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Let's Make A Persona Game

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Shadow Cabinet analysis
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    • I do appreciate the pun the Shadow Cabinet's name, as for their actual activity.

    Information: Biggest problem I imediately see here is that a Wild Card would be pretty valuable source of information, so they have negative reason for stranding Yoshiki.

    Surveillance: This one I can see nicely. It's the kind of stuff big shadowy organisations would get into and could go into all kind of sinister directions. It also gives them motivation to get rid of a potential chaotic element like a Wild Card to avoid things spiraling to the point where they're no longer under their control.

    Mercenary: This one can work, but would probably need a bit more fleshing out for their motivation. Did somebody set an open bounty on all Wild Cards for some reason, did they just not care enough about Yoshiki as a potential combat asset that they felt abandoning him in that situation would be worth it, or did they worry about him going rogue and figured he's a risk they should snuff out in the bud?

    As for the inspiration of Dantes rewarding people, that could tie in quite nicely with PA2's idea of Yoshiki offering the party members a place in his shadow estate where they can drown in riches and pleasures.
     
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    • So yeah, the Shadow Cabinet's thing being Surveillance seems to make the most sense, unless anyone can give a counter-argument. I did have the idea that one of the Revenge Targets could've been a scout from the Cabinet that recruited the other Argonauts into it in the first place, who could either be the last Target taken care of, or the first, to 'send a message' to the rest of the Targets.
    In the latter case, the last target could then become Yoshiki's former tagalong and Argonauts co-founder (Rin having been a newcomer), the typical Magician role in other games, or who otherwise would've been the standard main girl, the Lovers role in other games, to highlight the 'going too far' aspect.

    Mazeka once told me that, were this to be a Quest, that it might be better to quickly skip over the initial pre-timeskip part to get to the core revenge storyline, but later use flashbacks to flesh it out. I certainly understand wanting to start sooner to the action and to the end, though I am worried it may leave readers feeling more apathetic over the initial betrayal and that flashbacks may be an awkward way of getting this info across. If one was to go this route though, I guess the first dungeon or rather tutorial dungeon could be the volcanic island after Rin and Yoshiki get marooned.

    Mazeka also talked about how Rin and Yoshiki got hit by the same crime as a child, possibly how they recognised each other years later, so I was thinking that could be incorporated as a 'surprise' Revenge Target, maybe who you fight instead of the Medea girl.

    By the way, if anyone's wondering why Mera keeps referring to Rin and Yoshiki as 'Owners', it's meant in the same way as say Woody would call Andy his owner, but I can understand if a better term could be needed.
     
    Persona Sheets #1
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    • Okay, thought to draft up some profiles for the various Personae, Raguel being a little more powerful since Rin can't change Personae.
    To explain what 'Sun and Moon' as Elements are, they're Elements taken from Devil Children of all games, Sun combining both Bless and Nuclear with Frei replacing Kouha, while Moon's a mix of Curse and the Gravity element (I didn't want to include Psy since, well, I feel like aren't all Persona attacks Psy-elemental by definition?), with Gry replacing Eiha. Since I had different ideas in mind for Physical elements, I thought to cut down on some other elements (Fire, Ice, Wind, and Electric remain the same).

    Ishmael
    Level: 1
    Arcana: Justice
    User: Asahoshi Rin (Initial Persona)
    Appearance:
    A cog-operated sailor clad in sea charts clinging to driftwood, his face masked with a compass.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 2
    - Cognition: 2
    - Agility: 2
    - Luck: 1
    - Endurance: 2
    Elements:
    - Resist Wind and Sun
    - Weak to Electric and Moon
    Trait: Storm Warning - Immediately know when an enemy has a super-effective attack (meant to get taken away after you're used to the tutorial).
    Skills:
    - Garu
    - Dia
    - Bash
    - Tarukaja
    - Makakaja

    Dantes
    Level: 1
    Arcana: Fool
    User: Yugure Yoshiki (Initial Persona)
    Appearance:
    A sunken man tied by chains to a weight, an iron mask seared onto his face.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 1
    - Cognition: 3
    - Agility: 2
    - Luck: 1
    - Endurance: 3
    Elements:
    - Resist Ice
    - Weak to Sun
    Trait: Best Served Cold - Boosted chance of counter and parry.
    Skills:
    - Bufu
    - Counter
    - Parry
    - Rakukaja
    - Sukukaja

