I rather enjoy Coils of Destiny. They're only problematic right now because we're fielding Tyrion and Teclis and we're fighting Malekith. Literally the most Blood of Aenarion it's possible to involve in a war. Hence, complications and whatnot.

I expect that after this war ends, we won't have war-turns for a fair while, which will do much for the frustration fatigue they've been causing people.
 
Our QM is an Exalted player, tho.
So? Exalted is a fine game. But! It is not Warhammer.
The themes are different. The concepts are different. The power level is vastly different.* Thus the mechanics are different to reflect those aspects. Warhammer is a game of armies and nations. Exalted is a game of individual Persons Of Mass Awesome punching planets out of orbit.

*Imrix said not so long ago that Warhammer is a low-magic setting and this version is no different.
I challenge you to find a more high-magic setting than Exalted.
 
So? Exalted is a fine game. But! It is not Warhammer.
The themes are different. The concepts are different. The power level is vastly different.* Thus the mechanics are different to reflect those aspects. Warhammer is a game of armies and nations. Exalted is a game of individual Persons Of Mass Awesome punching planets out of orbit.

*Imrix said not so long ago that Warhammer is a low-magic setting and this version is no different.
I challenge you to find a more high-magic setting than Exalted.
..Tippyverse?
 
I challenge you to find a more high-magic setting than Exalted.
High end D&D. Exalted isn't really high-magic so much as it's just not D&D - which means it's not level 1 D&D, where you use your rusty fork to fight giant rats, and it's also not level 20 D&D, where you can create new planes of existence twice a week. (at least in some editions)
 
High end D&D. Exalted isn't really high-magic so much as it's just not D&D - which means it's not level 1 D&D, where you use your rusty fork to fight giant rats, and it's also not level 20 D&D, where you can create new planes of existence twice a week. (at least in some editions)
Actually you can make like 7~9 planes of existence a day if you can afford to so and are sufficiently high-leveled, in PF.
 
I am surprised that we are counting the setting were one wizard can fuck over an army as a low magic setting but then I have no real experience with D&D. So how does creating "new planes of existence" jive with the questing I thought made up the most of D&D play.
 
Personally, I'd call Warhammer a mid-fantasy setting. Nobody ever seems to act like these are things that exist, like you can only have high- or low-magic fantasy settings, but they're very much things.

Warhammer really really doesn't fit the trappings of a low-magic setting; there's spellcasters of all different stripes all over the world, magical creatures and non-human races frolicking everywhere you look, gods and demons personally interfering in the affairs of mortals, a moon made of evil magic that annually mass-mutates beasts and men into horrible caricatures or abominations, and a hell-plane forever within touching distance of the mystical that has two direct portals to it at the poles.

It's not really a high-magic setting either though, because for all that those things are intrinsic to the setting, the vast majority of the peoples of Warhammer can go through considerable portions of their lives without most of that stuff directly affecting them. Example: So sure, Warhammer woodsmen are superstitious of beastmen and angered fae in the woods, but people IRL were too - and though there's a factual basis for it in Warhammer, it's relevant rarely enough that most woodsmen can carry out their jobs without issue, for the most part. It's not a danger that they face directly every handful of days.
 
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Despite this, the two of them have equal statlines and it's the High Elf who gets a special rule or two reflecting military training and skillful formation fighting. The Dark Elves (worse) special rules are all about being really angry, which, okay, yes, they are really angry, but...

What I'm getting at here is that in my opinion the Dark Elf books have historically done a bad job of selling the idea that the Druchii take the super-skilled nature of elves, whose militia outmatch human career soldiers, and turns it entirely to warmaking.

I know this is from a while ago but I just wanted to comment, let me know if this point was already brought up. I think the obvious problem is that Dark Elves aren't Soldiers, their pirates, reveres, and warriors they're a group of individuals. High Elves are soldiers a group standing as a united whole and the simple reason for this difference is TRUST.

Dark Elves could NEVER stand together in a shield wall,trusting another Dark Elf to protect you with his shield? HAHAHAHA No. Lets not get into the sadism problem they have the need to inflect pain instead of putting the target down and moving on.

