SPA-USA is not Republican Spain. It is far more powerful, far less politically fragmented. Remember that the NKVD purges were mostly targeted at minor elements of the Republican coalition - the Catalonian anarchists, the POUM, not mainstream socialists who weren't radical enough for Stalin. Foster and the SPA are central to everything. They are in full control of the political situation, unlike the equivalent leaders Spain had. Even if Stalin had an iron grip over the country, shooting and replacing Foster would be putting a bullet in the head of the entire project. The CPUSA might cause trouble, but they don't have a mind control beam that'll let them start purging because we let a handful of Red Army NCOs set foot on American soil.
We should be careful with the Soviets, yes, but they're not idiots. They'll at least attempt to act in a rational manner.
My specific concern here is politicization of the armed forces.
Right now, the fighting forces of the Foster administration are largely militias and Great War veterans -- the choices we are making now influence what sort of institution it will be in the future. My read of the Butler pick and the move to bring on Soviet NCOs is that we are not necessarily committed to the old institutional structure or traditions of the US Army.
That's not a bad thing, necessarily -- but the greatest tradition of the US Army has been that the army respects, under all circumstances, civilian control of government. Bringing in Soviet cadres to train our new armed forces is a risk. The NBI taking the Moscow line is a risk. We want to assess these risks realistically, and mitigate as necessary, but given the historical record I do not think we should assume them away.
EDIT: Ah, ninjaed on ideological correctness. I suppose it's not a problem so long as we never take a deviationist line!
My specific concern here is politicization of the armed forces.
Right now, the fighting forces of the Foster administration are largely militias and Great War veterans -- the choices we are making now influence what sort of institution it will be in the future. My read of the Butler pick and the move to bring on Soviet NCOs is that we are not necessarily committed to the old institutional structure or traditions of the US Army.
That's not a bad thing, necessarily -- but the greatest tradition of the US Army has been that the army respects, under all circumstances, civilian control of government. Bringing in Soviet cadres to train our new armed forces is a risk. The NBI taking the Moscow line is a risk. We want to assess these risks realistically, and mitigate as necessary, but given the historical record I do not think we should assume them away.
IDK if you're aware but like, a whole lot of people don't think we're the legitimate government. We need a politicised armed forces, we're fighting a civil war
That's not a bad thing, necessarily -- but the greatest tradition of the US Army has been that the army respects, under all circumstances, civilian control of government.
In case you didn't notice, two-thirds of the Army is now fighting the other third, Secretariat, and one side is recruiting unions and the other the Klan. The tradition is fucking dead.
And let's not forget the first civil war, where a good half of the senior officers of the military decided their response to civilian control of the military was "fuck you, we're going to make our own state where the civilians agree with us."
IDK if you're aware but like, a whole lot of people don't think we're the legitimate government. We need a politicised armed forces, we're fighting a civil war
I'll add another counter-argument on the pile: Smedley Butler already politicized our armed forces. He politicized the hell out of them. With a committed socialist as our CoS, a functioning NBI and a President who isn't a hardline Stalinist, I think we'll be fine.
The USSR is our ally. This doesn't mean that we are automatically friends, but that does mean that we are one another's best bets for survival in this world that is so hostile and cruel towards leftists. We need them and they need us. That's where the buck stops, in my opinion.
natruska said:
The CPUSA might cause trouble, but they don't have a mind control beam that'll let them start purging because we let a handful of Red Army NCOs set foot on American soil.
Oh man, I'd kill for some competent NCOs right about now, no matter where they're from. von Steuben built the Continental Army's NCO corps, we'll likely need an advisor to do the same for us.
Oh man, I'd kill for some competent NCOs right about now, no matter where they're from. von Steuben built the Continental Army's NCO corps, we'll likely need an advisor to do the same for us.
No one in America currently has any competent NCOs, so if we can get some, from abroad or from a new training mandate from above, that's a massive boon.
I'll add another counter-argument on the pile: Smedley Butler already politicized our armed forces. He politicized the hell out of them. With a committed socialist as our CoS, a functioning NBI and a President who isn't a hardline Stalinist, I think we'll be fine.
The USSR is our ally. This doesn't mean that we are automatically friends, but that does mean that we are one another's best bets for survival in this world that is so hostile and cruel towards leftists. We need them and they need us. That's where the buck stops, in my opinion.
Don't have much to add. I think this is the right analysis, here -- that this is what the CoS vote was about, fundamentally, and thread voted for Butler. (Pretty decisively, IIRC.)
I do wonder what happens if Butler and the Soviets end up on different sides of an ideological or nationalist question, but I suppose that's a problem to solve later, after the inevitable Soviet-American split.