    Raguel
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Justice
    User: Asahoshi Rin (Prime Persona)
    Appearance:
    A large, floating compass displaying divine blueprints that resembled constellations, balancing scales hanging on either side. The top edge of the compass is adorned with bronze angel wings and a gold sheriff's star placed on top.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 11
    - Cognition: 11
    - Agility: 12
    - Luck: 9
    - Endurance: 9
    Elements:
    - Resists Sun and Moon
    Trait: Grand Architect - Allows for the redesign and reconstruction of Dungeons/Islands upon being mapped.
    Skills:
    - Magaru > Magarula
    - Garula > Garudyne
    - Mahama > Mahamaon
    - Media > Diarama > Mediarama
    - Me Patra
    - Freila > Mafreila
    - Gryva > Magryva

    Monte-Cristo
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Fool
    User: Yugure Yoshiki (Prime Persona)
    Appearance:
    A mighty anchor with a dark-robed man crucified onto it, the one chain left from Dantes now connected to Yoshiki's ankle.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 10
    - Cognition: 11
    - Agility: 12
    - Luck: 8
    - Endurance: 12
    Elements:
    - Resists Ice and Moon
    - Weak to Sun
    Trait: God of Vengeance - Boosts damage dealt by Counter and Parry attacks.
    Skills:
    - Mabufu > Bufula
    - Gry > Magry
    - Counterstrike
    - Backstab (boosted Parry odds)
    - Marakukaja

    Frankenstein
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Hermit
    User: Mera
    Appearance:
    A needle and thread attached like a kite to a thundercloud, the cloud looking like a castle, the kite taking the shape of the classic monster's head.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 12
    - Cognition: 11
    - Agility: 8
    - Luck: 8
    - Endurance: 12
    Elements:
    - Resists Electric and Moon
    - Weak to Fire and Ice
    Trait: It's Alive - SP Cost reduced for Resurrection spells.
    Skills:
    - Mazio > Zionga > Mazionga
    - Recarm
    - Analyse
    - Sonic Punch
     
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    • They look good to me, I especially like the touch of making Yoshiki's default Persona counter focused. As for the trait It's Alive, I think the idea behind it is good, but resurrection spells might be a bit too rigid to make it work. Samarecarm already includes a full heal, so there's no real space to boost its effectiveness, unless it turns the spell multi-target. It might work better if you include something along the lines of an SP cost reduction.
     
    Persona Sheets #2
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    • Originally I was just gonna use Slash/Strike/Pierce for the Physical Elements, but I then had a different idea, that Physical attacks could be divided into Quick, Heavy, and Aimed 'elements':
    • Quick attacks can be blocked or dodged, but can't be countered or parried, and are more likely to combo. Quick weapons include basic swords, katana, whips, machine guns, gauntlets, greaves, crossbows, etc.
    • Heavy attacks can't be blocked, and can even break one's guard, but can be dodged and parried. Heavy weapons include hammers, axes, scythes, shotguns, greatswords, longbows, etc.
    • Aimed attacks can't be dodged, but can be blocked and countered, and have a higher crit rate. Aimed weapons include rapiers, rifles, spears, tridents, daggers, etc.
    Also, some more Persona stats, probably a little less thought out than the previous ones. I was originally going to have both La Llorona and Scarface (Al Capone) but I combined my ideas for them into Santa Muerte, who has been prayed to for revenge. While I like Kullervo, I wasn't sure about statting him since we already have a big Electric caster with Franken. I'm gonna place them at Level 10 for simplicity's sake, since I don't know yet at which point they'd be showing up:

    Medea
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Lovers/Priestess/Moon
    Appearance: Two intertwined, magic-spouting serpents around a long, rusted nail, that are able to be ridden like a witch's broom or attached to the back like a jetpack.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 8
    - Cognition: 13
    - Agility: 10
    - Luck: 9
    - Endurance: 9
    Elements:
    - Resists Sun
    - Weak to Electric
    Trait: Princess Poison - Ailments inflicted by Medea must be actively cured, will not heal with time.
    Skills:
    - Frei > Mafrei > Freila > Mafreila
    - Makakaja
    - Tarunda
    - Poisma > Poison Breath
    - Diarama > Mediarama

    Hamlet
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Death/Moon/Magician/Fortune/Sun (I'm guessing mostly for the Horus similarities?)
    Appearance: A skull in an Elizabethan cap that opens up to reveal a stage with purple curtains, a gold tragedy mask hanging on its side.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 11
    - Cognition: 12
    - Agility: 12
    - Luck: 8
    - Endurance: 9
    Elements:
    - Resists Moon and Ice
    - Weak to Sun
    Trait: Alas Poor Yorick - Boosts highest Stat upon an ally being KO'd.
    Skills:
    - Mudo > Mudoon
    - Parry
    - Sukukaja
    - Makajam
    - Bufu > Mabufu

