Making A Game Unwinnable

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So this was something I mainly associate with various 90s adventure games but it might be in more stuff back then. Gamers had the power to fuck up certain quests or use items incorrectly and thus they could never beat the game in that run.

My questions are:
1. Are there any games made now that have it so you the Player can render the game unwinnable through your actions?
2. Should that even be a thing? Do you think game designers allowing that is a mark for or against them?
 
Well not so much unwinnable, but there's Mass Effect 2 where if you don't upgrade your ship, do not have squad loyalty, and uf you make all the wrong decisions in the final mission everyone dies including Shepard. Technically though you still succeed. But you also can't import that file into ME3.
 
Kings Quest games wouldn't just make the game unwinnable, they would make situations where minute choices will doom you to die a significant chunk of the game into the future. All the while you're also dying at every turn and trying to figure aggravantingly nonsensical puzzles.

Until games like the LucasArts ones came along being an adventure game fan was a sad and painful existence.
 
Mass Effect series has a lot of good examples, but Mass Effect 3 has a lot of choices where if you don't have a high enough readiness level, shit goes to hell in an express elevator, there's one line of choices that destroys most of the life in the galaxy because instead of an energy pulse the mass relays actually detonated in supernova scale explosions.
 
I mean, from a certain perspective any game with a 'lives' system that punted you all the way back to the beginning if you ran out could count.

There's also autosave-only games that by bad design autosave you right before you die, so when it brings you back to that save you... yeah.

VNs in general tend to things similar to this. A bad build in Long Live The Queen will screw you over if you don't have regularly spaced saves to fall back on.
 
Also Frostpunk while it's pretty good about letting you be able to pull yourself from the brink has certain situations where if you end up in them you're basically fucked. The big one is ending up with a medical bottleneck where you have loads of untreated sick, in that situation even making more infirmaries or medical tents might not be able to step the tide unless you really spam them. That WILL cause a cascade failure of your entire fucking city if people just keep getting sick while medics are bogged down.

You're also not playing the game correctly if you aren't incredibly paranoid about having enough coal infrastructure to make up for increases in consumption at literally all times.
 
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2. Should that even be a thing? Do you think game designers allowing that is a mark for or against them?
I mean, in general any game design where it actually becomes impossible, by designer intention (as opposed to eg game breaking bug which is also not good but a different topic), to win, without actually losing in short order, as a regular, intentional occurrence, is bad.

That's a lot of qualifiers, but it kinda needs them.

Some game designs, such as, for example, a lot of competitive designs, may have you reach a point where realistically you've already lost without the game declaring you defeated per se. As an example, a lot of real time strategy games can have your infrastructure wrecked to the point of being unable to recover without it meeting the conditions for defeat per se. This is basically fine, as long as the match isn't likely to be significantly drawn out after it's reached its effective conclusion. As another example, a lot of RPGs can have you in a position where it's not longer possible to win the battle, but the game still needs to go through a few turns killing you off.

A big part of what these scenarios have going for them, though, is that they are the emergent consequence of the situation and not something that can be easily addressed. For example, if your RTS would declare a player dead when they lost all construction buildings, without needing to lose their units or other buildings, you could see cases where each players army starts destroying the others base, and because one was slightly quicker at taking out the buildings that keep their foe in play, even though they had the weaker army they won. This can be acceptable, of course, but the point is that this kind of hole in the design space isn't actually easily closed.

(By a similar token, most fighting games have it strictly always possible for a player to make a come from behind win, but realistically if you are sufficiently far behind in health it probably won't happen, due to the need to go from being consistently outplayed by your opponent to consistently outplaying them.)

The kind of situation you are explicitly describing, meanwhile, is often something that could be easily closed up without harm to the design, or even is entirely intentional and required manual effort on the developer's part to create. A lot of older point and click adventure games require you to do specific things in early scenes or else you'll later on, without explanation or warning, be unable to actually keep going, even though the game will equally refuse to declare you as having lost. There will be, by intentional design, no backup option, no solution if you do make the wrong choice, etc.

Sometimes it'll be more innocuous, like dropping a quest item in a place you can't return to, where this ideally shouldn't have been possible but it's not clear that the developer did anything worse than overlook that risk, but the kind of design where you can do things like kill off plot critical NPCs, the game provides no alternate way to reach a culmination of the plot without them, and then it also doesn't do anything to kill you off or whatever, where you just wind up in what amounts to a softlock situation, by design? That's straight up bad design. Regardless of whether it's because of 'realism' or 'player choice' or whatever, there should never be a situation where the game is still going and you can't actually reach an end state at all.
 
