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Modern North Korea, Vietnam, and Cuba ISOTed to 1950

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Nyvis said:
Are you getting your numbers from the black book of communism? Because that's the only way you get those numbers. And the black book counts stuff like nazi soldiers as victims of communism (or more recently, covid deaths!?). So kindly get out with that nonsense.
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Nope.Authors was partially former leftists,which downsized number of commie victims.
From "The communist holocaust and its lessons for the 21th century" by Philip vander Elst.And Alexander Yakovlew estimated that Stalin alone genocided 60-70 millions.

P.S if you question numbers of victims killed by comrades Lenin,Stalin,Mao etc - then why not question numbers of victim of comrade Hitler,too ?
He was as good genocider as other leftist.
 
ATP said:
Nope.Authors was partially former leftists,which downsized number of commie victims.
From "The communist holocaust and its lessons for the 21th century" by Philip vander Elst.And Alexander Yakovlew estimated that Stalin alone genocided 60-70 millions.

P.S if you question numbers of victims killed by comrades Lenin,Stalin,Mao etc - then why not question numbers of victim of comrade Hitler,too ?
He was as good genocider as other leftist.
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Yeah I'm calling nonsense. The higher accepted estimate for the Holodomor is 12 millions. The purges are barely a drop in that bucket.

So it's likely it's counting nonense.
 
ATP said:
P.S if you question numbers of victims killed by comrades Lenin,Stalin,Mao etc - then why not question numbers of victim of comrade Hitler,too ?
He was as good genocider as other leftist.
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What the fuck are you talking about? Dude, Hitler literally had the closest thing the Nazis had to a left-wing killed during the Night of the Long Knives. He persecuted actual socialists and communists and attempted a truly massive campaign of extermination against the people of the Soviet Union.

He was not a leftist unless you're definition of leftism is the "government does stuff".
 
ATP said:
Nope.Authors was partially former leftists,which downsized number of commie victims.
From "The communist holocaust and its lessons for the 21th century" by Philip vander Elst.And Alexander Yakovlew estimated that Stalin alone genocided 60-70 millions.

P.S if you question numbers of victims killed by comrades Lenin,Stalin,Mao etc - then why not question numbers of victim of comrade Hitler,too ?
He was as good genocider as other leftist.
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That's half the population of the ussr at the time...
 
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful
Flectarn said:
That's half the population of the ussr at the time...
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King Washington said:
What the fuck are you talking about? Dude, Hitler literally had the closest thing the Nazis had to a left-wing killed during the Night of the Long Knives. He persecuted actual socialists and communists and attempted a truly massive campaign of extermination against the people of the Soviet Union.

He was not a leftist unless you're definition of leftism is the "government does stuff".
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1.Stalin ruled from 1928 to 1953.60 millions of victims means averagely 2,25 million per year.Soviet union had 170 millions of people.

2.No? he cared about german workers,made business part of state/they produced what was ordered,not what they wanted/ and cared about animals.He also do not eat meat.Fought against cigarettes.He made children property of state,and all must be in Hitlerjugend.
And hated Church,planning to get rid of it after he win war.
Ideal socialist,what do you want more?
 
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ATP said:
No? he cared about german workers,made business part of state/they produced what was ordered,not what they wanted/ and cared about animals.He also do not eat meat.Fought against cigarettes.He made children property of state,and all must be in Hitlerjugend.
And hated Church,planning to get rid of it after he win war.
Ideal socialist,what do you want more?
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That's way dumber than what I thought you were going to write, Jesus.
 
Flectarn said:
That's half the population of the ussr at the time...
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Ugh, it reminds me of the online death statistic Olympics I ran into some years back where people tried to preform over Vietnam war deaths which tended to add up to being greater than the existing population in north and south Vietnam at the time.

Actual death tolls from being being killed by American/south Vietnam forces and by the Vietcong and north Vietnamese forces or just from fleeing the region was bad enough you'd think people wouldn't need to inflate the numbers which is the same way I feel about the higher and lower estimated numbers of peoples killed by Stalin's actions be it from death squads, ethnic cleansing, the great purge, famines, forced labor camps and such are bad enough without people going for massive number inflations.
 