    Boudicca
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Empress/Chariot/Strength
    Appearance: The front carriage of a steaming, off-the-rails train, the wheels on either side ringed with scythes, woad-like patterns glowing red around it, and a metal statue of a woman instead of a smokestack.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 13
    - Cognition: 11
    - Agility: 12
    - Luck: 9
    - Endurance: 8
    Elements:
    - Resists Fire
    - Weak to Wind
    Trait: London's Burning - Burn status effect deals double damage.
    Skills:
    - Agi > Maragi > Agilao > Maragion
    - Tarakuja
    - Rakunda
    - Heat Wave
    - Cruel Attack

    Santa Muerte
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Death/Hierophant/Devil
    Appearance: A black-haired woman without skin in a nun's habit and trenchcoat, the habit white with a balck streak and the coat black with a white streak. Has a scythe blade for a right hand and a minigun for her left.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 11
    - Cognition: 11
    - Agility: 11
    - Luck: 9
    - Endurance: 10
    Elements:
    - Resists Aimed and Moon
    - Weak to Heavy
    Trait: Day of the Dead - All critical hits have a low chance of inflicting instant-death on standard enemies.
    Skills:
    - Evil Touch > Evil Smile
    - Mamudo > Mamudoon
    - Double Shot > Triple Down
    - Gryva > Magryva
    - Sukunda

    Hammurabi
    Level: 10
    Arcana: Emperor/Hierophant/Temperance/Sun
    Appearance: A towering stone block inscribed with a cuneiform law codex acting as a shield for the user, with a dragon's head carved up top and two stone pictures of kings standing either side.
    Stats:
    - Strength: 13
    - Cognition: 9
    - Agility: 8
    - Luck: 10
    - Endurance: 12
    Elements:
    - Resist Heavy and Sun
    - Weak to Ice
    Trait: Lex Talionis - When Hammurabi's user has a Stat lowered, the same stat may be lowered on the debuffer in turn.
    Skills:
    - Counter > Counterstrike
    - Dekaja
    - Hama > Hamaon
    - Herculean Strike
    - Garula > Magarula
     
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    • Proxy
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    • I had a very interesting thought to go with the whole revenge aspect...

    Persona V broke the rule by not having Philemon and Igor making the player the wild card, but rather the proxy of Nyarlathotep doing so while pretending to be Igor.

    Given how Revenge is far more Nyarlathotep's viewpoint than Philemon's, what if for this one, the Proxy openly is the one making the deal with the Wild Card?

    It is only after the division between Rin and Yoshiki starts to become apparent that Igor appears and makes an attempt to sway Rin to join Philemon's side. (Potential for an optional bad end route and hidden boss by refusing him?)

    Speaking of which, I think I have an idea on who the Proxy of the Game should be. Taahkarr, The Serer god of both Justice and Revenge. It would also explain why we have deuteragonists filling both roles.
     
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    • DarkHabit said:
    I had a very interesting thought to go with the whole revenge aspect...

    Persona V broke the rule by not having Philemon and Igor making the player the wild card, but rather the proxy of Nyarlathotep doing so while pretending to be Igor.

    Given how Revenge is far more Nyarlathotep's viewpoint than Philemon's, what if for this one, the Proxy openly is the one making the deal with the Wild Card?

    It is only after the division between Rin and Yoshiki starts to become apparent that Igor appears and makes an attempt to sway Rin to join Philemon's side. (Potential for an optional bad end route and hidden boss by refusing him?)
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    So the part I've quoted I think is a pretty good idea, especially having the MCs straight up know the proxy rather than keeping it a secret again, no issue there.

    However, while I like Takhar and think he should still be in this as an Ultimate Persona or important character, I'm not really sure if he should be the Proxy. He's classed as a demigod, saint, or ancestor spirit within his own mythos (Fangool being the word used for him) rather than a full-on deity, so I'm not sure he's exactly Final Boss-ish material.

    When you put it that way, I feel it'd be more interesting to have the Proxy straight up be Nyarlathotep again, maybe in the guise of the Time Count in the Velvet Room? I've also discussed having no less than YHVH (though probably under the name 'The Watchmaker' or 'The Architect') or Lucifer be the Proxy, I mean if Lucifer can have a plot role in Raidou, he could in Persona.
     
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    I hate threads like these. Makes me excited before realizing it won't be made into a game. J/k

    I feel that knowing what will be the common theme to the characters' design is important. Guns, glasses, latex, etc. Hats maybe?
     
