Remove ads

More Things in Heaven and Earth: gods, syncretism and comparative mythology in fiction

all fictions

all fictions

I hate you! (it's not against the rules!)
Location
Mons Regius
Pronouns
He/Him
So there was a discussion in the TYPE-MOON fanfic thread that derailed into a general conversation about the handling of the existence of multiple pantheons in one real life setting like in urban fantasy, especially pantheons that had some degrees of overlap of their gods over centuries of belief and how some works make use of syncretism, if they even aknowledge it at all.

So this is a general discussion for how syncretism is handled or how you would handle it.

The discussion quoted here, in case those involved want to contribute more:
Creticus said:
Makes grumbling noises about "Celtic pantheon."

It's as bad as "Native American pantheon."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Illariai said:
DxD has one of the weirdest variants of the 'multiple pantheon' thing I've seen in fiction. Odin and the fallen angel Azazel get along perfectly fine with reincarnated heroes from the past with connections to at least 2 more pantheons are running around.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
all fictions said:
Hang in there.

That's not what he is complaining about, he is saying "celtic pantheon" is a misnomer, because it would conflate together Irish, Welsh, and Gaul mythologies (and maybe others I forgot), when, while they share many traits and have certain figures in common, they do not really overlap and each have their own unique stories.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Name of Love said:
We should expect different pantheons would interact with one another regularly if they co-existed. In that sense, DxD is more realistic than things like Rick Riordan's books.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Creticus said:
I share The Name of Love's opinion on this. Real life religions were not shy about borrowing elements from their neighbors. In settings in which a wide range of mythology is true, there should be even more inter-mixing of various sorts, not least because there are a lot of mythological figures who would love that sort of thing.

With that said, there's a definite argument that can be had about where to draw the line when it comes to deciding which mythological figures are independent existences and which mythological figures are just different faces of one another. For example, is Yama the same as Yanluo and Enma? Likewise, is Asmodeus the same as Aeshma of the Bloody Mace?

There's a lot of fun that can be had by going with various interpretations, but generally speaking, lumping a huge collection of mythologies under the same label because of vague similarities is bad for a number of reasons that range from unfair treatment to a loss of narrative potential. The term "Celt" encompasses people who lived in places that range from the British Isles to Anatolia, meaning that as All Fictions pointed out, there isn't a single Celtic pantheon but rather a bunch of Celtic pantheons. In other words, there are clear similarities between Lugh Lamhfada and Lleu Llaw Gyffes, but at the end of the day, they're different figures with different stories.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Illariai said:
I realize a fair bit of that , and have some new tidbits to research at some point, but a big thing about how DxD is set up is so that pantheons can merge to some degree. The setting is VERY heavy on the Christian pantheon, but you have Odin and the 'Norse' pantheon, the reincarnation of Siegfried, Hercules, and Cao Cao. The reason God was so powerful is that all the faith of his religion went soly to him, resulting in a ludicrous amount of power.

Pantheons get weird because of how the faith given to them is divided, and things get shuffled a lot as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
all fictions said:
This is part of the reason why I find Campione! so bad (besides being harem trash I mean).

And I get how that might seem hypocritical as a fan of the Nasuverse, but Campione! really is worst than even the Nasuverse's wrong takes.

It's one thing to use syncretism in your story to have your gods have a variety of power, it's another thing entirely to shoehorn in how every myth is ripped off of another one like some half assed anthropologist. When King Arthur was Rama of all things and Lancelot was somehow an Amazon, you done fucked up.

(In fact the entire Arthurian myth in Campione! is so badly handled. If you wanted the Knights of the Round Table to be gods, even if it's a bad idea, at least have the decency to take from Welsh mythology or something European like other far fetched analysts. I would sooner accept King Arthur was a bear god like Mercury Artaius and Artio, or that Lancelot or Gawain or both were aspects of Lugh than this garbage.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Creticus said:
Speaking personally, I'm burned out on the whole "human faith empowers the gods" idea. It's cool in settings that run on consensual reality but much iffier in settings in which either all mythologies or even a wide range of mythologies are true. On top of that, it seems to me like a pretty arrogant attitude to take, which bothers me on a subconscious level.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Accelerator said:
And pretty unrealistic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Name of Love said:
I would honestly say that syncretism would be expected in a world where the different pantheons co-exist, but the various myths would not be 100% correct (as they are all mutually contradictory). If you don't like syncretism, Rick Riordan's books have it so that the different pantheons are separate (with the exception of the Greek and Roman ones) but they don't interact with one another at all. I don't think it's realistic though.