Their fear, paranoia, and casual hatred of each other means that while they can attack the same objective while working under a general plan, and can not get in each others way, they'll NEVER support each other, defend each other, or even call out something as simple as a warning.

I think this is why when it comes to army units of Dark Elf warriors, and militia high elves they stack up near equal.
 
I know this is from a while ago but I just wanted to comment, let me know if this point was already brought up. I think the obvious problem is that Dark Elves aren't Soldiers, their pirates, reveres, and warriors they're a group of individuals. High Elves are soldiers a group standing as a united whole and the simple reason for this difference is TRUST.

Dark Elves could NEVER stand together in a shield wall,trusting another Dark Elf to protect you with his shield? HAHAHAHA No. Lets not get into the sadism problem they have the need to inflect pain instead of putting the target down and moving on.

Their fear, paranoia, and casual hatred of each other means that while they can attack the same objective while working under a general plan, and can not get in each others way, they'll NEVER support each other, defend each other, or even call out something as simple as a warning.

I think this is why when it comes to army units of Dark Elf warriors, and militia high elves they stack up near equal.
Already been pointed out and countered. The Dark Elves pride themselves on being soldiers. On being one of the best (or the best period) armies of soldiers in Warhammer Fantasy in fact.
Lesser minds might see some contradiction in this outlook, but to the dark elves it is perfectly natural. Life is always in conflict with itself, and it is the privilege of the mighty to force a single answer upon the world. Simply by dint of its existence, a question demands an answer. Resources demand someone to consume them. Slaves demand a master to rule them. Unworthy claimants to these roles are frozen in their rightful places until only the strongest, those who cleave tightest to the warmth of Khaine's molten iron spirit, may seize the profits and positions that are their due. Nowhere is this more apparent than among the Druchii nobility, a nest of vipers constantly at war with itself, where treachery is the order of the day, selfish ambition is ubiquitous, and unscrupulous means of advancement are not merely permitted but encouraged - all save murder. The Witch King levies terrible punishments upon those who break his possessions without license, and all Naggaroth kneels in bondage to its dread master.

This rampant ambition and infighting is governed almost solely by a sense of time and place. To reach for more (and more, and more, always more) at the expense of another is allowed and expected - so long as doing so does not sabotage larger concerns. For a Druchii raider to pocket any treasures they can filch under their captain's nose rather than divvying up as communal spoils, this is right and natural. Equally, if that same raider encounters resistance serious enough to warrant calling for aid, any Druchii will come to their call, even if the two were bitter foes mere hours before. Nothing unites the masters of the Land of Chill like a common enemy; anything less would put lie to the Druchii's self-image as the supreme masters of warfare. Discipline and professional character, say the dark elves, is what sets them above the oafish greenskins, plebeian humans and amateurish Chaos-worshippers, who are so ignorant as to believe that skill at arms and skill at war are one and the same.
My conception of the Druchii is that, in some ways, they actually are famous for their discipline.

The Druchii are defined by their ambition and arrogance, viewing the entire world as merely a buffet on which to gorge themselves at their pleasure. But they are also defined by their hatred for you, the Asur, their yearning to wreak vengeance upon you, retake their ancestral home, and assert the primacy of rule by conquest over all 'lesser' justifications - and this unifies them. It is a central, foundational mythology of Naggaroth as a nation and the Druchii as a people - "we are the true elves, unjustly forced from our rightful homeland by the craven schemes of our effete, degenerate cousins, who we will overthrow and dominate in the name of Dread Malekith."

Culturally, Druchii ambition and infighting is governed by a sort of swinging pendulum, a sense of time and place. Vassals are allowed, even encouraged, to reach for more, more, more, even at each other's expense - so long as doing so doesn't sabotage larger concerns. If a group of Corsairs are sacking a town, they all expect each other to pounce on any chance for loot and spoils that they can clearly claim (or pocket on the sly) as solely their own instead of something collectively taken to be divvied up by the captain - and in turn, they all expect each other to come running if one of them encounters resistance serious enough to warrant calling for aid. Even if you have ongoing fueds with them, you still drop everything and help, because whatever you are out there, here in the fight you are comrades, closer than family, sworn to each other by the sanctity of bloodshed under the molten iron gaze of Kaela Mensha Khaine.