Any quest like this that relies on dice is gonna have shit like that.
It's not really realistic, and that's why generally military wargames have like, referees and expert advisors who make calls about how things go rather than using dice, but... this isn't a military wargame, it's a forum game, lol.
Don't stress too much over the dice and their impacts, it's just how things go sometimes. We just need to plan around the dice being whimsical.
[X] The American Soviets Plan
-[X] Specific Commodity Shortages
-[X] The NBI was used
-[X] For Advisors
This is half taking the piss, but also, I think it's probably our best shot long term? Minimizes impact of shortages to a mild political malus, gets the political class in our pocket, and gives us experienced advisors (which are, at this point, more valuable than gold IMO).
I have nothing else to add that hasn't been already said. We have more to gain than lose from Soviet support, Stalin is an opportunist but he's not stupid and a lot of norms are becoming dead and buried. We have the chance to build a completely new America instead of revising some clauses and interpretations like what happened in the first Civil War. Why pass up the chance now while we have it?
Any quest like this that relies on dice is gonna have shit like that.
It's not really realistic, and that's why generally military wargames have like, referees and expert advisors who make calls about how things go rather than using dice, but... this isn't a military wargame, it's a forum game, lol.
There aren't expert advisors due to none of us being senior staff officers anywhere, but I will reiterate (since it's important for the planning turn) that this is not dice decided. The way I will run things is that each engagement takes place in multiple rounds, defined by:
An objective for each side. For instance, taking a city and defending a city.
Geography of the area and the rail network, which decides where an attack can come from.
I will then have multiple rounds, with advice from other co QMs, to conduct within each phase of an engagement:
Arguments in favor of one side and against the other.
Arguments against the first side and in favor of the other.
The effect of environmental conditions, troop modifiers (e.g. morale) on the attack: An attack by tired draftees in mud and sleet is far worse than one by fresh troops in good weather.
The effect of in-character commander choices: E.g. Smedley Butler repeatedly allowed union workers to armor up the trains and used those to send in probing attacks.
Roll for 'luck' or RNG. This will never decide the entire engagement, but can cause the current phase to stall due to heroic delaying actions, for instance.
Move to next phase. Conclude this with what happened to each side: How badly they're hit morale wise, how badly they're hit casualty wise, what territory gained/lost, condition of ammo and so on. Finish engagement and conclude if one side either accomplishes objective or pulls back.
IDK if you're aware but like, a whole lot of people don't think we're the legitimate government. We need a politicised armed forces, we're fighting a civil war
Exactly. The only concern is they might disagree with our policies but winning battles and passing socialist leaning laws should stem any potential dissent.
Map has been updated for current planning. Note that the enemy has fortified just the Mississippi bridges on that span, no time for a full fortified zone.
The situation in Maryland makes me uncomfortable. As mentioned in the results from last turn, they've driven a bit of a wedge between Baltimore and Hagerstown. Individually, they're both decent defensive positions. Baltimore is a large urban area with the sea on one flank (although that sea does currently have enemy ships in it...) and relatively defensible supply lines, and they'd have to push through bad terrain to take Hagerstown. But it does mean that (like the Confederates in Civil War One) they could leave the rail network and push into Pennsylvania to threaten Harrisburg and the rail lines. I don't think it's likely they'd risk overextending like that, but it doesn't feel good to see the enemy that close to another state capital. If we could launch a counter-offensive in Maryland to straighten out the lines that'd be nice, but we'll probably have bigger priorities.
Really need to clear those guys in Upstate NY off the board. That should be our no. 1 priority for offensive action, since even if it isn't successful we should be able to mop them up before winter.
Southern Illinois/Indiana/Ohio are all still up in the air, but FDR's cleaned up Richmond and secured Virginia while pushing us out of D.C. The Shenandoah Valley could be a sideshow for the D.C-Baltimore campaign if that starts to settle into static warfare. He could go down the valley (it's like the Nile, up is south and down is north) to try to crack open Hagerstown and enter Pennsylvania, or we could go up the valley to claim some minor victories and cut the smaller rail lines feeding DC. Still love you West Virginia!
Not many thoughts about the SOUTHCOM area except that my gut feeling is counter-attacking across the river wouldn't be good. Don't want to be funneled into fortified areas around bridges, and don't want the advance to be bottlenecked at those bridges after they're taken. Plenty of stuff to do in the Ohio River area, plenty of trenches to dig.