The major problem with Campione and light novels in general is that they don't really do the research on which myths are related to each other. Campione is a byproduct of that.



I do like Nasuverse, but it does bother me that their stuff runs on "belief makes gods real".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
all fictions said:
Honestly, I would say only American Gods did it right, because then you had things from the modern world of mass consumption being made into gods. And even then the "land" of America itself was the most powerful entity without being believed in.

It's not that I don't like it, it's that Campione abuses it and does it really badly. For example, I like the Dresden Files' take where powerful entity can wear multiple mantles and thus take on different roles, and Odin can be Santa Claus.

Except it doesn't, not exactly? There are gods that already existed as elementals of Gaia before humans knew them while others were aliens: what human beliefs did is shape them somewhat, not create them. Gilgamesh explains all of this in CCC and this is further explained in the Babylonia chapter of FGO.

This is like what happens to Heroic Spirits:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Name of Love said:
Okay then. I guess I misunderstood. How would you portray syncretism in a multi-pantheon setting? Maybe we could discuss that. I assume that you would use Dresden Files' take on having powerful entities take on multiple roles. If so, could you expand on that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Creticus said:
I'd go for a huge helping of uncertainty for the average mortal.

For example, Venus Victrix was a more martial than normal Venus who was popular with late Republican Roman conquerors who was sometimes suspected to have had connections to the love/war goddesses of the Near East. In a multi-pantheon setting, would she be a mantle of Aphrodite, a mantle of Ishtar, a mantle of more than one goddess, or an independent existence in her own right who was spun off of either one or more goddesses? For the average mortal, there should be no clear answer to these questions, meaning that there can be people who believe in each of these options and more besides without being willfully deluded about the "true" nature of the cosmos.

Of course, multi-pantheon settings tend to focus on people with special insight into the true nature of the cosmos rather than average mortals. However, I'd go with that special insight providing some answers but creating even more questions in the process. For example, one person might know that Yama is indeed the same figure as Yanluo and Enma, but they don't necessarily know much about what that actually means. Are Yama, Yanluo, and Enma just different names for the same figure, who is very, very overworked because of his obligations to multiple pantheons? Are Yama, Yanluo, and Enma separate instances of the same figure with separate roles in separate pantheons? If so, does that mean that Yanluo and Enma are instances spun off of Yama, meaning that they are in a sense, secondary to Yama? Alternatively, are Yama, Yanluo, and Enma emanations of a hypothetical supra-Yama? If so, does that stop there or can you take that conclusion further to support the idea that there is a single divine force acting throughout the whole of existence, who interacts with humanity through a profusion of personae that it dons and doffs at will?

Ultimately, I'm OK with the answers to the big questions in multi-pantheon setting being unknown to all mortals save perhaps the very wisest, which by default, means that they are probably not in the foreground of things. At best, the rest of us have to make do with approximations of the truth, though that doesn't mean that seeking truth isn't worth doing. On top of this, I don't mind if there are mutually contradictory statements being true at the same time. The sun is a big ball of gas and plasma, but at the same time, it is both Helios and Apollo in their respective chariots, both Huitzilopochtli and Tonatiuh being shepherded by Huitzilopochtli, as well as countless other things. That sounds pretty nonsensical for us, but gods being gods, they get to go beyond the current limits of human reasoning.

In other words, I like it when multi-pantheon settings have divinities who seem human, but past a certain point, I prefer it when it plays up the ineffability of those divinities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Name of Love said:
What I don't really see enough of in stories is the distinction made between God and gods. If you get right down to it, the gods of mythology are basically nothing more than cosmic superheroes. God as the ground for all rationality as the ancient Greeks mentioned rarely gets understood. That underlies my understanding of gods: they are essentially super-humans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Let's discuss!



The Name of Love said:
Okay then. I guess I misunderstood. How would you portray syncretism in a multi-pantheon setting? Maybe we could discuss that. I assume that you would use Dresden Files' take on having powerful entities take on multiple roles. If so, could you expand on that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I will need to mull more over this to give a proper response, but for starters, I would put some hard limits to how much you can make gods equivalent to one another, especially if they are more interesting as distinct entities.

