Modern Day Portugal transported to 1936 (outbreak of the Spanish Civil War)

[Murazor]

So what is the lesser of two evils here that Portugal can end up with, a Republican victory and maybe it turning into s Soviet puppet state in the future ore a Nationalist victory like OTL ore could we have a third option with a Portuguese involvement in the Spanish civil War with them doing the Royalist route with them trying to restore the monarchy.

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That would be a stupid idea.

The best that can be said of Alfonso XIII is that he was a corrupt incompetent and the monarchists are more or less universally reactionary hyperconservatives.

Much easier to try to unfuck the Republic, which is not foreordained to become a sockpuppet of the Supreme Soviet, as long as there is someone around who doesn't furiously backstab Spain the way France and, very particularly, Great Britain did historically.

 

[ATP]

So what is the lesser of two evils here that Portugal can end up with, a Republican victory and maybe it turning into s Soviet puppet state in the future ore a Nationalist victory like OTL ore could we have a third option with a Portuguese involvement in the Spanish civil War with them doing the Royalist route with them trying to restore the monarchy.

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Unfortunatelly,monarchist fought each others - carlist and some other faction.You must united them first.Carlist was actually very good fighters - in 1936 they pulled off some impossible victories against republican forces.
Mainly becouse republican before war started murder catholics - so carlist,as catholics,fought to the end,becouse republicans would murder them anyway.Logical approach.

 

[Kahing]

The main impact of this ISOT is going to be the "future knowledge" Portugal has to offer. In immediate terms it will affect the Spanish Civil War, long term everything from World War II to the Cold War up to today is radically different.

 

[Kahing]

This thread has just given me the horrific thought regarding what would happen if the UK went back.

A Royal Navy without the numbers of ships required, smaller industrial production, Farage, Boris Johnson, Rees-Mogg. The fucking EDL (far right something group).

That might even cause a loose condition Jesus Christ.

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The UK still has nukes, and what military equipment it has is nearly untouchable by 1936 standards. The RN and RAF can set the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe years back without loss to themselves.

oh my, there wouldn't be Israel.
I want to sounds neutral on this bit, objective even, as most of the leadership that would form Israel was from the 1936!UK. With them gone, Palestine would be have to be given all to Arabs.

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Um, what? Where did you get this info from? I'm sorry but that is wildly inaccurate.

 

[JustBukharin]

Um, what? Where did you get this info from? I'm sorry but that is wildly inaccurate.

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The source of the info is history itself: The first president of Israel was Chaim Weizmann, a powerful member of the British Zionists circle. Since Britain had control of the Mandate of Palestine from 1919-1920 to 1948, the British Jewish Community, which was in amiable terms with the Conservative Party (E.G. Balfour Declaration, by Arthur Balfour, Conservative MP) was able to gain a political foothold over the control of Israel. With a modern Britain replacing the 1936, there wouldn't be a Chaim Weizmann and powerful Zionist community, thus the eventual state born out of Palestine would be a single one, with a special UN government leading it on its first years.

 

[Kahing]

The source of the info is history itself: The first president of Israel was Chaim Weizmann, a powerful member of the British Zionists circle. Since Britain had control of the Mandate of Palestine from 1919-1920 to 1948, the British Jewish Community, which was in amiable terms with the Conservative Party (E.G. Balfour Declaration, by Arthur Balfour, Conservative MP) was able to gain a political foothold over the control of Israel. With a modern Britain replacing the 1936, there wouldn't be a Chaim Weizmann and powerful Zionist community, thus the eventual state born out of Palestine would be a single one, with a special UN government leading it on its first years.

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Except the President of Israel is largely ceremonial with only some real power. The main power is vested in the Prime Minister, and the first Prime Minister of Israel was David Ben-Gurion, who had immigrated to Palestine (or Ottoman Southern Syria as it was known at the time) in 1906, and he was already leader of the Yishuv, or Jewish population of Palestine, in 1936. Lots of other future Israeli leaders were already in Mandate Palestine in 1936.

By 1936 there was already a Jewish state-within-a-state in Palestine. The Yishuv was growing and already had a population of about 384k. It had it's own secret underground army, the Haganah, as well as it's own government, healthcare system, education system, and economy.