Warfare is the great unifier of the Druchii, a way for them to focus their aggression and hatred at an outside foe, and prove the military acumen on which they pride themselves. "We aren't like those oafish greenskins, plebeian humans or amateurish Chaos-worshippers," say the dark elves, "they think war is just about being good in a fight. We know better. We take this seriously." These are elves, after all; sophistication and artistry is prized, though it be cruel and murderous. So to undermine a campaign or a battle with personal scheming would compromise the Druchii's self-image as the supreme masters of warfare, which necessitates a more disciplined and professional outlook. This is, of course, never more true than in wars against the Asur, when the opportunity arises to visit racial vengeance upon their hated kin. For all of these reasons, while the Druchii are traditionally ruled by self-indulgence and internal strife, open war sublimates these desires into a chilling focus and tightly-governed discipline.
 
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I know this is from a while ago but I just wanted to comment, let me know if this point was already brought up. I think the obvious problem is that Dark Elves aren't Soldiers, their pirates, reveres, and warriors they're a group of individuals. High Elves are soldiers a group standing as a united whole and the simple reason for this difference is TRUST.
Uh, except they are? Like, when I say the Druchii pride themselves on their military tradition, I'm drawing direct from the army books. That's a major part of their beef with the Asur - they scorn the High Elves for being effete pansies who spend effort on things like art and diplomacy instead of prizing military strength above all. A major part of their cultural identity is that they see themselves as the heirs of Nagarythe, ancient home of Aenarion, greatest war-lord of all elvenkind.
Dark Elves 7e army book said:
The Dark Elves are descendants of the brave warriorfolk that dwelt in Nagarythe during the reign of Aenarion. They are raised from birth as soldiers and raiders, learning early on in their lives that they have only that which they can take. Though their natural mistrust and selfishness occasionally undermines discipline, Dark Elves make up for this with heartfelt bitterness and are united by their mutual loathing for all other creatures.
Dark Elves 8e army book said:
Dreadspears consider themselves to be true soldiers, and look down upon the Bleakswords as brash adventurers unsuited to the proper business of battle. Through blood spilt and shed they have learnt the value of discipline, of the locked shieldwall bristling with wicked spearpoints.
On this score I am changing the dark elves not by introducing new elements (that's the greater reliance on slaves), but by redistributing the emphasis of elements which are already there. And I kind of have to, because as I've pointed out several times in the past, canon Naggaroth is just... nonsensical. I'm supposed to believe that they're characterised by a propensity for excessive displays of treacherous murder, while living in a frozen wasteland with an elven birthrate, yet they have sufficient military power to challenge Ulthuan? No, that's fundamentally absurd. The whole nation should have imploded into backbiting anarchy millennia ago.
 
Are you reducing Naggaroth's population? Or at least figuring out a good explanation for how it sustains it's Elves AND slaves. Slaves still have to eat, even if you're willing to work them to death and beyond.
 
Are you reducing Naggaroth's population? Or at least figuring out a good explanation for how it sustains it's Elves AND slaves. Slaves still have to eat, even if you're willing to work them to death and beyond.

Underground sea and farms.

Been mentioned several times, most likely reason Naggaroth can sustain anything close to its current population level.
 
Most slaves would be working in agriculture helot style, so they would be feeding their masters and a reasonable number of themselves. With how poor and thin the Naggarothi soils would be these sort of mass plantations are probably how the Druchii reached ~2 million in the first place.
 
And I kind of have to, because as I've pointed out several times in the past, canon Naggaroth is just... nonsensical. I'm supposed to believe that they're characterised by a propensity for excessive displays of treacherous murder, while living in a frozen wasteland with an elven birthrate, yet they have sufficient military power to challenge Ulthuan?
I mean, clearly they are doing something right on the reproductive sciences scales, whether it be in the manner of Ghrondian sorcery, Malekith institutional decrees for birth-rebates, matching pro-Witch-King indoctrination with free commoner education, potentially even birth-quotas, or even something else I'm not thinking of. And/or some tremendous talent for trauma care, bringing people back from near death. The Dark Eldar in 40k got away with most of their murderous largesse with resort to cloning and resurrection from standby samples, but I don't see either of those applying to WHFB, so there must presumably be rather more of a set of brakes on the downward population pressures, and a number of policies for upward population.

