Sure. I'm just saying it would be hilariously ineffective. It would actually be the most effective way to bankrupt Western Europe and make sure they are cut off from the Americas.
Native Americans get bending abilities in 900 AD
- Thread starter Shiva12
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Sure. I'm just saying it would be hilariously ineffective. It would actually be the most effective way to bankrupt Western Europe and make sure they are cut off from the Americas.
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But would there even be a crusade? Assuming Columbus gets nixed, it would take a long time for anyone in Europe to realize the Americas exist. Even if someone ends up wandering that way, who would believe them? All the Church would have is stories unless they decide to investigate. Without something like someone catching and dragging back a living bender, I can't see them finding tall tales worth the expense and time of arranging a crusade on anywhere else but the Holy Land.
Not really crusades stopped being a significant effort after 1200s.
There is absolutely no way a crusade occurs in that era.
- Location
- sweden
A very interesting first Native American, Viking encounter to start with.
Would really depend on if the first encounter devolved into violence. Even if that happened the Vikings could well just surrender after seeing bending, thinking that they were some kind of magical folk and the land was Alfheim or vanaheim or something.
So... That might be hella bendy on history. The NA's didn't have metal, horses, cows, goats, sheep, pigs or any other easy livestock animals. If the Vikings started actual trading and proper settlement then Columbus wouldn't ever be relevant since literally every Norse and their mixed offspring descendants would just say "oh you don't know what's on the other side of the ocean? It's the land of the elements and spirit people."
So... Yeah. Vikings come, probably thinks the small elf people with weird skin colour and speak gibberish are pretty cool and trades with them and make a new half viking, half Native American culture like they did in Ireland, Russia, France, England and Byzantium.
Would really depend on if the first encounter devolved into violence. Even if that happened the Vikings could well just surrender after seeing bending, thinking that they were some kind of magical folk and the land was Alfheim or vanaheim or something.
So... That might be hella bendy on history. The NA's didn't have metal, horses, cows, goats, sheep, pigs or any other easy livestock animals. If the Vikings started actual trading and proper settlement then Columbus wouldn't ever be relevant since literally every Norse and their mixed offspring descendants would just say "oh you don't know what's on the other side of the ocean? It's the land of the elements and spirit people."
So... Yeah. Vikings come, probably thinks the small elf people with weird skin colour and speak gibberish are pretty cool and trades with them and make a new half viking, half Native American culture like they did in Ireland, Russia, France, England and Byzantium.
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- Human/Form/Keyblade
Only people from North America receive bending? or all america like the incas in peru, the yonomamis in brazil or the mapuches in argentina and others. I ask because I am South American.
It's bullshit. Spain at this time was rising up and becomeing the super power. It was a unified centralized state with a battle tested army and thanks to purges a Loyal homogeneous population that should cut down on strife. I'm not one of those people who say that Spain was ruined when they conquered the new world because inflation, because the new world did enrich Spain. Saying that they were a weak backwater makes no sense if they were how could they have conquered the Aztec empire?
Because everyone of the Aztec's vassals hated their (Aztec's) guts?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
In addition, the Crusades didn't happen just because.
Each Crusade has complex geopolitical reasons. Europe simply does not have a reason to go and try to start a war across the ocean.
All of north and South America
- Location
- United States
I think you're missing a large chunk of history were a certain religion conquered and converted large swaths of territory starting from Medina sweeping around the Med (nearly breaking into Southern France) to the Gates of Vienna and stretching to India. Granted, most folks only think of one religion when religious wars are mentioned (and somehow miss that even those were largely in response to almost 300 years of Jihad).
As far as the Americas...Jared Diamond aside (and I'm more in the camp that his theories only sortof work for the Americas and even then you have to squint a little), bending doesn't make Native Americans immune to disease. There's also a reason why the major pre-Columbian civs (Aztec, Inca) where in less than ideal locations (Aztecs in the middle of a swamp essentially, and Incas in the difficult terrain of the Andes) rather than what would have been prime 'easy mode' real estate for virtually any classic Ancient World civilization (along the banks of the mighty Mississippi...largest interconnected navigable waterway in the world, overlaying the largest chunk of arable land in the world, with lots of civ 'starter materials' such as surface copper readily available right along the river network). Pretty much the nomadic and semi-nomadic tribes pushed each other across the continent like billiard balls. One tribe would displace another and they'd knock another tribe or two out of their territory as they moved (the Aztecs originally came from North America as a side note & why there is a Eagle sitting on a cactus with a snake in its beak on the Mexican flag). Defensible terrain protected these civs from the usual way of things.
