Remove ads

Live in Infamy

Reader mode
Maugan Ra said:
The original AP made the fairly classic mistake of making a villain smarter than the writer and then actually specifying exactly what he says and does. In my experience it usually takes players about twenty seconds to spot some pretty glaring flaws and/or loopholes in the text of the contract as presented in the text. So yes, I'm modifying it a little.



You could get Thorn to agree to recognise Valka and her descendants as the rightful rulers of the newly formed realm, but the only way he could make her the monarch would be to use military and magical force to compel the homage of the Dwarves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

... Any chance you can tell anyone what the AP's original Contract looked like?

I mean, I already identified at least one possible critical loophole, and this is apparently a clevered up version? How awful was the original version?
 
As much as I like peoples "Become the dark empress of dwarf kind" energy.

Is that even slightly wise? Or feasible?

How would our own people even react to making a deal like this?

Alectai said:
I notice that there's no clause stopping him or punishing him for just "Your usefulness is at its end" at the end.

After all, not a single clause in that punishes them from just having Valka killed once they've gotten what they wanted.

There is also, strictly, no protection against him making an order that goes against his interests, and thus catching you in a catch 22. Because there is no "Knowingly" clause in that contract. You are Required to obey his orders. You are also Required not to work against his interests. He can intentionally give you an order against his best interests and then punish you for breaching the contract if you either refuse him or do it.

It's Asmodeus. He will adhere to the Letter of any contract he enforces. But those Contracts will always be tilted in such a way that if you just take them at face value, he Will take advantage of it to exploit a loophole to get everything he wants and not need to give anything in return. It's just his nature. Of course, if you're clever enough to catch the loopholes and close them in advance, he's perfectly willing to uphold his end--that's part of the Game as far as he's concerned, and if you play it well, he'll absolutely be a staunch ally.

He's a dick, but he's a dick that you can be Absolutely Certain won't help burn the planet down, if only because he keeps fun stuff here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If anyone is going to appreciate sitting down and knocking out pages of obscure legal minutae it would be an asmodian priest.

Hell (heh) that would be a great way to earn some brownie points if you are up for writing that in.
 
zxzx24 said:
As much as I like peoples "Become the dark empress of dwarf kind" energy.

Is that even slightly wise? Or feasible?

How would our own people even react to making a deal like this?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Some would hate us, some would cheer us on, some would grumble about it in public while privately wishing they'd had the idea first. Beyond that, probably depends on how bloody the coup is.
 
Alectai said:
... Any chance you can tell anyone what the AP's original Contract looked like?

I mean, I already identified at least one possible critical loophole, and this is apparently a clevered up version? How awful was the original version?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
THE PACT OF THORNS
Behold on this day __________ in the eighth age of this world a perpetual Compact is made between Cardinal Adrastus Thorn (hereafter the Master) and those who would be bound to him as his acolytes (hereafter the Bound). Both the Master and the Bound shall hold fast and true to this Compact through all trial and tribulation. By blood and soul the Bound commit to the Compact and swear that it shall never be undone.

The Bound shall know and understand the Four Loyalties.

The First Loyalty is to their patron and god – mighty Asmodeus, first among the fallen, prince of the nine hells, our father below. They shall do all that can be done to further his worship and his glory.

The Second Loyalty is to their master – He who is called the Cardinal Adrastus Thorn, High Priest of Asmodeus in Talingarde. They shall do the Master no harm and obey his every commandment as long as those commandments do not clash with their First Loyalty.

The Third Loyalty is to their companions – the other Bound who serve alongside them. The Bound shall deal with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so does not clash with their first or second loyalties. All treasure, wealth and reward garnered in their exploits will be equally shared with all of the Bound who aided in its acquisition.

The Fourth Loyalty is to themselves – for Asmodeus is the Lord of Ambition and all who serve him should strive to become great and powerful in his service as long as doing so does not clash with their first, second or third loyalties. By their weakness, ye shall know the Unworthy.

The Bound swear that they cleave to and uphold the Four Loyalties even in the face of death and damnation.