Potentially even things like over the last eight-thousand years those family lines with a propensity for multiple births resisting the winnowing effects of Druchii society to a greater extent than other families, and now (industrial age moth evolution style) most druchii women have multiple births.

(And happily, I haven't had to seek recourse to edgelord ye olde breeding campe explanations!)

Edit: Even just having so many rabbit-like quicklings around may have a cultural effect emphasising birthrates =P
 
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On the numbers front, an idea I saw and liked-- though I couldn't tell you where-- was that the magical energies of the Vortex were making many of the High Elves sterile and playing merry havoc on their birth rate, which obviously would not apply to the Dark or Wood Elves and also plays into the whole "sacrificing themselves for everybody else" thing.
 
I mean, clearly they are doing something right on the reproductive sciences scales, whether it be in the manner of Ghrondian sorcery, Malekith institutional decrees for birth-rebates, matching pro-Witch-King indoctrination with free commoner education, potentially even birth-quotas, or even something else I'm not thinking of. And/or some tremendous talent for trauma care, bringing people back from near death. The Dark Eldar in 40k got away with most of their murderous largesse with resort to cloning and resurrection from standby samples, but I don't see either of those applying to WHFB, so there must presumably be rather more of a set of brakes on the downward population pressures, and a number of policies for upward population.

Potentially even things like over the last eight-thousand years those family lines with a propensity for multiple births resisting the winnowing effects of Druchii society to a greater extent than other families, and now (industrial age moth evolution style) most druchii women have multiple births.

(And happily, I haven't had to seek recourse to edgelord ye olde breeding campe explanations!)

Edit: Even just having so many rabbit-like quicklings around may have a cultural effect emphasising birthrates =P
The conscious rejection of Isha and unstable/unpredictable society probably would push them further away from K-type reproductive strategies than the normal Elven psychology would allow for.
Might not be edgelord breeding camps but it would mean marrying and having kids at a younger age.

Hate may solve many things, but when it has to patch over a childhood of malnutrition and the Elven equivalent of teen pregnancies for a multitude of generations, things get dicey in how they stack up to their Asur cousins.
It also helps explain why frequent invasions benefit Malekith despite being prone to failure, because frequent ecological disturbance(usually things like forest fires and volcano eruptions) heavily favour r-type strategies.
On the numbers front, an idea I saw and liked-- though I couldn't tell you where-- was that the magical energies of the Vortex were making many of the High Elves sterile and playing merry havoc on their birth rate, which obviously would not apply to the Dark or Wood Elves and also plays into the whole "sacrificing themselves for everybody else" thing.
Geheimnisnacht uses that explanation. Though IIRC even the devs themselves don't seem to remember why they agreed to it(the suggestions thread on the paradox forum has several posts of people asking for citations for their explanation), just that they did and that they're sticking to their explanation in the absence of canon material that directly contradicts them.

Edit:
Wait, lemme pull up a quote from the devs of that mod:
 
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That particular bit of Geheimnisnacht always irritated* me, tbh.

It's not like there aren't a hundred other more plausible explanations available for their low population/birthrate, many of which have been mentioned/brought up/listed as options either in this thread or the one on SB.


*Not as much as the...snake/lizard vampire things they made up whole cloth though.
 
Could you elaborate? The only things that come to mind are Khuresh and an offhand joke about vampire Lizardmen.
Basically misinterpreted Apocrypha. Though Nights Dark Masters proper does mention a Cathayan legend in Marco Polare's works about immortal eunuch sorcerers that drink the souls of men.

The things Geheimnisnacht gets wrong is that they're fluffing the Jade Blooded to be a more prolific and aggressive bloodline and that they have portraits of undead snakemen.

They aren't prolific(they are forbidden to breed and despite the occasional rule violation, are still the least numerous bloodline), they aren't aggressive(they prefer to manipulate others into fighting their wars over fighting themselves, prefer to strike from the shadows with poison, are patient and methodical and prefer to turn into snakes and flee if threatened) and they aren't snakemen.
 
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