The same thing happened on the other continents as well but eventually some things took root. Ideas spread along trade routes (along with animals and other goods). A network that Native Americans were terribly isolated from and even with the advantages of elemental bending are unlikely to discover on their own simply because of the nature of tribal warfare (Now with Magic Death Powers!).
Usually in tribal warfare a handful would die, they'd figure out who brought more warriors, and the weaker side would skedaddle. Potentially elemental bending is even deadlier than many firearms. Unleashed in societies that were far from idyllic. And unlike a higher tech society which would lose access to these deadlier weapons as their societies collapsed, the benders would remain slaughter machines (and Native American civs were on a sort of cycle of boom and bust....they'd flourish, some sort of crisis would occur, they'd institutionally collapse, and the survivors would scatter into smaller groups to survive and it would take a few generations for the cycle to begin again).
The benders can kill and take whatever they want to survive. And tribal societies are essentially low trust societies...benders may be the natural leaders of the new order of things, but without stronger institutions every other bender would be a potential threat (making it a lot harder to grow beyond a small tribal level). My money would be that the Americas would have even smaller populations as tribes likely couldn't grow beyond a few family groups considering any potential internal political player is armed with a bazooka and tribal warfare is a lot deadlier than OTL (and they'd still get whammied by disease).
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- Location
- California
One of the big reasons colonial forces did so well against Native American troops was because of their forts. While man to man the natives were superior to milita groups, they lacked easy access to cannon.
This difference in access to cannon meant that when Natives attempted to defend fortified positions, they were at a huge disadvantage and when they attempted to directly assault fortified positions they were at another disadvantage.
Earthbending alone makes it extremely easy to fortify positions to a much larger degree. By the same token, earthbending makes it much easier to assault static positions. That's one major barrier out of the way.
Another major European tactic was assaulting Native villiages and forcing either a direct fight or the destruction of food stores. With firebending at the natives disposal, tactics of burning crops become much easier for Natives to pull off in retaliation.
Of course, as mentioned, Natives were hardly one unified group. OTL, they were quite willing to play European groups against each other. They would offer aid against both other tribes and other colonies in return for payments from the Europeans. Them possessing bending could make the Europeans even more intrested in bartering for services.
Knowing what would happen is obviously impossible, but I would wager that Europeans manage to establish colonies/trading ports in some areas, but their spread will be much slower at best and the Natives could use that time to adopt many European advantages.
This difference in access to cannon meant that when Natives attempted to defend fortified positions, they were at a huge disadvantage and when they attempted to directly assault fortified positions they were at another disadvantage.
Earthbending alone makes it extremely easy to fortify positions to a much larger degree. By the same token, earthbending makes it much easier to assault static positions. That's one major barrier out of the way.
Another major European tactic was assaulting Native villiages and forcing either a direct fight or the destruction of food stores. With firebending at the natives disposal, tactics of burning crops become much easier for Natives to pull off in retaliation.
Of course, as mentioned, Natives were hardly one unified group. OTL, they were quite willing to play European groups against each other. They would offer aid against both other tribes and other colonies in return for payments from the Europeans. Them possessing bending could make the Europeans even more intrested in bartering for services.
Knowing what would happen is obviously impossible, but I would wager that Europeans manage to establish colonies/trading ports in some areas, but their spread will be much slower at best and the Natives could use that time to adopt many European advantages.
Just checked, you are right.
Never said Spain was backwater, but they were in a difficult position.
Portugal had earned exclusive rights for all trade south of the canary islands (And thus India) after a conflict with Spain.This is a very important reason on why the Catholic kings bothered to fund Columbus.
The discovery of America enriched Spain beyond measure not denying that.
Search up the Noche Triste (The sad night) were Cortez was trying to escape from Tenochtitlan, got injured, lost several of his men and according to Bernal Diaz del Castillo was crying.