ATP said:
2.No? he cared about german workers
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He banned all the independent trade unions and replace them with the puppet German Labour Front.
ATP said:
and cared about animals.He also do not eat meat.Fought against cigarettes.He made children property of state,and all must be in Hitlerjugend.
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Absolutely none of these are inherently socialist ideas.
ATP said:
And hated Church,planning to get rid of it after he win war.
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Distrust of the Church isn't an inherently socialist idea as well. Also ever heard of Liberation Theology?
ATP said:
Ideal socialist,what do you want more?
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How about the workers owning the means of production or at the very least democratic self management of the workplace?
 
Like, just for the sake of anyone reading this thread, I don't think this guy has any interest in the ideological bent of Adolf Hitler or any intent to change his mind on his politics or the death toll of communist governments. I suspect he might be a pretty standard right-wing Polish guy who needed to come up with a reason why Hitler was bad and settled on "he's a communist!" because it means he doesn't have to ask himself why they share some beliefs. I could be entirely wrong, and I'm sorry if I am, but I've seen a few guys like him from Poland on the forum and they turned out to be pretty Yikes people.
 
I think you guys have started to go rather off topic for the threads conversation topic of a isot of several nations into 1950.
 
Cybandeath said:
I think you guys have started to go rather off topic for the threads conversation topic of a isot of several nations into 1950.
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I agree.

On topic, the following is a good point and merits discussion:
Pantegral said:
As far as US relations is concerned, Vietnam has a critical advantage that neither North Korea nor Cuba has: a fully-fledged American diplomatic presence. A Vietnamese diplomatic/scientific mission will be taken much more seriously by the downtime US if accompanied by the resident US ambassador and attendant embassy staff; and one of Vietnam Airlines' Boeing 787-9s can easily make a direct flight to the West Coast.
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Hopefully I'm not derailing this thread anymore than it already has but I was of the belief that Nazi Germany's fascism incorporated socialist policies that later evolved to being more pro-Aryan markets down the line?
 
ILostmyAccount said:
Hopefully I'm not derailing this thread anymore than it already has but I was of the belief that Nazi Germany's fascism incorporated socialist policies that later evolved to being more pro-Aryan markets down the line?
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From my understanding, it was only some people in the party who held the idea of quasi-Socialistic policies (and even then, never a real Socialism and were hostile to the actual Socialists), and they were all purged soon after the Nazis gained the government. They were also rather selective in which capitalists they decided to hate, as far as I know.

The Nazis, both their official policies and personal beliefs, were all very Right-wing.
 
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Terra Novan said:
From my understanding, it was only some people in the party who held the idea of quasi-Socialistic policies (and even then, never a real Socialism and were hostile to the actual Socialists), and they were all purged soon after the Nazis gained the government. They were also rather selective in which capitalists they decided to hate, as far as I know.

The Nazis, both their official policies and personal beliefs, were all very Right-wing.
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Wasn't production nationalized under Nazism? And I agree that they were selective in their hatred of capitalists (that's why I mentioned them being pro-"Aryan" market/business).

I'm also of the understanding that Hitler himself had mentioned being socialist in some of his writings, though that may have been posturing to an extent.
 
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ILostmyAccount said:
Wasn't production nationalized under Nazism? And I agree that they were selective in their hatred of capitalists (that's why I mentioned them being pro-"Aryan").
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Nope. With the exception of few sectors essential for war, the Nazis were happy to let private businesses run amok and illegalized the labor unions to help that.

I think it was one of the causes of Nazi Germany's logistical problems.
 
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Pantegral said:
As far as US relations is concerned, Vietnam has a critical advantage that neither North Korea nor Cuba has: a fully-fledged American diplomatic presence. A Vietnamese diplomatic/scientific mission will be taken much more seriously by the downtime US if accompanied by the resident US ambassador and attendant embassy staff; and one of Vietnam Airlines' Boeing 787-9s can easily make a direct flight to the West Coast.
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So quick question: what ethnicity and sex are the ambassador and their staff? Because I feel like that could be a point of conflict within the USA at the time of arrival.

Not trying to piss anyone off, just acknowledging the fact that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is 14 years away at the moment, and from what I've read women usually wouldnt have as prominent a role in the government at that point in time.
 
Admittedly there was at least one major US female diplomatic figure, Elanor Roosevelt who was a delegate to the UN general assembly and a member and chairman of the UN commission on Human Rights in the late 1940s and early 1950s as for the current ambassador to Vietnam I believe that would be Daniel Krittenbrink.
 
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