Also, Britain began reversing it's pro-Zionist policies as a result of an Arab rebellion that broke out in 1936 and in 1939 it imposed heavy restrictions on Jewish immigration and announced it would create a single Arab-majority state. It even went as far as to try to prevent Jews fleeing the Holocaust from reaching Palestine. At the end of the war it continued in it's policies and it's there were serious proposals for a binational Arab-majority state, and as a result the British faced growing Jewish insurgent attacks (or terrorist attacks as they called them) until they withdrew. Britain found it harder to hold onto Palestine with stuff like this going on all the time:

Night of the Bridges - Wikipedia

Night of the Beatings - Wikipedia

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

Acre Prison break - Wikipedia

The Sergeants affair - Wikipedia

 

[JustBukharin]

Except the President of Israel is largely ceremonial with only some real power. The main power is vested in the Prime Minister, and the first Prime Minister of Israel was David Ben-Gurion, who had immigrated to Palestine (or Ottoman Southern Syria as it was known at the time) in 1906, and he was already leader of the Yishuv, or Jewish population of Palestine, in 1936. Lots of other future Israeli leaders were already in Mandate Palestine in 1936.

By 1936 there was already a Jewish state-within-a-state in Palestine. The Yishuv was growing and already had a population of about 384k. It had it's own secret underground army, the Haganah, as well as it's own government, healthcare system, education system, and economy.

Also, Britain began reversing it's pro-Zionist policies as a result of an Arab rebellion that broke out in 1936 and in 1939 it imposed heavy restrictions on Jewish immigration and announced it would create a single Arab-majority state. It even went as far as to try to prevent Jews fleeing the Holocaust from reaching Palestine. At the end of the war it continued in it's policies and it's there were serious proposals for a binational Arab-majority state, and as a result the British faced growing Jewish insurgent attacks (or terrorist attacks as they called them) until thy withdrew. Britain found it harder to hold onto Palestine with stuff like this going on all the time:

Night of the Bridges - Wikipedia

Night of the Beatings - Wikipedia

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

Acre Prison break - Wikipedia

The Sergeants affair - Wikipedia

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If 1936!UK is swapped with the present time one, those issues would matter very little. Knowing how history went bloody by allowing a full-fledged israeli nation to exist against the wishes of the rest of arab people living in the area (that is why there had been some step backs in favor of restoring stability in the region) and with the lack of major supporters (the only ones remaining being part of old banker family which might or might have not been in the UK during the switch), Israel by force couldn't be formed. In essence: due to the situation unfavorable and the introduction of a more democratic UK in the big picture, a more peaceful settlement would be a possible result. Of course people would still rebel and try to overcome the other side but modern UK wouldn't accept half-assed compromises about the matter.

 

[Kahing]

If 1936!UK is swapped with the present time one, those issues would matter very little. Knowing how history went bloody by allowing a full-fledged israeli nation to exist against the wishes of the rest of arab people living in the area (that is why there had been some step backs in favor of restoring stability in the region) and with the lack of major supporters (the only ones remaining being part of old banker family which might or might have not been in the UK during the switch), Israel by force couldn't be formed. In essence: due to the situation unfavorable and the introduction of a more democratic UK in the big picture, a more peaceful settlement would be a possible result. Of course people would still rebel and try to overcome the other side but modern UK wouldn't accept half-assed compromises about the matter.

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It depends. The Yishuv might or might not still be able to create a nation by force once the British are gone. You can't assume stability by royally pissing off one side at the expense of another.

 

[JustBukharin]

It depends. The Yishuv might or might not still be able to create a nation by force once the British are gone. You can't assume stability by royally pissing off one side at the expense of another.

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It isn't about being able or not to create a nation, but to be able to survive the implications of breaking free. In a period where imperialism is still strong, Israel being created this soon would put not only Britain, but also France and other colonial empires in jeopardy as every other colonial people would take Israel's example to break free and collapse half of the world. This wouldn't be a pleasant development with Nazis and USSR still lurking around the corner and UK would take drastic options to avoid that.