[X] Plan Let Them Eat Bread
-[X]Specific Commodity Shortages
-[X]Targeted Exemptions
-[X]For Advisors
The situation is stabilizing. While the enemy has made gains in Missouri along the banks of the Mississippi and in taking the nation's capital at Washington D.C., they've been halted in both theaters. The industrial mass of the steel belt is slowly being mobilized, and the militias that were a disparate, disorganized force have now been welded into a cohesive body.
All that remains, then, is to hold until we're ready. And then, we bring the war to them.
On Units:
A Militia Brigade consists of two regiments of volunteer militiamen given basic training in fire and movement, half the machine guns of a regular unit, and a mortar company trained for static defense/fire.
A Militia Cavalry Regiment is a regiment of volunteers with rifles on horses, and a company of mortarmen who dismount for static/positional fire.
A Fortress brigade is a brigade of overage veterans trained for static defense with the same number of machine guns and mortars as a regular unit.
A Regular Infantry division is a four-brigade formation (since brigade/regiment kept changing in the interwar era, I have standardized on square division=four brigades) based on World War I divisions.
An Armored Train is used to get troops into combat fast, impervious to small arms, and can be spalled to death by armor piercing HMG fire. They are a bonus in combat along rail lines.
I. WESTCOM: WESTCOM covers the long stretch of land west of the Dakotas, along the borders of the Montana and Wyoming. At present WESTCOM is settling into defensive positions, beginning to fortify the rail yards at Fargo and preparing for further operations along the railroad lines.. There are 'home defense' groups springing up all along the area, but all too many are completely untrained and are reluctant to take orders that they do not think are good ones. The theater commander cautions that a major sweep of the countryside requires trained troops rather than organized militias, due to the trained units' better grip of land-navigation.
Order of Battle: Western Theater Command (Lt. Gen. Preston Brown)
Commander Expertise: Artillery, Staff Officer
Commander Issues: Unfamiliarity: Air Operations, Cautious, Unfamiliarity: Armor
Political Leaning: Right-Constitutionalist
I Corps (Fargo, ND)
-90th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
II Corps (Yankton, SD)
-91st Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-92nd Infantry Brigade (Militia)
Theater Reserve: Minneapolis, MN
-Armored Train Liberty (Makeshift armor, pintle mounted MG on engine)
-93rd Infantry Brigade (Militia, Theater Reserve)
-3rd Independent Cavalry Regiment (Militia Cavalry, Garrison/Sweeps Through Countryside)
[]Securing Copper Reserves: There's more copper, some silver and some gold in Montana, as well as another stretch of the transcontinental railroad to the West Coast. We have the railroad junctions to the West Coast and a staging area at Fargo, ND, and an armored train backed by an infantry brigade can deal with most militia opposition. And if we run into organized forces...it's always better to have buffer space. Recommended force: I Corps and Theater Reserve. Will attempt to secure rail lines to Billings and Butte, Montana.
[]Fortification and Defense: This will task units to build up strongpoints from which we can send off rail repair crews and reinforcements along the rail lines, and defend the vast swathes of plains with the smallish organized force we have. As well as the militiamen with old rifles that can be called up in sympathetic areas for home defense. Tasks all assigned units to fortify, areas in priority order: Yankton SD, Fargo ND, Minneapolis MN, Rapid City SD, Watertown SD.
[]Write in Plan
[]Transfer Units:
-[]Write In Unit and Theater
II. SOUTHCOM: SOUTHCOM is better off than WESTCOM in that it has the Regular divisions that pulled back from St. Louis (depleted as they are), as well as the two conscript units that we rushed through Infantry Basic. The issue for SOUTHCOM is that southern Illinois is contested, there is an enemy force holding the Mississippi bridges across to Illinois, and the south of Indiana is relatively lightly fortified. We need to consolidate before pushing outwards, and we can at most mount probing or spoiling attacks into zones of enemy control. A full scale offensive when we have more units coming out of the pipeline than them is not advised unless we commit the most forces we can.