Also the conquest of the Aztecs was relatively fast compared to other natives. Some had holdouts even as far as 1700s.
There were some places were the Spanish were thinking of giving up their claim because of how hard they were resisted.
Not saying that in the OTL someone wouldnt eventually have succeeded, the technological disparity ensured that they would have eventually been conqured.
But with bending the game changes a lot. For the technology of that age, bending is a bigger thing than ot would have been in our era. I would expect fiercer resistance. And more successful rebellions when the Europeans start abusing the natives.
Yep, this is the big thing the Europeans won mostly by playing the natives against each other and because of different sicknesses they brought.
Sickness is still the number 1 killer of the natives as in the otl.
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My question is if Europe could go from tribes to kingdoms & nations, why couldn't the Amerinds graduate from tribes to kingdoms by the time the Vikings or Columbus arrive on their shores? It's like no one here thinks they can develop into large kingdoms or empires after a few hundred years.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
There were quite a bunch of Kingdoms and Empires in pre-colonization America.
Waterbending has magical healing powers, so that'll change stuff.
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- Location
- Turtle Island
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- They/Them
There factually were state level societies, including empires, in the Americas at the time of the Arrival of Columbus, and indeed dating to several hundred years before (by no means an exhaustive list):
In South America: The Wari and Tiwanaku empires (both precursors to the Inka, brought down by hemisphere wide drought in the 12th century CE) The Inka themselves, The Chimu
In Central America: The Aztecs, Teotihuacan (200 BCE - 600 CE), zapotec (700 - 1400 CE), Yaxchilan (Maya City)
In North America: The Iriquois Confederacy, Cahokia, the Pubeloans
At many points in history cities in the Americas were larger and cleaner than any contemporaneous European city: Cusko (Inka Capatial), Cahoka, Tenochtitlan (Aztec Capital)
There is also the problematic notion that having nation-states and kingdoms is somehow more 'advanced' than egalitarian tribes, though to be clear there were plenty of both in the Americas. There is a tendency in the modern context to homogenize all fist nations individuals, when people find out I am first nations there is often a sentence something like: "tell me about [random tribe]." I am from what is now the southeast US, asking me about a tribe from the southwest is like asking a Russian to tell you about the culture of the UK because they're both European.
So. Where to start. First, small pox developed in pigs, which have A and B and AB type blood. Most Europeans are of these blood-types as well, so when small pox jumped to humans many Europeans had some resistance due to having the appropriate antigens due to the same blood types. Most Native Americans at the time had O type blood and no natural resistance. Native American cultures also had much better sanitation and hygiene than Europe and so less robust immune systems because they didn't need them. How much more fierce resistance do you want? The Aztecs still almost beat the Spanish despite losing by some estimates 50% of their population to disease. A similar toll is true throughout the Americas. Estimates range between 25-50% of the population falling to disease, much of it before formal contact with Europeans. Despite this tribes were fighting conquest up until the 19th century, not the 17th
Absent disease I don't care about a 'technological disparity' the Spanish (any other colonial power) would have been crushed. As an example the Inka had a professional army of 100,000 persons, who knew the local terrain, and a road network to rival the Romans in much rougher terrain. The Inka emperor was killed by small pox shortly before the Spanish arrived to conquer and the Inka were in the middle of a succession crisis while, again, losing conservatively 25% of their population to disease.
And, yes, the Europeans did sometimes 'play' different tribes off of each other. Tribes did the same to different European powers too. Europeans have done it to each other throughout the history of Europe -- see basically all of Britain's foreign policy after the Elizabethean era.
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Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
You know, probably the biggest thing about the potential Viking\Skraeling people is that if they inherit the bending ability (as I assume they would), they'd likely bring those abilities back to the nordic regions, because I'm sure the Vikings were smart enough to recognize the obvious tactical advantages of elemental magic. (Water and Air especially would be super valuable for their abilities to assist with sailing.)
In other words; cut to the first few centuries of the 2nd millennium and England would totally be getting raided by magical Vikings.
I can't help but feel that magical Vikings would have something of an impact on the rest of Europe.
In other words; cut to the first few centuries of the 2nd millennium and England would totally be getting raided by magical Vikings.
