy for me to liken my situation to hers. Too easy to imagine myself as the one having that argument. And too easy to think it could have been me the one to say the very same words Homura said. So, naturally, I did all of that. Perhaps not the smartest choice, but that's what readers tend to do when reading stories featuring characters they like.

So, I took sides, empathized with Homura's feelings, and therefore was annoyed. That's pretty much it.

And by the way, this phrase: "And hospitality do not forget; for by this some, being not aware of it, have entertained angels." Is there a source for this, or is it something you made up? I quite like it, and I'm adding it to my quotes.txt file.
 
And by the way, this phrase: "And hospitality do not forget; for by this some, being not aware of it, have entertained angels." Is there a source for this, or is it something you made up? I quite like it, and I'm adding it to my quotes.txt file.
Wasn't the original about entertaining gods unaware, from Greek mythology?
 
I agree. My personal philosophy sustains that humans can't not believe in anything, so like it or not in something you have to believe. It's just that my personal set of beliefs disagrees with some of the core tenets of Christianity. And I also agree that just as children are created with their parents genetic material, stories are made with their creators philosophical beliefs. And that's, of course, not a problem at all.

In fact, I rather enjoyed some of the elements quoted and referred to. They gave the story a nice flavour, a sense of significance and that, after all, there's something to learn. But the thing is in that scene with the shopkeeper, they argue. Given that, as I said, I'm of a similar mind to your Homura, it was too easy for me to liken my situation to hers. Too easy to imagine myself as the one having that argument. And too easy to think it could have been me the one to say the very same words Homura said. So, naturally, I did all of that. Perhaps not the smartest choice, but that's what readers tend to do when reading stories featuring characters they like.

So, I took sides, empathized with Homura's feelings, and therefore was annoyed. That's pretty much it.

And by the way, this phrase: "And hospitality do not forget; for by this some, being not aware of it, have entertained angels." Is there a source for this, or is it something you made up? I quite like it, and I'm adding it to my quotes.txt file.
Wasn't the original about entertaining gods unaware, from Greek mythology?
Yes, that was a greek saying; but that particular quote is from the Douay-Rheims, Hebrews 13:2 :)

I'm glad you said all that, Knitty! I hope I treated Homura's (and your) beliefs respectfully and fairly. I wanted to let Homura get the last word in, but... that just wasn't going to happen, especially given exactly who she was arguing with. 'Von Himmelsritter' indeed :p
 
You're annoyed at the relatively subtle, non adversarial prescence of christianity in a story? That sounds more like you have an issue than the story has an issue.

Most at people can read stories that don't line up with their personal views without telling the need express their irritation at the ideology they don't follow.

I feel the need to challenge you here, on two points.

1) People do complain about stories that contain ideologies they disagree with. They do it all the time. For instance, this book is widely reviled for the Nazi ideology it contains. Are you saying that criticism of The Turner Diaries for promoting racist rebellion and ethnic cleansing is a problem with the critics, rather than the book? (I highly doubt it.)

I don't think anybody is actually objecting to Christian ideology in the story, however, as the moral backbone of Christianity is pretty solid (as distinct from the doctrine of specific Christian churches, which have a tendency to be more problematic). What Kintty was objecting to, and what you appear to be defending, is the presence of trappings of Christian mythology. Which leads me to my next issue, the more relevant one.

2) You are missing the difference between an original and a derivative work. The key difference is that an original work forms a new schema in the reader's mind, while a derivative work adds to an existing schema. When I read a heavily Christian piece of original fiction, I'm engaging in secondary belief through the lens of that work's universe (which potentially is somewhat merged with the general lens of Christian mythology). For a non-Christian example, I read this book and engaged in secondary belief through the lens of that work's heavily Norse-influenced universe.

The problem comes when you introduce those themes in a derivative work whose original doesn't have them. My schema, and most people's schemas, of Madoka Magica do not include any trappings of Christian mythology. Thus, when we come to this story under the impression that it's a Madoka fanfic, and try to engage in secondary belief through the lens of the Magicaverse, it fails, creating dissonance. The lens may even feel tainted by the subconscious addition of this contradictory information. One can compare it to the "out of character" complaint when a fanfic's characters don't match their established selves - this is effectively an "out of cosmology" complaint. I'd say that it's a valid and objective criticism when applied to derivative works.