Commander: Lieutenant General George Patton (New Appointment)
Expertise: Armor, Aggressive/Offensive Operations
Issues: Inexperienced
Political Leaning: Mildly Left-of-Center, Constitutionalist
Note: Fast learner
III Corps (Illinois)
-94th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-95th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-96th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
IV Corps (Ohio)
-97th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-98th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
[]Secure Southern Illinois: The bulk of our oil flows from wells that are in contested territory, and some of the most solidly reactionary territory in the Midwest at that. The region is one where militias still bushwhack and snipe at one another with the Rooseveltian forces waiting on the other side of the Ohio – best we take the area before they do. And be ready to pull back if needed and counterattack when the overextend. They have more regulars than we do...for now. Recommended: 6-8 Militia brigades, 1-2 Regular brigades. Will attempt an offensive down the rails to southern IL and sweeps by cavalry and Regulars where the rails don't run. Armored trains will help. An aggressive offensive on more than one axis. -[]Write in modifications
[]Probing Attacks: Kentucky: The enemy has a major rail hub in Lexington, Kentucky, and the state itself is a convenient location for assaults into Indiana and Ohio. It's best that we see what they have here, and whether the units that intelligence tells us about are indeed present and capable. Theater command envisions attacks by regiment-strength formations raiding across the Ohio and/or shelling enemy positions from across the Ohio. The idea is to provoke, to sow chaos, and to pin down enemy forces for a small expenditure of our own men. Recommended: 2-4 Militia Brigades, 1-2 Militia Cavalry Brigades.
[]Dig In: We can use the units outside the fortified zones to reinforce the region and begin digging in along the rail network to defend what we hold. We would be using the armored trains, horse cavalry, and Regulars from Chicago to counterpunch an enemy offensive while the militiamen pin them down. An aggressive form of defense suited to the theater's open spaces and the need to route logistics and men along the rail lines. All tasked units will fortify in major rail hubs in Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana that you control and be used to counterattack/flank enemy attacks using alternate rail routes.
[]Write in Plan
[]Transfer Units
-[]Write In Units and Theater
III. EASTCOM: The enemy has taken Washington D.C. and has partially invested Baltimore. The enemy has enough forces to potentially threaten the crucial railroad junction at Hagerstown. While we've fortified Baltimore as best as we can with wire, dugouts, and reinforcement of buildings to make ersatz bunkers, it isn't a proper fortress – and the foe has a battleship in the Chesapeake Bay. Either we dig in and attempt a slow push to dislodge them from the bombardment position at Columbia, MD, or we accept that the front is at Baltimore.
Eastern Command: Lieutenant General Albert J. Bowley (New Appointment)
Commander Expertise: Artillery, Staff Experience
Commander Issues: Cautious, Unfamiliarity: Air and Armor
Political Stance: Constitutionalist
V Corps (Pennsylvania)
-Armored Train Washington
-10th Infantry Division (Conscript/Rush Training, Understrength Artillery)
-9th Infantry Division (Regular, Brigade-Strength)
VI Corps (Maryland)
-102nd Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-103rd Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-109th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
VII Corps (West Virginia)
-104th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
Baltimore Fortified Region
-105th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-106th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-21st/40th/103rd Coast Artillery Companies (Obsolete Coast Artillery, Heavy Mortars)
Philadelphia Fortified Region
-107th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-11th Infantry Division (Two Brigades, Conscript/Rush Training, No Gun Artillery (Only Mortars and Light Guns))
-108th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
Theater Reserve
-26th/28th/38th Infantry Divisions (Brigade Strength Amalgamated Unit, Regulars)
Note that it is difficult to move coast artillery at best, and impossible at worst. Moving those units will mean using just the heavy mortars.
[]Dig In: The idea is to create a multilayered fortified line centered on the railroad network and with artillery zeroed in on the intervening thinner zones of control. For this we'd prefer to have as many units as possible, since the model is the theater commander's experience of the Western Front – but whatever can be spared will do. The objective, after all, is to hold Baltimore and pen the enemy in. Fortifies Baltimore and the Potomac front with what units can be assigned.
[]Grinding Push Onwards: The terrain for an assault through Hagerstown is not at all favorable, but we can take advantage of controlling the Hagerstown-Baltimore railroad well enough to use armored trains and light artillery to catch some of their lines in more than one line of fire and then hit them where they're weakest. The assault will aim to take the landscape until Bethesda ridgeline by ridgeline, and be careful of spending too many lives. Recommended: 1 Armored Train, 2-4 Infantry brigades, 4-8 Militia brigades.
[]Probing Assaults: Virginia: The aim here is to take advantage of the local knowledge of the West Virginia miners that make up the militia unit and the firepower of what regulars we have. Mount attacks on Bluefield, VA, using what units we have and reinforce the militia with Regulars if the enemy forces in the area are spread particularly thin. Once through Bluefield, we can prepare for an assault into Virginia proper and Richmond, either immediately or later depending on losses and enemy actions taken. A cautious push into VA through Bluefield, using the WV miners militia brigade to push through rough terrain and scout Bluefield, probe the outer defenses and then hit the area. Recommended: VII Corps, 1-2 Regular Brigades, 1-2 Militia brigades for followup.