The Master swears that as long as the Four Loyalties are upheld, he shall reward the Bound as they deserve for their deeds.

Thus it is written, and thus it shall be.

We being of sound mind and free will do so swear and let they who violates this Compact know all the wrath of Hell unending.

Signed,
________________________
 
Maugan Ra said:
The room is beautifully appointed in the old Barcan style, filled with dark wooden furniture and sumptuous brocade tapestry. In the middle of it all, a tall human in long dark robes sits behind a desk, hairless save for thick black eyebrows and a neatly trimmed beard. He smiles at you when you enter, and his dark eyes twinkle with some hidden mirth.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...

Lads, I think this might be a bad guy.

Maugan Ra said:
"Compared to breaking its mistress out of Branderscar, it was no great trial," your benefactor says humbly, "A few questions, a discrete bribe, a theft - it was going to be auctioned off, as are most things that belong to those condemned as Forsaken, but I felt paying for it would have been a poor way to begin."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I do like his priorities though.

"I may be a mindcontrolling tyrant in service to the Lord of Hell, but I draw the line at rewarding cops for their ill-gotten gains."
 
Woltaire said:
@Maugan Ra what mountian chains were the mountian chain that used to contain the most powerful dwarven holds or had dwarves in them...or does this apply to all the mountian ranges?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The original homeland and core territories of the Dwarves of old were in the Ansgar mountains. If you look at the map of the nation in the first post, that's the range that runs from the Borderlands down to the south east, passing between Daveryn and Ghastenhall, and terminating a bit to the west of Branderscar.

There were notable dwarf settlements in many others places, but the Ansgar mountains were the oldest, richest and most culturally significant.

Alectai said:
... Any chance you can tell anyone what the AP's original Contract looked like?

I mean, I already identified at least one possible critical loophole, and this is apparently a clevered up version? How awful was the original version?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Behold on this day __________ in the eighth age
of this world a perpetual Compact is made between Cardinal
Adrastus Thorn (hereafter the Master) and those
who would be bound to him as his acolytes (hereafter
the Bound). Both the Master and the Bound shall
hold fast and true to this Compact through all trial and
tribulation. By blood and soul the Bound commit to the
Compact and swear that it shall never be undone.

The Bound shall know and understand the Four Loyalties.

The First Loyalty is to their patron and god – mighty
Asmodeus, first among the fallen, prince of the nine
hells, our father below. They shall do all that can be
done to further his worship and his glory.

The Second Loyalty is to their master – He who is
called the Cardinal Adrastus Thorn, High Priest of Asmodeus
in Talingarde. They shall do the Master no harm
and obey his every commandment as long as those commandments
do not clash with their First Loyalty.

The Third Loyalty is to their companions – the other
Bound who serve alongside them. The Bound shall deal
with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so
does not clash with their first or second loyalties. All
treasure, wealth and reward garnered in their exploits
will be equally shared with all of the Bound who aided
in its acquisition.

The Fourth Loyalty is to themselves – for Asmodeus
is the Lord of Ambition and all who serve him should
strive to become great and powerful in his service as
long as doing so does not clash with their first, second
or third loyalties. By their weakness, ye shall know the
unworthy.

The Bound swear that they cleave to and uphold the
Four Loyalties even in the face of death and damnation.

The Master swears that as long as the Four Loyalties
are upheld, he shall reward the Bound as they deserve
for their deeds.

Thus it is written, and thus it shall be.

We being of sound mind and free will do so swear
and let they who violates this Compact know all the
wrath of Hell unending.
 
They shall do all that can be
done to further his worship and his glory.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This doesn't have any clause for 'reasonably done' or 'done without getting yourself killed'.
They shall do the Master no harm
and obey his every commandment as long as those commandments
do not clash with their First Loyalty.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No clause preventing him from ordering you to kill yourself, etc.
The Bound shall deal
with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so
does not clash with their first or second loyalties.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dealing with one another fairly and honourably both heavily depends upon what each person considers fair and honourable, and doesn't specifically forbid stabbing someone you dislike or manipulating them into getting themselves killed.
The Master swears that as long as the Four Loyalties
are upheld, he shall reward the Bound as they deserve
for their deeds.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
'Reward as they deserve' is a classic way of saying 'kill them'. Also, even assuming it's in good faith there's no statement of when the reward will be given- it could be when you're on your deathbed, or even after you die.