Fact of the matter is that this is effectively an unlabelled crossover, and crossovers have these sorts of problems. It's somewhat compounded by crossing over with an exceedingly vaguely defined and highly contentious universe.

(The obvious and usually-best real solution to world-breaking issues like this is to change all the names so your viewers aren't seeing it through the lens of other works, and then publish it as an original work. This is in fact what most authors do, consciously or subconsciously; after all, "there is nothing new under the sun". :p)
 
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I feel the need to challenge you here, on two points.

1) People do complain about stories that contain ideologies they disagree with. They do it all the time. For instance, this book is widely reviled for the Nazi ideology it contains. Are you saying that criticism of The Turner Diaries for promoting racist rebellion and ethnic cleansing is a problem with the critics, rather than the book? (I highly doubt it.)

I don't think anybody is actually objecting to Christian ideology in the story, however, as the moral backbone of Christianity is pretty solid (as distinct from the doctrine of specific Christian churches, which have a tendency to be more problematic). What Kintty was objecting to, and what you appear to be defending, is the presence of trappings of Christian mythology. Which leads me to my next issue, the more relevant one.

2) You are missing the difference between an original and a derivative work. The key difference is that an original work forms a new schema in the reader's mind, while a derivative work adds to an existing schema. When I read a heavily Christian piece of original fiction, I'm engaging in secondary belief through the lens of that work's universe (which potentially is somewhat merged with the general lens of Christian mythology). For a non-Christian example, I read this book and engaged in secondary belief through the lens of that work's heavily Norse-influenced universe.

The problem comes when you introduce those themes in a derivative work whose original doesn't have them. My schema, and most people's schemas, of Madoka Magica do not include any trappings of Christian mythology. Thus, when we come to this story under the impression that it's a Madoka fanfic, and try to engage in secondary belief through the lens of the Magicaverse, it fails, creating dissonance. The lens may even feel tainted by the subconscious addition of this contradictory information. One can compare it to the "out of character" complaint when a fanfic's characters don't match their established selves - this is effectively an "out of cosmology" complaint. I'd say that it's a valid and objective criticism when applied to derivative works.

Fact of the matter is that this is effectively an unlabelled crossover, and crossovers have these sorts of problems. It's somewhat compounded by crossing over with an exceedingly vaguely defined and highly contentious universe.

(The obvious and usually-best real solution to world-breaking issues like this is to change all the names so your viewers aren't seeing it through the lens of other works, and then publish it as an original work. This is in fact what most authors do, consciously or subconsciously; after all, "there is nothing new under the sun". :p)

Thanks so much for your commentary! It's exactly the sort of thing I was looking to hear to improve my writing.

I've been considering this particular post for several days, trying to compose an acceptable answer to your criticisms. I think it would be easier for me first to address the second before the first.

a) First point of your second criticism to address: the cosmology of Madoka Magica. Madoka is clearly, at least to me, a Buddhist story, perhaps even a Buddhist morality story, heavily influenced by "theme park Christianity". Madoka plays the role of Jesus, where Jesus is understood as a Bodhisattva in the conception of the creators.

I may disagree with My Little Po-Mo on a great many things, but his analysis of Madoka's themes is cogent and intriguing. In one of his articles, he goes into depth about how Homura and Kyouko's Christian ideals and upbringing lead them to suffering, because they fail to recognize the Buddhist cosmology of the story. If even someone as ideologically removed from my positions recognizes Christian themes in Madoka Magica, I hope I can be forgiven for seeing some as well :p

b) It may actually come as a surprise to you, but I didn't originally intend to include Christian "mythology" in the story. That was, in fact, an incidental. More on this in a moment.

c) Back to your first point. Please forgive the wall of text.

Including Christian ideology in this story was, to be blunt, inevitable.

This is NOT due to some desire on my part to get on a soapbox or propagandize or apologize or what have you.

As a matter of fact, I have binned more than eight stories in the past three years, stories that were technically well-written and actually quite fun to read and to write. When I reviewed my outlines for these stories, I realized that they were frankly self-indulgent. I had imposed my faith and sometimes even my religion on them, often unnaturally. In all cases the alterations or additions I had made to the cosmology of the universes they were set in was a central conceit, and offended against the spirit of the story.

