Let's Read: The Poetic Edda

More stuff about the mistletoe arrow that killed Baldur and about his brother, Hoth, who threw it. According to the footnotes, those last two lines are talking about Vali, who was born explicitly to kill Hoth. The guy who didn't know he was killing his brother because he's blind. ...Combined with that "burning someone alive three times over just for starting an arguement" incident earlier, I'm beginning to think the Norse gods might be more fucked up then the Greeks. Please, tell me that's just me imagining things or something; I don't want to think about a pantheon worse then the Greek one.
My view (... granted, it's been a while since I've actually read the myths themselves) is that the Greeks are worse. Yes, the Norse gods do some pretty nasty stuff ... also, with Gullveig's burning, it's not an 'argument' - it's a war. Between the Aesir and the Vanir. Possibly said burning is what started the war, rather than being in response to it, but in that case we don't know why they did it to begin with (not that the Edda seems to be much on the whole 'clarification for people who don't know the Rest of the Story).

Anyway. The Norse gods do some nasty stuff, yes, but they have some pretty good reasons ... at least compared to the Greeks. For example, Loki's punishment. Baldr was the most-loved of all the gods, the wisest, most charismatic, most beautiful, etc. His mother traveled the world and got literally everything to agree to not hurt him (... except the mistletoe ...). And Loki deliberately set about to murder Baldr by proxy. So, yes, in the context of Baldr and his status among the gods, the punishment is set to be similar to the degree of the crime. Loki took away the greatest and brightest light of the Aesir, so he was set to basically the most horrific punishment they could devise. Hod, meanwhile, is basically a straightforward vengeance-killing. Unpleasant, but not exactly unusual.

For the Greek side of things? Well, Zeus goes around raping everything that moves because he's a giant dick. Hera does all sorts of unpleasant things, including driving Heracles mad so he kills his family, generally because she's a giant bitch. Athena curses Medusa with a monstrous appearance because she had the temerity to be raped by Poseidon inside one of Athena's temples (granted, one of many myths). The Greek gods are a bunch of raging assholes, doing fucked up things basically for the sake of doing fucked up things. What the Norse gods do generally has some purpose; what the Greek gods do generally is because they're an asshole.
 
... also, with Gullveig's burning, it's not an 'argument' - it's a war. Between the Aesir and the Vanir. Possibly said burning is what started the war, rather than being in response to it, but in that case we don't know why they did it to begin with (not that the Edda seems to be much on the whole 'clarification for people who don't know the Rest of the Story).
Except, the burning doesn't seem to have had anything to do with the war, beyond probably being an inciting incident.

On the host his spear | did Othin hurl,
Then in the world | did war first come;
The wall that girdled | the gods was broken,
And the field by the warlike | Wanes was trodden.
The war started because Odin threw his spear into the crowd of Vanir, pretty much telling them he owned them and to get lost.

Anyway. The Norse gods do some nasty stuff, yes, but they have some pretty good reasons ... at least compared to the Greeks. For example, Loki's punishment. Baldr was the most-loved of all the gods, the wisest, most charismatic, most beautiful, etc. His mother traveled the world and got literally everything to agree to not hurt him (... except the mistletoe ...). And Loki deliberately set about to murder Baldr by proxy. So, yes, in the context of Baldr and his status among the gods, the punishment is set to be similar to the degree of the crime. Loki took away the greatest and brightest light of the Aesir, so he was set to basically the most horrific punishment they could devise. Hod, meanwhile, is basically a straightforward vengeance-killing. Unpleasant, but not exactly unusual.
Not saying that Loki didn't deserve to be punished, just that his entire family didn't deserve to get punished along with him. Turning one son into a wolf and allowing him to kill and eat the other, to then tie up Loki with what was left? Just binding him to the rocks with something Dwarf-made would have done just as well, wouldn't it? And Hod didn't even know what he was aiming! Hell, did he even know his brother was vulnerable to mistletoe? I don't think Frigg would have gone around telling everyone she didn't make mistletoe swear the vows. Punishing him doesn't make any sense!

For the Greek side of things? Well, Zeus goes around raping everything that moves because he's a giant dick. Hera does all sorts of unpleasant things, including driving Heracles mad so he kills his family, generally because she's a giant bitch. Athena curses Medusa with a monstrous appearance because she had the temerity to be raped by Poseidon inside one of Athena's temples (granted, one of many myths). The Greek gods are a bunch of raging assholes, doing fucked up things basically for the sake of doing fucked up things. What the Norse gods do generally has some purpose; what the Greek gods do generally is because they're an asshole.
Alright, yeah, I forgot some of the Greek gods worse habits. But, hmm, something here strikes me as very familiar...

driving Heracles mad so he kills his family,
Turning one son into a wolf and allowing him to kill and eat the other

Furthermore, doing fucked up things for a reason doesn't really make it any better. It just means that they were doing fucked up things for some reason.

Can we just say they were equally awful? This is already reminding me way to much of a morality debate, and I could do without another one of those, thank you very much.
 
On the punishing Loki's family front, remember that Baldr was Odin's son (and a favorite at that). I've personally always interpreted it as Odin inflicting the same unspeakable pain on Loki that Loki inflicted on him.