I note there's no expiration date, either.

Yeah, that's a baaaad contract, even just on first glance.
 
Last edited:
Glad I bothered to go look up the original : /

Maugan Ra said:
The primary clause in the contract is one of loyalty to Asmodeus. You are bound to aid the Devil God in returning his faith to Talingarde, and to never knowingly work against his interests here or abroad. This is the sole perpetual clause in the contract, with no end date.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why include Asmodeus here?

Are we to expect Asmodeus to reward this pledge of loyalty out of the goodness and generosity in his heart?

I'm fine doing both of these but making an agreement with someone who isn't even here strikes me as a bit sketchy?

Especially if we don't get anything from HIM. Aside from Thorns pleasure presumably.

Or is this part of becoming a member of the Asmodean church?
 
Last edited:
zxzx24 said:
Why include Asmodeus here?

Are we to expect Asmodeus to reward this pledge of loyalty out of the goodness and generosity in his heart?

I'm fine doing both of these but making an agreement with someone who isn't even here strikes me as a bit sketchy?

Especially if we don't get anything from HIM. Aside from Thorns pleasure presumably.

Or is this part of becoming a member of the Asmodean church?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Asmodeus is not a signatory to this pact and is in no way bound to reward or acknowledge you for anything you do in pursuit of it.

He might, however, reward Adrastus Thorn for binding you in this fashion, which is why Adrastus has included the clause.
 
[X] Alcetai

I'm off to bed so I can't debate what our terms are, but from past experience and the questions he is already asking, I know Alectai is good at noticing and accounting for the small details. I will ask something that hasn't been directly answered yet.

@Maugan Ra the write in is worded as price/reward after victory is achieved, but can we add terms to the main contract to fix the loopholes we are already noticing?
 
[-] A formal recognition that all metals and precious gems which lie under the earth are the sole property of the dwarven race, and an agreement that a penalty payment equal to tenfold the value of materials removed followed by death shall be levied upon any others who mine or otherwise gather them after the fall of the House of Darius. A similar penalty, though only twofold in magnitude and with life imprisonment replacing death, shall be levied upon all who have gathered metals or gems from the earth prior to the house's fall, unless this was done in the service of Asmodeus. Should those who gather or have gathered this wealth pass on or otherwise be rendered unable to pay the aforementioned fines, responsibility for monetary reimbursement shall become the responsibility of their nearest family member. This chain of responsibility shall continue until no living relatives can be located, upon which responsibility for payment shall instead pass onto the ruler or rulers of Talingard, or should this nation cease to exist onto any successor nation or nations which replace it.
-[-] Any wealth accrued through these penalties shall be granted to a soveriegn dwarven nation of Valka's choice, or should no such nation exist be provided to her and those she names to finance the founding of such a nation. Payments to this end must commence within 1 year of the fall of the House of Darius, and conclude no less than 50 years after it. Should Valka fall before payments are completed, all money that would otherwise have been paid to her will instead be distributed evenly between all adult members of the dwarven population. No attempts may be made by the nation of Talingard or its successor(s) to claim any of the wealth granted by this agreement through means other than lawful trade, or to hinder the fulfilment of this agreement in any way.
-[-] All clauses of this agreement shall remain in place for 100 years from the fall of the House of Darius.

Continuing to workshop my idea.
 
Last edited:
With the original contract there's a number of first loopholes. You can argue the "does not conflict with the first loyalty", although probably intended to only modify the second phrase of the sentence - that of obeying Thorn - also modifies the first, and as such as long as you believe killing Thorn will further the worship of Asmodeus you're not in violation. There's also the "high priest in Talindgarde" - just make sure that when you kill him you're outside of the country, and then he's no longer "in Talingarde". There's defrocking him, however you'd go about that, there's perhaps something if he's using a fake name, perhaps if we manage to promote him - make him a pope or whatever, so he's no longer a Cardinal.