    Ah, I thought you were talking about summoning devices at first (to which I'd say chess pieces, black for Yoshiki, Rin, and the Shadows, white for the Targets), then I remembered glasses in P4 had nothing to do with summoning.

    Going back over the face claims, I'd say suits would be the common theme.

    Edit: I like the term 'closet game' for this sort of thing, taken from the term 'closet drama' meaning something written like a play but not meant or able to be staged. I have no idea if any of us would be able to put together a ROMhack or anything, but this is always up for grabs as a Quest or Fic (not sure a Roleplay would work).
     
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    We're taking different approaches to how we do our work apparently. For me, I start from the Character designs.

    Can you explain what you mean by suits? Formal Wear? For both male and female?

    I think, it would be easier to choose which System to use from one of the games if one was to do a Quest/RP.
     
    Formal wear yeah, so that could be expanded to include gowns, but especially anything with a more gangster/vendetta vibe.

    Yeah, other than Yoshiki, Rin, and I guess Mera, we haven't really gotten the characters nailed down beyond vague summaries like 'Medea's user who sides with Yoshiki/Rin despite betraying them before' or 'Former best friend' or 'scout for the Shadow Cabinet'.

    I usually go rules-light for Quests, with things like Stats and Skills serving more as personal reminders for me, since I've heard before that Quests should either lean towards narrative or mechanics without trying to meet with. I'd have no idea really which system could simulate both Persona and a Dungeon Builder, my usual default answer is to just go with FATE.

    Edit: Also, rethinking the time-skip a little, I'm thinking simply putting Rin and Yoshiki in a coma might work instead, since adding a bit of physical force (maybe an unwinnable fight with the rest of the initial party) might increase and explain Yoshiki's revenge incentive. The Sea of Souls being cognitive though, it's possible we could combine the two.
     
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    Inb4 someone tries to use the coma to access the Sea of Souls.

    I kinda like that idea tbh. Gangster-esque Persona Game would have been nice to play ngl. The only problem is that the rating would be T or higher.

    I'd vote for a overcoat and scarf for male and fur coat for female. I never did like the Yakuza suit style for the bosses.

    IMO, the major decision of the Vendetta is whether or not there will be hidden factors like blackmail, a manipulator, or if the antagonist was a fake friend.
     
    Dungeon Tile Types, Traitor reactions
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    • Lapin Lune said:
    Yeah, other than Yoshiki, Rin, and I guess Mera, we haven't really gotten the characters nailed down beyond vague summaries like 'Medea's user who sides with Yoshiki/Rin despite betraying them before' or 'Former best friend' or 'scout for the Shadow Cabinet'.

    I usually go rules-light for Quests, with things like Stats and Skills serving more as personal reminders for me, since I've heard before that Quests should either lean towards narrative or mechanics without trying to meet with. I'd have no idea really which system could simulate both Persona and a Dungeon Builder, my usual default answer is to just go with FATE.
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    I think it might help to set up somewhat of a theme the structure them along. One possibility that sticks out is aligning them along their reaction to what they did (feeling justified, apathetic, regretful, etc). The characters need more than that one attitude to flesh them out, but it would be a starting point and keep them in line with the theme of escalating pettyness. Say the guy that has absolutely no guilt about betraying the protagonists is going to feel like a more justified revenge target than the one that's already plagued by nightmares from his actions and is mostly just trying to run away from his past.

    I'm the type that gravitates towards keeping things rules light as well. How much mechanics there should be for the dungeon builder aspect depends on how in detail we want it to be. For example, It could be handeled like a straightforward set of categories:

    Location
    Bait
    Boss "Room"
    Mooks
    Trap

    Then the players get to pick a general theme and then the dungeon is auto filled, or it could be much more involved process where various options have point costs and different effectiveness etc. Although, unless this turns into an actual video game through some miracle, getting down a dungeon map where everything is hand placed would be way too much of a hassle to realistically accomplish.
    ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ said:
    I'd vote for a overcoat and scarf for male and fur coat for female. I never did like the Yakuza suit style for the bosses.
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    I can definetly agree with a scarf. Mostly because they're very fancy and don't get enough love.
     
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    • On Discord, HaruhiIsWaifu went into a little detail about what maybe the old party turned traitors turned revenge targets should be like. Their advice was to imagine each Persona party member, or archetype anyway, as if they were the Traitor of their game (much easier with the P3 and P4 casts, at least early on, than with the P5 cast), then pull inspiration from that.