Edit: Overall, I'd say it's a tragedy of people dealing with both pain and family and setting off a chain of events that essentially leads to the end of the world.
 
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Can we just say they were equally awful? This is already reminding me way to much of a morality debate, and I could do without another one of those, thank you very much.
:thonk: "Is this group of people worse than this other group" is asking for a morality debate. That might be why it reminds you of a morality debate. I mean, "Morality (from Latin: mōrālis, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper." (Wikipedia) "Are Group A's actions more proper than the actions of Group B?"

So ... I mean, I disagree with saying that they're equally awful, but if you don't want to discuss it, I'll drop it.
 
Voluspa (part four)
Welcome to the final part of the Völuspá folks!

Seeress said:
Fast move the sons | of Mim, and fate
Is heard in the note | of the Gjallarhorn;
Loud blows Heimdall, | the horn is aloft,
In fear quake all | who on Hel-roads are.
Mimir's sons, water spirits of some sort according to the footnotes, are doing something or other. Heimdall blows the Gjallarhorn, letting all the gods know that shit's going down. ...What are "Hel-roads"? The footnotes don't explain that. I'm guessing from the name that its some sort of road system in Niflheim?

Seeress said:
Yggdrasil shakes, | and shiver on high
The ancient limbs, | and the giant is loose;
To the head of Mim | does Othin give heed,
But the kinsman of Surt | shall slay him soon
The giant alluded to here is Fenrir. Odin's apparently consulting Mimir for aid, but a Fire Giant is apparently going to put the poor talking head out of his memory soon. Oh, wait, it's talking about Fenrir and Odin apparently, never mind. Guess Mimir gets to live on in his decapitated state for a while longer.

Seeress said:
How fare the gods? | how fare the elves?
All Jotunheim groans, | the gods are at council;
Loud roar the dwarfs | by the doors of stone,
The masters of the rocks: | would you know yet more?
So, while Ragnarock is kicking off and the Frost Giants are marching to war, the gods are, where else, at a meeting. It seems like they hold a meeting if somebody so much as stubs a toe. The Dwarfs are up to something or other inside their halls.

Seeress said:
Now Garm howls loud | before Gnipahellir,
The fetters will burst, | and the wolf run free
Much do I know, | and more can see
Of the fate of the gods, | the mighty in fight.
For some reason there's this repeat of an earlier stanza. Maybe this is supposed to be when these events take place, and the earlier stanza was her telling the future?

Seeress said:
From the east comes Hrym | with shield held high;
In giant-wrath | does the serpent writhe;
O'er the waves he twists, | and the tawny eagle
Gnaws corpses screaming; | Naglfar is loose.
Hrym is the leader of the Giant races I guess. That's what he's addressed as in the footnotes, at least. Has he even been mentioned once? Also, I think that's our first mention of Jormungandr, or "Mithgarthsorm", as the footnotes call him. I think I like Jormungandr better. I initially thought it was Nidhoggr, because of the mention of the eagle, but no, it's Jormungandr. Naglfar is a ship constructed out of the nails of Niflheim's dead, and it should be carrying the Giants into battle soon.

Seeress said:
O'er the sea from the east | there sails a ship
With the people of Muspell, | at the helm stands Loki;
After the wolf | do wild men follow,
And with them the brother | of Byleist goes.
Ah, there it is now. And, of course, Loki's at the helm. Don't know what he could possibly be mad enough about to turn against the gods for. Who are these "wild men"? Hel's army? Oh, hey, the footnotes say Byleist is Loki's brother. He apparently only turns up for this stanza and is never mentioned again. He certainly had a meaningful impact on this poem, didn't he? It couldn't have been written without him.

Seeress said:
Surt fares from the south | with the scourge of branches,
The sun of the battle-gods | shone from his sword;
The crags are sundered, | the giant-women sink,
The dead throng Hel-way, | and heaven is cloven.
And Surtr just #reck's everything's shit with a super-sword of fire, jesus christ. Who are the giant-women? Just generic female Frost/Fire Giants?

Seeress said:
Now comes to Hlin | yet another hurt,
When Othin fares | to fight with the wolf,
And Beli's fair slayer | seeks out Surt,
For there must fall | the joy of Frigg.
Odin and Freyr go out to fight their respective nemisis, with predicted results. Beli is a Frost Giant that Freyr apparently killed with his bare fists. Also, Hlin is apparently another name for Frigg.

Seeress said:
Then comes Sigfather's | mighty son,
Vithar, to fight | with the foaming wolf;
In the giant's son | does he thrust his sword
Full to the heart: | his father is avenged.
Sigfather = Odin. One of Vithar's appellations is "the silent god". I guess he must be, we haven't seen one mention of him before this stanza. Apparently, he's capable of killing Fenrir when even Odin, the chief god with the undodgable spear, couldn't.

Seeress said:
Hither there comes | the son of Hlothyn,
The bright snake gapes | to heaven above;
. . . . . . . . . .
Against the serpent | goes Othin's son.
Oh, here comes Thor to fight Jormungandr. Let's see if he does any better then dear old dad, eh?