There's also the "shall know and understand the four loyalties" - perhaps with memory editing magic you could argue that at the time if you make yourself forget the terms binding you that you don't know and understand them and as such aren't held to them, there's the ending part "thus it is written and thus it shall be" - if we destroy the writing, that might be argued to end the contract.

Really, it's quite poorly formed.
 
Estro said:
With the original contract there's a number of first loopholes. You can argue the "does not conflict with the first loyalty", although probably intended to only modify the second phrase of the sentence - that of obeying Thorn - also modifies the first, and as such as long as you believe killing Thorn will further the worship of Asmodeus you're not in violation. There's also the "high priest in Talindgarde" - just make sure that when you kill him you're outside of the country, and then he's no longer "in Talingarde". There's defrocking him, however you'd go about that, there's perhaps something if he's using a fake name, perhaps if we manage to promote him - make him a pope or whatever, so he's no longer a Cardinal.

There's also the "shall know and understand the four loyalties" - perhaps with memory editing magic you could argue that at the time if you make yourself forget the terms binding you that you don't know and understand them and as such aren't held to them, there's the ending part "thus it is written and thus it shall be" - if we destroy the writing, that might be argued to end the contract.

Really, it's quite poorly formed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's also a weird little loophole for this section:
The Bound shall deal
with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so
does not clash with their first or second loyalties
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because it says 'first OR second loyalties', you could argue that dealing with your companions in ways that clash with both of them at once are actually AOK.
 
[X] All leaflovers must acknowledge the superiority of a good Dwarven brew; Molly is acknowledged as best girl and Karl as a good 'un-


Wait, this isn't the Deep Rock Galactic quest!
 
Plans so far:

[-] Name Your Price (The freedom of the dwaves, our holds in the mountians restored and given to us, our gods allowed to be worshipped again plus money to the dwarves to rebuild)

[-] The restoration of Dwarven independence, that specifically meaning whatever efforts and aid reasonably necessary for the creation of an independent polity, encompassing [INSERT HOLDS HERE] with absolute sovereignty in domestic, foreign, economic, social, and religious affairs that Asmodeus and his followers will not work in any capacity to either harm or subvert any of the so enumerated independence(s) for the period of at least five hundred years, or the death of the signer's great-grandchildren, whatever date falls later. If the restoration of the above polity in the capacity so specified is impossible for reasons of disaster - natural, magical or divine - rendering the specified geography unfit for Dwarven habitation (a status to be determined at the absolute discretion of the signer, or in the event of death or incapacity, their heir), the selfsame resources mentioned above will still be due but for the alternate purpose of the provision of an alternate Dwarven homeland, with the same degree of independence and with the same preclusion against any attempt to harm or subvert it for the same period, in a location specified by the signer, or in event of their incapacity or death, their heir. These efforts and aid are to be provided as soon as reasonably possible but not in any way that would prejudice the other aims specified in this contract, namely the death of King Markadian V, and the crowning of a new monarch who is not of his House or Dynasty.

[-] A formal recognition that all metals and precious gems which lie under the earth are the sole property of the dwarven race, and an agreement that a penalty payment equal to tenfold the value of materials removed followed by death shall be levied upon any others who mine or otherwise gather them after the fall of the House of Darius. A similar penalty, though only twofold in magnitude and with life imprisonment replacing death, shall be levied upon all who have gathered metals or gems from the earth prior to the house's fall, unless this was done in the service of Asmodeus. Should those who gather or have gathered this wealth pass on or otherwise be rendered unable to pay the aforementioned fines, responsibility for monetary reimbursement shall become the responsibility of their nearest family member. This chain of responsibility shall continue until no living relatives can be located, upon which responsibility for payment shall instead pass onto the ruler or rulers of Talingard, or should this nation cease to exist onto any successor nation or nations which replace it.
-[-] Any wealth accrued through these penalties shall be granted to a soveriegn dwarven nation of Valka's choice, or should no such nation exist be provided to her and those she names to finance the founding of such a nation. Payments to this end must commence within 1 year of the fall of the House of Darius, and conclude no less than 50 years after it. Should Valka fall before payments are completed, all money that would otherwise have been paid to her will instead be distributed evenly between all adult members of the dwarven population. No attempts may be made by the nation of Talingard or its successor(s) to claim any of the wealth granted by this agreement through means other than lawful trade, or to hinder the fulfilment of this agreement in any way.
-[-] All clauses of this agreement shall remain in place for 100 years from the fall of the House of Darius.