    I was thinking the scout for the Shadow Cabinet who recruited the Traitors in the first place and failed to recruit Yoshiki and Rin, and the physical powerhouse who could line up with Fernand and Heracles as Edgedancer as suggested, should be among the early targets, since the send the message from Yoshiki that 'we took these two out first, what chance do you have?'. After that comes the Target who goes back to siding with Yoshiki and Rin as the mid-point twist, then the former 'best friend' and second-in-command (loose Danglars analogue) who's clearly haunted, then finally the more girly girl character that makes think Rin they've gone too far.

    If the more feminine girl is last, that leaves the 'no-nonsense authoritative female' as either the scout or the returner.

    About non-party S. Links, my thoughts were that they'd be people Yoshiki first recruits for practical purposes and promises to help get their own vengeance, but who Rin then helps on his own to deal with the fallout from revenge. So people like the local yakuza, biker gang leaders, information brokers, a lawyer they bribe to defend them or do a bad job prosecuting them, etc.

    Edit: Unlike P5 though, the S. Links wouldn't necessarily all be 'outcast' types, like quite a few people could be from high society now that Yoshiki has the money from the netherworld to present himself as a 'Great Gatsby'-type.
     
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    So we have:

    High Society
    Low Society

    Maybe Caste System? I never went over Social Studies in depth tbh.

    If we're there's an OPB (Old Party Betrayal), i'd like to suggest having someone be innocent but forced to be a part of the betrayal.

    Also plot twist: It wasn't the Old Party that betrayed you, YOU betrayed the Old Party! J/k
     
    I'm gonna chime in too. I have a similar idea with the Persona-like game. Well, quest actually. Though, this is more on the game mechanic instead of the plot.

    So in the game, there are two stats: Combat and Social. The former is used during battle and the latter during daily life.

    What I'm interested in is the latter since I'm making one myself. Each game has its variation, so I see what I want to use.

    In the end, there are two stats I'm interested in the most: Academic/Intelligence and Charm/Charisma.

    They're self-explanatory. Intelligence measures PC's intelligence and Charisma measures how he can charm other people.

    I'm currently thinking of other stats that I want to use, but those two are a must.
     
    ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ said:
    If we're there's an OPB (Old Party Betrayal), i'd like to suggest having someone be innocent but forced to be a part of the betrayal.
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    That idea could likely be incorporated into either the returner, or the girly girl who's the last of the targets.

    As for the talk about Stats, the ones I use for Persona: the Beautiful are Strength, Cognition, Agility, Luck, and Endurance in combat, and Perception (sort of a combination of Proficiency and Understanding), Etiquette, Education, and Resolve in society... mainly 'cause Fallout's SPECIAL got me into Stat Acronyms. Keep in mind though that P:TB is a mostly rules-light Quest, where the 'stats' are mostly just my notes on how Personae react to different combat situations, and what the lead can and can't say yet.

    A while ago though I saw something else, which tried to tie Persona 4's Combat and Social Stats together. I believe it was Strength+Courage, Vitality+Diligence, Agility+Expression, Magic+Knowledge, and Luck+Understanding.

    Also, one thing that struck me and I like about the Fear idea by @The-Fall-Guy is that it kinda hearkens back to Persona's occult roots, present in the first three games but reduced in 4 and mostly abandoned in 5.

    Edit: In retrospect, I think I should've gone for Cognition - Luck - Agility - Stamina - Strength, so it could be CLASS instead of SCALE.
     
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    Double-posting again, but I do feel it'd be vital to settle on an actual name for this Persona fan-project beyond 'this idea', or 'our Persona idea', or stuff like that, to make referring to it less awkward.

    My ideas so far have been the following, but let me know if you have any others:

    [ ] Persona: Gathering Storm
    [ ] Persona: The Vengeful
    [ ] Persona Tempest
    [ ] Persona Divine
    [ ] Persona Judgment
    [ ] Persona: Undying Grudge
    [ ] Persona Designer
    [ ] Persona Avengeance
     
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    I thought it could just be a fun little nod, but true, so I added 'Undying' to mix it up.

    'Gathering Storm' and 'Tempest' are both references to TCoMC's constant storm motif, and also the Shakespeare play in the latter case (the only Shakespeare play where the revenge-seeker chooses forgiveness, from memory).
     
    Lapin Lune said:
    [ ] Persona: The Vengeful
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    This one reminds me immediately of Persona: The Beautiful in terms of naming convention and while that pleases my sense of pattern recognition and makes for a good pedigree, we probably want to give this a bit more of its own feel.

    I think I like Persona Tempest the best. It's snappy and manages to work in multiple layers of meaning.
    ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ said:
    First of all, we need a number. :V
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    So Persona twenty-something as a reference to the protagonists being adults? :V
     
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