I can't help but feel that magical Vikings would have something of an impact on the rest of Europe.
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Ok, so there were several large kingdoms/empires in the Americas during this time. With their larger population coupled with the bending arts, wouldn't they expand & develop a more stationary culture like the Aztecs? Earthbending means easy built buildings & roads. Waterbending means rivers & oceans are easily traversed. Combine both & agriculture would be almost as easy as in modern times. I'm assuming there are Amerind merchants so trade & travel would become easier. Wars would be much more common. Steel could be introduced by the Vikings. There's no reason why the Amerinds couldn't overtake the Europeans technologically.
Ok, so there were several large kingdoms/empires in the Americas during this time. With their larger population coupled with the bending arts, wouldn't they expand & develop a more stationary culture like the Aztecs? Earthbending means easy built buildings & roads. Waterbending means rivers & oceans are easily traversed. Combine both & agriculture would be almost as easy as in modern times. I'm assuming there are Amerind merchants so trade & travel would become easier. Wars would be much more common. Steel could be introduced by the Vikings. There's no reason why the Amerinds couldn't overtake the Europeans technologically.
- Location
- Turtle Island
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- They/Them
I mean there were pretty stationary cultures - hence the large cities. And like the Cahokia/Mississipian cultural complex extends from Wisconsin to North Carolina. The Inka controlled basically all of the Andes - a region significantly larger than all but Russia even today. The Iroquois controlled much of now New York. But it's also important to consider that Indigenous North Americans viewed what was worth controlling in a different way. Europe was/is very much focused on 'I want to control this land and everything in and around it' for the most part. Most indigenous societies would control a resource they wanted and access to it via a some route and not bother with everything else. There were trade routes regularly bringing goods from South America to the midwest and the reverse. Many tribes also had really advanced metallurgy, including iron working in the PNW. Pre European contact Americas were also in contact with the pacific. There were multiple expeditions by the Polynesians to South America while the Europeans were still in their metaphorical exploration diapers.
Edit: Also, Europeans were/are like the worst at agriculture. Only ways in which they were more 'advanced' was the ability to kill people and take other people's shit
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Why would the Viking be the only ones to travel across the ocean?
A significant collection of various native American societies might decide to make the journey across the seas.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Oh sure, but they get bending in 900 AD and 100 years probably isn't long enough for the developments in navigation needed to travel long distances over open ocean, and the Vikings arrive in Vinland around 1000 AD.
So odds are Lief Erikson and co are still the first direct cross-atlantic contact. After that, if the Norse attempts at colonization go better than OTL, Viking navigation techniques would begin to spread and with water and air benders I expect American ships would show up in Europe, Africa or Asia long before the 15th century.
Please reread my post again. I said that would have been a thing in the original timeline. Bending changes this.
They had already done so in some fields such as medicine, math, astronomy, some fields of engineering.
Just because they hadnt figured some things doesnt make them less advanced.
The Europeans had however better technology to wage war.
I honesty really doubt this could occur in the sixteenth century. They weren't as advanced as the Europeans regarding ships.
I am not sure it can cure sickness. If it can american medics will still be overwhelmed but the death toll would be far lower compared to the otl.
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- Location
- Turtle Island
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm saying it wouldn't have been a thing in the original timeline absent disease. Knowledge of the land, numbers, and gurellia tactics beat technology - see eg. Vietnam.
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- Location
- Santiago de Chile
Em... A lot of you seems to forget that what killed about 90% of the original continental America population was neither war not forced labor, but plagues, specially things like smallpox.
Look at our world. Now, take the ~5% death rate of COVID-19 and ramp it up to ~90%. Then, spread it about multiple diseases. There is a reason why in a lot of what is now USA civilization collapsed so hard that European explorers obnly found ghost towns. Hell, that is also the reason why Europeans went to Africa for slaves instead of abusing the local population.
So, how can bending help with that?
Look at our world. Now, take the ~5% death rate of COVID-19 and ramp it up to ~90%. Then, spread it about multiple diseases. There is a reason why in a lot of what is now USA civilization collapsed so hard that European explorers obnly found ghost towns. Hell, that is also the reason why Europeans went to Africa for slaves instead of abusing the local population.
So, how can bending help with that?