Like, for example, Dyēus (or Dyḗus Ph2tḗr), believed to have been the chief deity of the proto Indo European religion, is assumed to have been the prototype of a wide ranging lists of "sky fathers" across Europe and Asia due to the etymological roots, a list which includes Zeus, Dionysus, Tyr, Thor, the Dagda, etc. The thing is, each of them have drifted way too much and thus are way more interesting as their individual selves instead of aspects of one being, so I would leave them out for example.
Creticus said:
Alternatively, are Yama, Yanluo, and Enma emanations of a hypothetical supra-Yama? If so, does that stop there or can you take that conclusion further to support the idea that there is a single divine force acting throughout the whole of existence, who interacts with humanity through a profusion of personae that it dons and doffs at will?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Maybe having all archetypes of gods (war gods, love goddesses, sky gods, earth goddesses, etc.) being Forms in the intelligible realm beyond the visible world? I mean, this makes Plato calling the realm of Forms "hyper-heaven" or "the place beyond heaven" take on a whole new meaning, so it would be thematically appropriate. I guess they could just be all part of the Idea of "the Divine" too, but I dunno, individual archetypes is more interesting to me.
 
Last edited:
all fictions said:
I will need to mull more over this to give a proper response, but for starters, I would put some hard limits to how much you can make gods equivalent to one another, especially if they are more interesting as distinct entities.

Like, for example, Dyēus (or Dyḗus Ph2tḗr), believed to have been the chief deity of the proto Indo European religion, is assumed to have been the prototype of a wide ranging lists of "sky fathers" across Europe and Asia due to the etymological roots, a list which includes Zeus, Dionysus, Tyr, Thor, the Dagda, etc. The thing is, each of them have drifted way too much and thus are way more interesting as their individual selves instead of aspects of one being, so I would leave them out for example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There is the idea of one deity being split into several others or one deity leaving a pantheon and joining another. Alternatively, you could have multiple deities take up the same roles and similar names in succession to one another, i.e. the name "Odin" being passed down over many generations.


Okay, so how would I personally handle syncretism? I would basically have the deities in different pantheons intermingling with each other. Toth and Hermes are drinking buddies. Aphrodite flirts with the Indian gods. The Japanese deities have a rivalry with the Chinese ones. Maybe there could be some inter-pantheon marriage going on. They would be indifferent to their modern worshippers, as it is not like anybody seriously believes they exist anymore. The gods are influenced by us somewhat, but only in that they react to the stuff humans create and adapt with the times, to an extent.
 
The Name of Love said:
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not a fan of the "belief = power" trope.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, like, what? You think Zeus would truly allow people to forget him? There'll be annual celebrations, where he goes across the world in a trail of hurricanes and blazing divine power, reminding all of his power. The celebration will be public, very public, and everyone in greece or rome would know of it. He would go to every town and.....

Well, there'll be an influx of demigods.

Basically, no way in hell would there be any new gods. Because if they're just starting, they'll be weak. And no one would allow competition to grow. Someone worships a god other than the greek pantheon? Smiting. Someone doesn't worship the celestial bureaucracy? Purging.
 
Accelerator said:
Yeah, like, what? You think Zeus would truly allow people to forget him? There'll be annual celebrations, where he goes across the world in a trail of hurricanes and blazing divine power, reminding all of his power. The celebration will be public, very public, and everyone in greece or rome would know of it. He would go to every town and.....

Well, there'll be an influx of demigods.

Basically, no way in hell would there be any new gods. Because if they're just starting, they'll be weak. And no one would allow competition to grow. Someone worships a god other than the greek pantheon? Smiting. Someone doesn't worship the celestial bureaucracy? Purging.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

One explanation would be that there are organizations (like some secret sect of the Catholic Church, for instance) that prohibit them. Perhaps the gods of different pantheons are at war against certain factions that represent non-paganistic religions.
 
The Name of Love said:
One explanation would be that there are organizations (like some secret sect of the Catholic Church, for instance) that prohibit them. Perhaps the gods of different pantheons are at war against certain factions that represent non-paganistic religions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, but.... well, Zeus could smash apart cities with his lightning bolts. Poseidon could overturn islands with his trident.

If the organization was made of mortals, and they prohibitted them, they'll be laughed at before being thrown into tartarus.
 
Accelerator said:
Yes, but.... well, Zeus could smash apart cities with his lightning bolts. Poseidon could overturn islands with his trident.

If the organization was made of mortals, and they prohibitted them, they'll be laughed at before being thrown into tartarus.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If that organization obtained help from something higher than the gods, like God himself, then that would have been more than sufficient to dethrone the gods.
 
Accelerator said:
Then we've gotten to something I really hate about urban fantasy.

That the Christian God is the one above all other religions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's because, objectively speaking, capital G God is the one above the lower-case g gods; he differs from then in kind, not in power or number. If you don't want it to be the specifically Christian conception of God, then perhaps another religion's concept of God would work just as well (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bantu Theology). Alternatively, God could belong to no religion in particular in your story.
 