We should probably start working towards optimising these/deciding which one we want to aim for?
 
[-] Name Your Price - That, following the dissolution of Darian monarchy, all ancient dwarfen lore, lost and found, will be recovered and given in perpetuity to Hold of Valka; that an independent dwarfen state will be created, its culture, laws and beliefs to be decided by the negotiation between citizens and lorekeepers of Hold of Valka; that both the lore and the state will be forever protected from disappearance or loss, by any means available to either Church of Asmodeus or its succesor.

My two coppers into how to word our request
 
I support Dwarvish ethononationalism as our demand from the cardinal, but the OP says "Today, the overwhelming majority of Dwarves live in small enclaves and ethnic neighbourhoods in the towns and cities of Talingarde", which makes creating a dwarf ethnostate pretty hard. Any attempt will mean displacing most dwarves from their current homes to the new nation. That said, Valka is supposed to be a bad person, so dorf zionism may be where we want to go.

Here's my proposal:
  1. All lands north of Lake Tarik become part of a new dwarven nation.
  2. Talingarde to fund the new country's military for ten years.
  3. Talingarde will pay the moving costs for dwarves going north.
  4. Perpetual peace between Talingarde and the new dwarf country.
  5. Constitutional arrangements for the new country to be worked out Latertm​
 
I don't really care about making a dwarven state tbh, but I am very interested in bringing back dwarven culture and magic

Maybe a clause that lets us do polytheism in our new government so we don't have to just worship the worst (demons>devils 100%)? And something about lore and magic perhaps
 
Pushing for Polytheism being allowed means we might be able to wrangle other faiths into assisting the revolt. If we get that far.
 
The discussion seems to have died, so I'm going to go ahead and vote for my plan.

[X]Plan Dwarf Zionism
  1. All lands north of Lake Tarik become part of a new dwarven nation.
  2. Talingarde to fund the new country's military for ten years.
  3. Talingarde will pay the moving costs for dwarves going north.
  4. Perpetual peace between Talingarde and the new dwarf country.
  5. Constitutional arrangements for the new country to be worked out Latertm​.
The idea here is that trying to out-weasel Cardinal Thorn with the exact wording of the contract is not going to work. Our best hope is to align our geopolitical interests with the future Barcan kingdom of Talingarde. That means we have to locate the new country away from the landholdings of the established powers. We are basically promising to do the hard part of subjugating the orcish regions for them. Dwarves get land, elves get a secure northern border, everyone wins.

Except the orcs, who get a settler colonialism aimed right at them.
 
This deal is a heck of a bad offer by mr cardinal; it's the kind of thing that if I was a villain protagonist would result in me telling him I'd take my chances with the abyss. Failing that, though, we'd better make one heck of a counteroffer. Of the plans proposed I most like the one about mining, since the problems with Dwarf Zionism seem intractable enough that this doesn't end up going anywhere and I don't want to be his slave and only get a joke of a puppet kingdom out of it, but I'm not really sure he'd agree to it if he planned to follow through rather than just drive a loophole (perhaps he exercises his right to tell us where we want the money sent, or something) so I'm open to more ideas about what to do instead.
 
Staying mostly out of this one, except to add that we could possibly negotiate for the other members of our party to not be beholden to the primary clause, albeit that it would be highly and extremely risky. Other than that, there's no way out of this - signing it will consign us truly to Live in Infamy.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top