Morrowind let you kill plot-critical NPCs, but at least it was nice enough to give you a warning about what you've done.
This is not enough to lose. To lose you need to kill much more, destroy the valuable artifacts needed to complete the game and so on. Formally, you can complete the game without actually knowing about the main quest.
 
I mean, in general any game design where it actually becomes impossible, by designer intention (as opposed to eg game breaking bug which is also not good but a different topic), to win, without actually losing in short order, as a regular, intentional occurrence, is bad.

That's a lot of qualifiers, but it kinda needs them.

Some game designs, such as, for example, a lot of competitive designs, may have you reach a point where realistically you've already lost without the game declaring you defeated per se. As an example, a lot of real time strategy games can have your infrastructure wrecked to the point of being unable to recover without it meeting the conditions for defeat per se. This is basically fine, as long as the match isn't likely to be significantly drawn out after it's reached its effective conclusion. As another example, a lot of RPGs can have you in a position where it's not longer possible to win the battle, but the game still needs to go through a few turns killing you off.

A big part of what these scenarios have going for them, though, is that they are the emergent consequence of the situation and not something that can be easily addressed. For example, if your RTS would declare a player dead when they lost all construction buildings, without needing to lose their units or other buildings, you could see cases where each players army starts destroying the others base, and because one was slightly quicker at taking out the buildings that keep their foe in play, even though they had the weaker army they won. This can be acceptable, of course, but the point is that this kind of hole in the design space isn't actually easily closed.

(By a similar token, most fighting games have it strictly always possible for a player to make a come from behind win, but realistically if you are sufficiently far behind in health it probably won't happen, due to the need to go from being consistently outplayed by your opponent to consistently outplaying them.)

The kind of situation you are explicitly describing, meanwhile, is often something that could be easily closed up without harm to the design, or even is entirely intentional and required manual effort on the developer's part to create. A lot of older point and click adventure games require you to do specific things in early scenes or else you'll later on, without explanation or warning, be unable to actually keep going, even though the game will equally refuse to declare you as having lost. There will be, by intentional design, no backup option, no solution if you do make the wrong choice, etc.

Sometimes it'll be more innocuous, like dropping a quest item in a place you can't return to, where this ideally shouldn't have been possible but it's not clear that the developer did anything worse than overlook that risk, but the kind of design where you can do things like kill off plot critical NPCs, the game provides no alternate way to reach a culmination of the plot without them, and then it also doesn't do anything to kill you off or whatever, where you just wind up in what amounts to a softlock situation, by design? That's straight up bad design. Regardless of whether it's because of 'realism' or 'player choice' or whatever, there should never be a situation where the game is still going and you can't actually reach an end state at all.

Agreed.

For example, games like XCom, or some Fire Emblem games, due to permanent loss of units/items, can wind up with you in a situation where you're dead, you just don't know it yet.

Trying to figure out how to rectify that frustrating loss state, however, is nontrivial.
 
I just watched a video on a bunch of games that were designed and released in an unwinniable state. XD
 
Halo Reach ? The whole game is about an unwinnable battle, watching as your squad dies one by one. The final level is literally an unwinnable level where the player is pitted against never ending waves of enemy reinforcements until he dies.
 
Halo Reach ? The whole game is about an unwinnable battle, watching as your squad dies one by one. The final level is literally an unwinnable level where the player is pitted against never ending waves of enemy reinforcements until he dies.
There's a distinct difference between something like Doctor Mario that is 'game continues until player loses' and a game where there is an actual win state you can simply lock yourself out of. A survival sort of game is not the same thing as a game with the ability to render it unwinnable.
 
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I recall hearing about a game where you had to throw something to save a mouse in the Opening Cinematic or the game would become unprogressible several hours in.

It's very easy to not realize you can actually act during the opening cinematic.

a lot of those old adventure or puzzle games were awful like that.
 
So this was something I mainly associate with various 90s adventure games but it might be in more stuff back then. Gamers had the power to fuck up certain quests or use items incorrectly and thus they could never beat the game in that run.

My questions are:
1. Are there any games made now that have it so you the Player can render the game unwinnable through your actions?
2. Should that even be a thing? Do you think game designers allowing that is a mark for or against them?

Games that can be rendered unwinnable without signposting that failure state more or less immediately (which is most easily done by ending the game on failure) are badly designed.

The player is presumably intending to progress towards the ending win-state of the game, whatever that is. The player, therefore, doesn't want to realize five hours on that they've just wasted five hours trying to struggle through a game that they can't recover from. The idea of allowing games to be stuck in a prolonged unwinnable state comes from the extremely common conflation of punishment-how harshly a mistake is punished-with challenge-how easy it is to get punished for a mistake. Therefore most of the time games with unwinnable states also are designed to be extremely challenging as a result, so you get an extremely bad experience (like XCOM's Long War mod)-the game is extremely unforgiving to any mistakes you might make, and the game also demands a level of expertise that makes it very easy for players to make mistakes.
 