Seeress said:
In anger smites | the warder of earth,--
Forth from their homes | must all men flee;-
Nine paces fares | the son of Fjorgyn,
And, slain by the serpent, | fearless he sinks.
M-M-MUTUAL KILL! People flee the region due to the battle between the two titans. Thor kills Jormungandr, and manages nine steps before the snake's venom kills him.

Seeress said:
The sun turns black, | earth sinks in the sea,
The hot stars down | from heaven are whirled;
Fierce grows the steam | and the life-feeding flame,
Till fire leaps high | about heaven itself.
Fenrir's son Skoll swallows the sun, and his other son, Hati, the moon. The reason everything goes up in flames, I think, is due to Surtr's omega sword. ...Actually, what happened to Surtr? Fenrir and Jormungandr are dead, but we haven't heard about what happened to Surtr or Loki. ...It must really hurt to be Loki right now. Most of his family, godly or Jotun, has killed each other, with only his grandsons, daughter, and wife remaining.

Seeress said:
Now Garm howls loud | before Gnipahellir,
The fetters will burst, | and the wolf run free;
Much do I know, | and more can see
Of the fate of the gods, | the mighty in fight.
Ah, the return of the repeating stanza, with a vengeance! Even the footnotes don't know why this thing is here, and think the author just put it here by mistake.

Seeress said:
Now do I see | the earth anew
Rise all green | from the waves again;
The cataracts fall, | and the eagle flies,
And fish he catches | beneath the cliffs.
And so, from the burning, wrecked ashes of the old, the world is born anew. Is that eagle the one that's supposed to live at the top of Yggdrasill and antagonizes Niddhogr?

Seeress said:
The gods in Ithavoll | meet together,
Of the terrible girdler | of earth they talk,
And the mighty past | they call to mind,
And the ancient runes | of the Ruler of Gods.
The remaining gods carry on their tradition of holding a meeting for everything. They talk about the giant snake corpse that's probably just sitting around somewhere. Then they talk about those rune thins that Odin used but didn't seem to prove terribly useful to him in the end.

Seeress said:
In wondrous beauty | once again
Shall the golden tables | stand mid the grass,
Which the gods had owned | in the days of old,
The survivors of Ragnarok hold a feast to celebrate, dragging some tables from the ruin Valhalla has probably turned into by this point.

Seeress said:
Then fields unsowed | bear ripened fruit,
All ills grow better, | and Baldr comes back;
Baldr and Hoth dwell | in Hropt's battle-hall,
And the mighty gods: | would you know yet more?
Baldur and Hod, maybe the only truly innocent characters in this, are revived from the dead...for some reason? Some sort of magic by Odin or Frigg? Anyway, this goes a way to raising morale after that whole end of the world thing.

Seeress said:
Then Hönir wins | the prophetic wand,
And the sons of the brothers | of Tveggi abide
In Vindheim now: | would you know yet more?
Oh hey, it's Hönir! Been a while since he showed up. Hönir is the guy who gave the gift of "sense" to the first two humans way back in happier times. "Tveggi" is yet another name for Odin, so the brothers referenced here are Ve and Vili. I don't think we've seen them mentioned since the first post, about sixty stanzas ago.

Seeress said:
More fair than the sun, | a hall I see,
Roofed with gold, | on Gimle it stands;
There shall the righteous | rulers dwell,
And happiness ever | there shall they have.
The surviving gods make a new home in a hall, apparently on the mountain Gimle.

Seeress said:
There comes on high, | all power to hold,
A mighty lord, | all lands he rules.
This stanza, according to the footnotes apparently wasn't found in the Regius, the original collection of poems. Some people apparently link this to Christianity and Jesus, but I think it's probably just referring to Baldur. He seems to be the only remaining son of Odin alive, everyone likes him, and he's noted to be fair, which I don't believe is in the handsome/pretty sense, so he seems the logical choice for a ruler.

Seeress said:
From below the dragon | dark comes forth,
Nithhogg flying | from Nithafjoll;
The bodies of men on | his wings he bears,
The serpent bright: | but now must I sink.
And Niddhoggr out of fucking nowhere comes to say hi. He seems to be having a great time, what with all those snacks on his wings. And then the Seeress dies and the poem ends.

So, that's all 66 stanzas of the Völuspá finished. It's been a trip, and I've learned a lot from this. But! We haven't reached the end of the Edda yet! There's still quite a few more poems to go! I think I've used a few to many exclamation points! Next time, we start reading the Hávamál.
 
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...Actually, what happened to Surtr? Fenrir and Jormungandr are dead, but we haven't heard about what happened to Surtr or Loki. ...It must really hurt to be Loki right now. Most of his family, godly or Jotun, has killed each other, with only his grandsons, daughter, and wife remaining.
According to another story, Loki and Heimdall kill each other. Surtr presumably dies nuking the world.
 
Oh, Ican't wait til he gets to Vithar's bits in later parts of the Edda. Or as I like to call those stanzas "Vithar and the Boot of DESTINY!"

Edit: Damn autocorrect.
 
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