[]Write In Planning
[]Transfer Units
-[]Theater, Units? IV. NORTHCOM: There is a loyalist concentration in New York State, one that has had time to dig in and prepare for an offensive into those hills. We've built up a decent cordon around the capital and the rail lines into it, but that enemy concentration sits on too much rail capacity to allow it to exist any longer.
Northern Command: Lieutenant General Frank Parker
Area of Expertise: Cavalry, Foreign Doctrine (France), Staff Officer
Issues: Unfamiliarity: Air Operations, Cautious, Unfamiliarity: Armor
Political Leaning: Right-Constitutionalist
VIII Corps (New York)
-110th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-111th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-112th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
IX Corps (Massachusetts)
-113th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
X Corps (Pennsylvania)
-115th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-116th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
New York Fortified Region
-114th Infantry Brigade (Militia)
-81st Infantry Brigade (Fortress)
-Armored Train Empire State
Theater Reserves (New York City)
-1st Infantry Division 'Big Red One' (Two Brigades, Regulars)
-43rd Infantry Division 'Winged Victory' (Brigade Strength Regulars)
[]Dig In: Prepare for winter, and reinforce the lines. The enemy won't break out easily, and we have other things to do on other fronts – best to contain them and keep them out of the way. All assigned units will be fortifying the lines.
[]Border Guards: Assign more units to watch the Canadian borders, in anticipation of some mischief from the Great White North. Assign units to border guards. -[]Write In
[]Crush the Pocket: The enemy has had time build up fortifications and whip their militiamen into some sort of shape as light infantry. Their militiamen are locals and have a good grasp on the terrain. The area is not going to be easy and quick, but we can crush them and ensure that New York State is once more under loyal hands. An offensive from three axes – Pennsylvania, Mass, and NY. Slow, methodical, and emphasizing artillery preparation for assault. Recommended: 2-6 Regular Brigades, 6-8 Militia, 3 Armored Trains. Even a badly conducted or poorly resourced offensive will take some ground, seeing as the enemy does not have a reliable supply line.
[]Write In Plan
[]Transfer Units
-[]Write In Units and Theater
V. NAVCOM: We have a semblance of a fleet, but the mobilized reserve units have to be trained up to standard before we attempt anything like breaching the Chesapeake Bay. We're training landsmen to man a battleship and have no flag-rank admiral who knows fleet maneuvering at more than the cruiser level. This takes time.
[X]Secure the Sealanes: Secure coastal shipping with cruisers and destroyer patrols, and call in the half-trained battlewagons while we do. This will be a useful exercise while the fleet spins up. And it would not do to have coastal shipping and fishing face up to enemy raiders while the U.S. Navy stands by and watches.
AN: Twelve hour moratorium for planning and discussion, and I anticipate voting being open for a full 24 hours post that.
@mouli , on the map for this turn I see that the Delmarva is solid SPA territory, but the East Shore of Virginia isn't colored any way. Is that SPA territory, contested, or Rooseveltian? Also, South and Eastcom are missing V and VII corps, respectively, it's just a list of units all under one corps.
In any case, I'd like to submit a writeup there to a) if not controlled, take the Delmarva peninsula, and b) move the coast artillery companies under our control to the East Shore to invest the entrance of the Chesapeake. I count at least 18 individual M1895 guns and numerous smaller guns that we could transfer there, and at that location we'd be able to invest the entire bay north of Newport News. We couldn't keep ships from slipping out of Norfolk to the Atlantic, but anything larger than a destroyer will have to leave the bay quick or get pounded. Moving even half of those guns there would put a serious crimp on any attempted naval actions on the Rooseveltian's part and secure our flank.
EDIT: the reason I'm suggestion this is that in this time, there are no bridges from Virginia to the East shore. Those poor Rooseveltian saps are effectively on their own save for what requisitioned civilian ferries might be able to bring over. Taking it would require relatively little in the way of regular formations, allowing a very small commitment for potentially large gains.
@mouli , on the map for this turn I see that the Delmarva is solid SPA territory, but the East Shore of Virginia isn't colored any way. Is that SPA territory, contested, or Rooseveltian? Also, South and Eastcom are missing V and VII corps, respectively, it's just a list of units all under one corps.
Will fix the latter, and the Virginia shore is Rooseveltian. The Delmarva is yours.
E: V and VII Corps are Eastern Command units? I can see them under EASTCOM, with VII Corps being a staff formation for West Virginia, while V Corps is based in Pennsylvania.
Will fix the latter, and the Virginia shore is Rooseveltian. The Delmarva is yours.
E: V and VII Corps are Eastern Command units? I can see them under EASTCOM, with VII Corps being a staff formation for West Virginia, while V Corps is based in Pennsylvania.