I doubt it was actually unwinnable but I have very strong memories of a 4 disc educational ancient egypt game which was like Myst meets... I don't even know what. What I mostly remember is my father and I literally spending months trying to get through this section where you're wandering around in the desert at night with no directions and have to find one specific tomb where Anubis unlocks the second disk after you do a puzzle/quiz, and then the second disk opened with a puzzle involving a water clock that was just the worst.

In terms of more modern games, nuXCOM has a number of ways the game becomes unwinnable if you fuck up in particular ways, and while any build can theoretically beat Dark Souls (as several people have proved), if you aren't up to it it can quickly become an exercise in frustration.
 
I think games can be made more interesting by allowing the player to miss something crucial, and letting them try to scrape by anyway. However, you should at least nudge the player before they miss something, rather than letting them believe all is well before suddenly ruining their experience.

Pathologic 2 does this. Crucial events that can be missed are surrounded by hinting warnings.
 
The Infocom game of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy can be rendered unwinnable in the first 5 turns, and you wouldn't know it until the end.
Basically, you need just one of a set of items right at the end to win the game. You need to collect them over the course of the entire game, and if you are missing even one, that'll be the one you need.
 
I recall in the X-Files FMV game, failing to take a picture of a car's number plate meant you couldn't progress at all and the game gave no indication of it.
 
Also Frostpunk while it's pretty good about letting you be able to pull yourself from the brink has certain situations where if you end up in them you're basically fucked. The big one is ending up with a medical bottleneck where you have loads of untreated sick, in that situation even making more infirmaries or medical tents might not be able to step the tide unless you really spam them. That WILL cause a cascade failure of your entire fucking city if people just keep getting sick while medics are bogged down.

You're also not playing the game correctly if you aren't incredibly paranoid about having enough coal infrastructure to make up for increases in consumption at literally all times.

True. But this is also the entire point of Frostpunk. Mistakes in that game are punished brutally by design. Thus why total play time for each scenario is actually relatively short.

The idea of allowing games to be stuck in a prolonged unwinnable state comes from the extremely common conflation of punishment-how harshly a mistake is punished-with challenge-how easy it is to get punished for a mistake. Therefore most of the time games with unwinnable states also are designed to be extremely challenging as a result, so you get an extremely bad experience (like XCOM's Long War mod)-the game is extremely unforgiving to any mistakes you might make, and the game also demands a level of expertise that makes it very easy for players to make mistakes.

Again, I think this kind of game can be okay. With the caveat that it has to be built around that brutality. Short play sessions and short total level/scenario play time so that the player is encouraged to experiment and game competence rapidly rather than investing in trying to salvage themselves from a death spiral.
 
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Pikasprey has a bunch of videos on how to lock yourself into being unable to progress in a bunch of Pokemon games.

What you can conclude from these videos is that, even in the original games which were riddled with bugs and design mistakes, it's pretty hard to completely lock yourself out of being unable to progress at all. You'll need to deliberately throw away all your cash, release all the Pokemon you can except for one hyper-specific Pokemon, and even then you might be able to progress if you get lucky enough.
 
In X-Com - Terror From The Deep the developers tried to make the tech tree much more complicated than the rather linear tech tree of the old X-Com. They did succeed in doing this, but have also introduced a lot of bugs in the process that can prevent you from completing the game: A large portion of the research can be cut off by researching the aliens in the incorrect sequence. For example, if you research a live Deep One Terrorist before getting Ion Armor you can't get the advanced submarines, which means you can't get to T'leth and win the game. Some copies of the game also don't recognize the Tasoth Commander and researching him can lock you out of these techs as well. Selling off some items before completing their prerequisite techs can lock you out of reseaching these items as well. Which is really bad if you don't get the 'sub construction' tech item, which is required for the advanced submarines.
 
An intentional one: A few years ago, in an interview the lead designer of NBA Jam (1993), one of the most profitable coin-operated arcade games of all time, admitted in an interview with ESPN Magazine , that he had rigged the game to make it difficult for the Chicago Bulls to win close games against Detroit:

Did Scottie Pippen's ratings in the game really drop when he played certain teams?

It's true, but only when the Bulls played the Pistons. If there was a close game and anyone on the Bulls took a last second shot, we wrote special code in the game so that they would average out to be bricks. There was the big competition back in the day between the Pistons and the Bulls, and since I was always a big Pistons fan, that was my opportunity to level the playing field.
 
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