 

[lordhen]

Portugal Army is modern, also it seems that they have at least 134 M60 Pattons in storage, i think those together with the active M60s (14) in total and 38 Leopard 2A6 can kill anything that is rolling in 1936.

 

[Kahing]

It isn't about being able or not to create a nation, but to be able to survive the implications of breaking free. In a period where imperialism is still strong, Israel being created this soon would put not only Britain, but also France and other colonial empires in jeopardy as every other colonial people would take Israel's example to break free and collapse half of the world. This wouldn't be a pleasant development with Nazis and USSR still lurking around the corner and UK would take drastic options to avoid that.

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Except imperialism is doomed and everyone now knows it. There's also the fact that whether Israel or the Arabs doesn't matter. If the UK leaves Palestine that in itself is an example either way. There's also the fact that future knowledge gives plenty of opportunities to kick the Nazis and the USSR in the teeth before they are serious threats.

 

[Sabertooth]

Portugal Army is modern, also it seems that they have at least 134 M60 Pattons in storage, i think those together with the active M60s (14) in total and 38 Leopard 2A6 can kill anything that is rolling in 1936.

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We still have about30 or so M48´s mothballed, although the state they are in is debatable presently, but they should be easy to replicate/build. Honestly, throwing Leos at 1936 era tanks is a waste of fuel and parts. Not to mention the Patton series is still mostly mechanical and doens´t has nowhere near the high tech gear the Leo has, thus making it easy to repair and replicate, even if the most complex systems have to be dumbed down due to our industrial base.

Even if we can't build tanks, we have at least the industrial base to build wheleed AFVs and even a 90mm armed 4 wheeled Chaimite (locally built copy of the Cadillac armored car) is gonna wreck any 1936 era tank it comes across.

 

[brmj]

We still have about30 or so M48´s mothballed, although the state they are in is debatable presently, but they should be easy to replicate/build. Honestly, throwing Leos at 1936 era tanks is a waste of fuel and parts. Not to mention the Patton series is still mostly mechanical and doens´t has nowhere near the high tech gear the Leo has, thus making it easy to repair and replicate, even if the most complex systems have to be dumbed down due to our industrial base.

Even if we can't build tanks, we have at least the industrial base to build wheleed AFVs and even a 90mm armed 4 wheeled Chaimite (locally built copy of the Cadillac armored car) is gonna wreck any 1936 era tank it comes across.

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If the goal is just killing a 30s tank, any tank is a waste of fuel most of the time. The role of armor in this context is being hard to kill with period tanks and infantry gear, and if all goes well, tanks can be cheaply demolished from the air with impunity.

 

[lordhen]

We still have about30 or so M48´s mothballed, although the state they are in is debatable presently, but they should be easy to replicate/build. Honestly, throwing Leos at 1936 era tanks is a waste of fuel and parts. Not to mention the Patton series is still mostly mechanical and doens´t has nowhere near the high tech gear the Leo has, thus making it easy to repair and replicate, even if the most complex systems have to be dumbed down due to our industrial base.

Even if we can't build tanks, we have at least the industrial base to build wheleed AFVs and even a 90mm armed 4 wheeled Chaimite (locally built copy of the Cadillac armored car) is gonna wreck any 1936 era tank it comes across.

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Well a Chaimite II version of the original Chaimite would be a excellent Light Armoured Vehicle, together with the Pandur (called the m/07 in Portuguese service) and which was also licence produced in Portugal you have excelent light infantry force.

 

[ATP]

We still have about30 or so M48´s mothballed, although the state they are in is debatable presently, but they should be easy to replicate/build. Honestly, throwing Leos at 1936 era tanks is a waste of fuel and parts. Not to mention the Patton series is still mostly mechanical and doens´t has nowhere near the high tech gear the Leo has, thus making it easy to repair and replicate, even if the most complex systems have to be dumbed down due to our industrial base.

Even if we can't build tanks, we have at least the industrial base to build wheleed AFVs and even a 90mm armed 4 wheeled Chaimite (locally built copy of the Cadillac armored car) is gonna wreck any 1936 era tank it comes across.

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Even if somebody made decent tank,you could just fight in night - that would be one-side massacre,even if enemy somehow made tons of T.34 or Pz4./in 1936 impossible,bet let say,that they did it/