- Location
- New York
That sounds like heresy? Like Magic users trying to fuck with our beliefs. We need to burn that shit down.
Lilly, Steel , and Spell
- Thread starter Theravis
- Start date
- OOC
That sounds like heresy? Like Magic users trying to fuck with our beliefs. We need to burn that shit down.
Theravis
A Knight for those Suffering
- Location
- West Michigan
Citallon was as surprised as you are. Apparently enough people believed in Jesus to make him an archon, and thus by extension create a school of magic.
- Location
- Italy
This.
From a Christian point of view (I'm not a Christian anymore, but I'm still pretty good at entering the right mindset), it makes sense to not study that stuff. Only God can grant the "ability" to perform miracles, any attempt to grab it by yourself really, really reeks of Satanism. The Antichrist performs fake miracles.
Theravis
A Knight for those Suffering
- Location
- West Michigan
This isn't Citallon opening up a roadside miracle stand, some priests in the Netherlands tripped on it, basically.
- Location
- Italy
It really doesn't matter who did. What I'm saying is that delving in this stuff would mean a non-negligible opposition from the clergy, legit.
- Location
- New York
Also what is this exactly? IS it a bunch of sketch mages performing miracles? Because if so, Altzek is right and this shit can bring down Christianity as a whole, which also means it brings down the Divine right to rule of every monarch in Europe. It needs to be destroyed asap. The fact that @Secretariat has let it persist this long only means that he did not understand the ramifications of allowing such an aberration of faith to exist.
Theravis
A Knight for those Suffering
- Location
- West Michigan
IIRC it started out with a priest at prayer getting stigmata that just kept going, and then the miracles just started going. They've been trying to figure out how it works, slowly, ever since.
Mechanically, I'm treating it as a school of magic that doesn't have any tutors.
Theurges, essentially?
Theravis
A Knight for those Suffering
- Location
- West Michigan
Basically. I really should tone down the OOC explanations. It's more entertaining watching you all throw out explanations for things.
- Location
- Italy
If the miracles happen unwillingly, randomly, in a way reminescent of those allegedly performed by saints, then they're legitimate and if the person in question is of some social utility, you may as well canonize him or her. The issue comes when you perform them willingly, then it becomes witchcraft of a sacrilegious kind that WILL piss off a lot of people and probably make them end up on a stake if they don't stop and if there's no apology. The Inquisition is still a thing.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
It might be a problem for Catholicism. For Protestants, especially given the doctrine that all believers have a personal relationship with God, I don't really see the problem.
- Location
- Italy
The issue is just as big with Protestants, particularly the Calvinist kind. The folks in Salem were not Catholic, but Puritan.
- Location
- New York
I think you have a massively flawed view of what a Christian leader during this period would authentically perceive such a thing as. This directly jeopardizes his legitimate position.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm really quite curious how a priest or doctor of theology, invoking the name of Christ and performing acts of miraculous effect in His name, would be confused as "witchcraft."
- Location
- Italy
The gratuitiousness of the stuff would make many people turn their noses.
Still, there's an alternative;
paganism
- Location
- Germany
Uh, what about quabbalism? Does that work? @Theravis ?
Theravis
A Knight for those Suffering
- Location
- West Michigan
Depends on how widely believed it is. Faith worked because Jesus is well.... Jesus. Even the Muslims believe he was a prophet. (IIRC: If you're Muslim and I'm wrong, please correct me.)
Kabbalah, on the other hand, is much more niche.
- Location
- Italy
That's Jewish, and it isn't exactly magic, just some kind of mysticism akin to Sufism, as far as I know, and that would piss off a lot of orthodox rabbis.
- Location
- Italy
Second most important prophet after Muhammad, yes. He's called Isa but a lot of the Christian stuff about him remains, virgin birth and Messiahship, mainly. There's also a lot of reverence for Mary.
The account on his death isn't believed, though. They think that he didn't die on the cross because... you can't kill God (and he isn't God to them) and God wouldn't allow either a son (they don't think that God can have a son because that would imply polytheism, sin. Just like Jews and some kinds of Christians, they reject the concept of Trinity, or misunderstand it) or a prophet of his to die like that.
- Location
- Germany
Ad 1) kabbaah includes theurgy.As a matter of fact.
In the period, kabbala was widely accepted, if regulated as a practice , AFAIK.
The Shabbatej Zwi disaster did much to discredit it, but that is 11 years in the possible future.
As to the reverence for Jesus.. right on spot.
Actually, he was very important in Muhammeds own vision.. perhaps more than Mohammed himself.
- Location
- Italy
Not really, nope. Christianity's (and Islam's) anti-"magic" stance derives from the Old Testament, from Judaism.
Actually, what sneaked "magic" into it were apparently goyim, mostly heterodox Christians and outright pagans.
- Location
- New York
Lel. Couldn't resist.
- Location
- Italy
It just means "gentiles", "non-Jewish people", chill.
- Location
- New York
I know, but the fourteen year old memelord in me comes out sometimes.
- Location
- Germany
Yes and no.
True, Isaak ben Luria forbade the practice of 'practical' kabbalah due to the impossibility of reaching properly pure states without temple rituals....
But the practice itself was widespread among jewish communities in Europe and some authorities approved regardless.
Videlicet 'Baal Shem' , a healer and talisman maker using cabbalist rituals.