The Name of Love said:
That's because, objectively speaking, capital G God is the one above the lower-case g gods; he differs from then in kind, not in power or number. If you don't want it to be the specifically Christian conception of God, then perhaps another religion's concept of God would work just as well (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bantu Theology). Alternatively, God could belong to no religion in particular in your story.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
.... sigh.

Problem. The fact that you capitalise it, and that this is in english already means that most people think that its the christian god.
 
What I'd like with synchretism (as portrayed in fiction) is for people to realize that trying to codify it is largely pointless and 'unnatural', there are different traditions with differing interpretations. I know we really like our LOTR inspired mold where the lore is nice and clean and above else, long but in real life there's usually many variations of things and spirits and deities on the local level.

The big example that I can bring up is the catch all term Voodoo. The Synchretic mixing of Catholicism and Yoruba traditional religion emphasizing the Orisha and various other spirits. But which one? There is Santeria, Lucumi, Traditional Yoruba secret societies, 21 Divisions, Louisiana Voodoo, etc- all are pretty valid and all have different traditions with different viewpoints. Its worth noting also the traditions are aware of others being different and don't fight that; instead they usually encourage different traditions. (Because they say if one isn't right for you, you could try out another)

When you want to mix pantheons and stuff, having different interpretations is fine, and I don't think writers should always aim to iron out every single kinks.

Accelerator said:
Then we've gotten to something I really hate about urban fantasy.

That the Christian God is the one above all other religions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's actually the case with a lot of real world synchretic faiths so there is basis in that. Take for instance my example of Voodoo. The Yoruba creator deity (and the most powerful one) is Olorun; he is synchretized with YHWH pretty nicely and functions as sort of a final arbitrator and overboss of everyone else, with the other spirits and gods as secondary yet still incredibly important.
 
Last edited:
Still, though, I'm interested in this.

If nothing else, for my campione crossover. So... any good sources?
 
Soverihn said:
What I'd like with synchretism (as portrayed in fiction) is for people to realize that trying to codify it is largely pointless and 'unnatural', there are different traditions with differing interpretations. I know we really like our LOTR inspired mold where the lore is nice and clean and above else, long but in real life there's usually many variations of things and spirits and deities on the local level.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes. You should keep in mind, however, the natural tendency for people to try to systematize things and put them into groups regardless of any gray areas, if only for the sake of convenience.


Accelerator said:
Still, though, I'm interested in this.

If nothing else, for my campione crossover. So... any good sources?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm sure we can create a list of sources for you.
 
Accelerator said:
Deities, myths, legends, heroes, and how they change and connect to one another.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thats really tough to do, because its very much a case by case basis. Like, the way Hercules became Nio is very different they way the Mansan Musas brought the old gods of Mali into regional saints people still prayed for protection.

You're better off studying a bit of general cultural anthropology first, and then looking into some examples for inspiration.
 
Soverihn said:
Thats really tough to do, because its very much a case by case basis. Like, the way Hercules became Nio is very different they way the Mansan Musas brought the old gods of Mali into regional saints people still prayed for protection.

You're better off studying a bit of general cultural anthropology first, and then looking into some examples for inspiration.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wait.

Nio.

Ain't that the giant buddhist statues?
 
all fictions said:
Maybe having all archetypes of gods (war gods, love goddesses, sky gods, earth goddesses, etc.) being Forms in the intelligible realm beyond the visible world?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's how the Doc Sidhe novels did it. There are "personas", which are your standard mythical gods with specific names and stories about them. And then there are "archetypes", which are composed of everything the personas have in common and have no personal names or associated myths.

Accelerator said:
Well, some dude on spacebattles brought this up.

"If gods' powers run on belief, and they are empowered by belief, how in the hell did they allow people to stop worshipping them?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's the explanation used in the novel The Logical Magician: the rise of monotheism meant that there were huge populations of people who didn't just not believe in other gods, but actively disbelieved in them. So just as belief created and empowered the gods, disbelief banished them.
 
Avernus said:
There's the explanation used in the novel The Logical Magician: the rise of monotheism meant that there were huge populations of people who didn't just not believe in other gods, but actively disbelieved in them. So just as belief created and empowered the gods, disbelief banished them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But how did those even start? I mean, the moment they start gaining traction, and the gods find themselves weakening, they will start smiting.

Hard to disbelieve in a god that's in front of you, killing you.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top