So, I am determined not to let my joy in and duty to my God and my faith lead me into intemperate (NOT merely imprudent) and unjust action - which is also my duty to my God.

Rather, including Christian themes is inevitable, because, in the words of the inestimable C.S. Lewis, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." Trying to not include Christian philosophy in my story would be like trying to see while rejecting the light.

I have always seen Christian themes in Madoka Magica. To me, the story has always been one of Man, fallen and sinful, failing to resolve any of his problems, his continued efforts only making things worse; when suddenly, out of nowhere springs the eucatastrophe. God has sent a deliverer to his people; where there was only despair, now there is salvation.

Yet we all find that when we look back, we can see the preparations His grace has made. It is fitting, and we wonder how things could have ever occurred any other way. All the sacrifice and suffering has culminated in the Sacrifice, and joy waits beyond it. God moves; laudate dominum, omnes gentes.

...Please forgive the digression. I do hope that I was fair in my treatment of non-Christian, even Atheistic, points of view :D

d) However! I believe your fundamental objection was to "the trappings of Christian mythology", not the presence of Christian themes - although that might (or might not) be implied from your words. I felt it better to err on the safe side and present an explanation anyway ;)

I feel one-hundred-percent confident that the inclusion of "Christian mythology" in Peace on Earth was justified.

This is because the Christian elements were originally not intended to be in there!

If the Christianity is incidental to the story, then I feel confident I am not on my soapbox :)

Why did I include these elements? The central conceit of the story has always been that Madoka came back down to Earth for one day, Christmas day, to help Homura; as a sort of Christmas present. The problem came with "why" and "how". "Why" was Madoka able to do so for just this one day? "How" did she do it? When even Homura began asking these questions in the story, I was no longer comfortable with merely handwaving these concerns away. I judged it too likely to break the reader's suspension of disbelief.

So, how did Madoka get down to Earth? The obvious answer was that she hadn't done it alone. Someone had helped her. And the obvious answer to "Who" would help her was some other spirit with business on earth - one of the many gods or spirits or devils that populate classic mythology.

If I wanted to emulate the tone of the original Madoka Magica, I would have gone with a demon of some kind. Perhaps I could have inserted a pagan god of some sort. But a Buddha wouldn't have helped her (INCREASE rather than decrease her attachments to Mara? BUDDHIST BLASPHEMY!) And, if I had decided to go with one of Japan's pagan gods, I would have run into the same problem as I would have if I had included a demon. Demons and Gods are both arrogant and showy, and both are jerks. They merely differ on the intensity and depth of their arrogance and jerkishness :p

Including a pagan god or a demon would have 1, gone against the tone of the story I was trying to tell - one of hope and healing - and 2, raised a worldbuilding problem - if gods are so showy, why don't the Incubators notice and try to harvest them? It's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Adding an Angel like St. Raphael to the background solved the problem. Even if you merely consider the LORD to be the most successful of the pagan gods, just another "mere barbaric Lord of Hosts", you can't deny that he is a hell of a lot nicer, and less of a jerk, than pretty much every other pagan god out there. It fits with the tone of the story, God's about the only god that would do something out of the goodness of His heart, it doesn't open up another can of worms, and it gives a reason for "Why Christmas".

St. Raphael's there in the background, tying things up neatly; I don't even need to directly address his presence. Problem solved!

Except not really. Just like I kind of lost control over Kyouko as the story continued - she barged her way into three or four extra scenes that weren't supposed to be in the story in the beginning - I lost control over St. Raphael, too. OF COURSE he was going to start meddling; he just had to poke his nose into the middle of his own plot, make sure things were going well, say a few words to Kyouko and Homura to get them straightened out a bit more. (Dr. Heavens-knight? Who does he think he's fooling?) :p

I probably shouldn't be surprised. If Sakura Kyouko, who's not even a real person - in our dimension at least, possibly if anywhere - can hijack the story, why shouldn't St. Raphael be able to, when he is a real person?

(...Dear St. Raphael the Archangel, please don't be offended, and please pray to God to bless my story with many more reviews, if it be His will. Also a few words to other people's guardian angels wouldn't be amiss. Er, Amen.)

*cough*

Anyway, I hope I answered all of your concerns. I hope that my next few stories will be more to your liking, magic9mushroom - they should have little to no overt Christianity. I appreciate all the comments and reviews, and hope my work continues to be enjoyable.
 
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