Remove ads

Let's Blind Watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Reader mode
Okay, now to be serious, now that we're here and my point can't do any cross-contamination of views, I kind of want to touch on why I feel like PMMM's opening isn't much like the typical magical girl show. Not to call anyone out, but because this is something I hear a lot and I want to dissect it a bit. So, I've seem quite a few of them and thus am going to cite examples. Bear with me.

There are a few angles you can view this from. You can view it from a plot perspective- for instance, Kyubey's offer condition is rather unique; there is an exchange of sorts upon the typical agreement to become a magical girl, but it's typically along the lines of "These people are in danger, and you can save them!" (trailblazer Sailor Moon is the perfect example of this- "The world's in danger!" and "Do you want to save your friend? Then here's what you need to do!") There aren't many shows I can think of where there's some concrete deal in play.

But let's set that aside because it isn't what I want to talk about. I want to talk about tone and how scenes are framed to create a tonal impression. In general, magical girl shows can have dark things happening to them on the first episode (Heartcatch Precure has somebody seemingly die), but the general tone of the first episode is that of cheerful optimism. Things are good and will continue to be good, and then I get a power which I can use to protect people and save the world! And even any relevant tragic elements have a distant, fantastical quality to them- in Heartcatch's case, it's in a dream, and there is the fantastical nature of the fight to soften any sort of emotional blow. Which of course, exempts the first scene in PMMM from this as well. The thing is, this extends well beyond the first scene. The tone and dialogue of the show in general are often very melodramatic; nothing wrong with that, I love melodrama and MG series have plenty of it (Sailor Moon S and Sailor Moon are incredible melodramic, and Fresh Pretty Cure uses melodrama better than pretty much any other MG series I've seen) but the melodrama is utilized to contrast light and darkness (not to mention that for Fresh and Sailor Moon it's the culmination of arcs at the middle/end of the season), and I wouldn't say it's used that way here. It's just... used to deliver the story. And there's nothing wrong with being a melodramatic show, it's just typically not how a MG show spends its first episode.

The lighting of the show in general is pretty interesting. There is a decent amount of utilization of shadows and darkness in the first couple episodes of Madoka Magica- a lot of the stuff with Homura, for instance, has part of her face in shadow, and there's also an entire portion set in an basement(?) area of a mall. This isn't really something Magical Girl anime tends to do. Lighting isn't really used that way; the lighting tends to be relatively bright and chipper, to properly match the mood the show is going for. You don't really get that here. Music is the same way- Yuki Kaijura is an amazing artist, but her music typically doesn't really capture a cheerful, magical girl feel. There's some sharp, bright songs in the first couple episodes like Credens Justifiam (Mami's theme), but there's a big difference. Kaijura does "serious music" for lack of a better way to put it, and MG tunes are typically sharp and poppy and try to get caught in your head a bit. The music often colors the tone of the show, and the music in Madoka is simply more.. serious, than in your typical Magical Girl anime.

Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If Madoka wants to be a serious magical girl show for adults, it should do its thing. I like the show quite a bit for being a darker MG series with an adult audience (around the same niche as Nanoha). But I wouldn't say that the show really has a typical MG opening, because there's too many things that don't quite fit, that don't necessarily need to be the case- Nanoha comes pretty close to having 3 episodes super close to Cardcaptor Sakura in content and tone, for instance, despite being for adults.

There we go, I've said my piece, take it for what its worth.
 
Broken Base said:
Okay, now to be serious, now that we're here and my point can't do any cross-contamination of views, I kind of want to touch on why I feel like PMMM's opening isn't much like the typical magical girl show. Not to call anyone out, but because this is something I hear a lot and I want to dissect it a bit. So, I've seem quite a few of them and thus am going to cite examples. Bear with me.

There are a few angles you can view this from. You can view it from a plot perspective- for instance, Kyubey's offer condition is rather unique; there is an exchange of sorts upon the typical agreement to become a magical girl, but it's typically along the lines of "These people are in danger, and you can save them!" (trailblazer Sailor Moon is the perfect example of this- "The world's in danger!" and "Do you want to save your friend? Then here's what you need to do!") There aren't many shows I can think of where there's some concrete deal in play.

But let's set that aside because it isn't what I want to talk about. I want to talk about tone and how scenes are framed to create a tonal impression. In general, magical girl shows can have dark things happening to them on the first episode (Heartcatch Precure has somebody seemingly die), but the general tone of the first episode is that of cheerful optimism. Things are good and will continue to be good, and then I get a power which I can use to protect people and save the world! And even any relevant tragic elements have a distant, fantastical quality to them- in Heartcatch's case, it's in a dream, and there is the fantastical nature of the fight to soften any sort of emotional blow. Which of course, exempts the first scene in PMMM from this as well. The thing is, this extends well beyond the first scene. The tone and dialogue of the show in general are often very melodramatic; nothing wrong with that, I love melodrama and MG series have plenty of it (Sailor Moon S and Sailor Moon are incredible melodramic, and Fresh Pretty Cure uses melodrama better than pretty much any other MG series I've seen) but the melodrama is utilized to contrast light and darkness (not to mention that for Fresh and Sailor Moon it's the culmination of arcs at the middle/end of the season), and I wouldn't say it's used that way here. It's just... used to deliver the story. And there's nothing wrong with being a melodramatic show, it's just typically not how a MG show spends its first episode.

The lighting of the show in general is pretty interesting. There is a decent amount of utilization of shadows and darkness in the first couple episodes of Madoka Magica- a lot of the stuff with Homura, for instance, has part of her face in shadow, and there's also an entire portion set in an basement(?) area of a mall. This isn't really something Magical Girl anime tends to do. Lighting isn't really used that way; the lighting tends to be relatively bright and chipper, to properly match the mood the show is going for. You don't really get that here. Music is the same way- Yuki Kaijura is an amazing artist, but her music typically doesn't really capture a cheerful, magical girl feel. There's some sharp, bright songs in the first couple episodes like Credens Justifiam (Mami's theme), but there's a big difference. Kaijura does "serious music" for lack of a better way to put it, and MG tunes are typically sharp and poppy and try to get caught in your head a bit. The music often colors the tone of the show, and the music in Madoka is simply more.. serious, than in your typical Magical Girl anime.

Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If Madoka wants to be a serious magical girl show for adults, it should do its thing. I like the show quite a bit for being a darker MG series with an adult audience (around the same niche as Nanoha). But I wouldn't say that the show really has a typical MG opening, because there's too many things that don't quite fit, that don't necessarily need to be the case- Nanoha comes pretty close to having 3 episodes super close to Cardcaptor Sakura in content and tone, for instance, despite being for adults.

There we go, I've said my piece, take it for what its worth.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I understand your point and am willing to acknowledge it. I do admit that I have no practical knowledge of the "magical girl" genre, so when I said that the first episode of PMMM did exactly what I expected the pilot of a magical girl show to do, I meant that all the expectations I had were met. I engaged it with a vague idea of what it should do, and it did precisely that.

In fact, most of my discontent with the pilot comes from the fact that I didn't find any moments that made me actually excited beyond the initial interest I already had. As its own work, not connected to the genre, it was fine and well-executed, but I didn't find something that made me - and me personally - hooked.

In the end, it all boils down to my subjective experience and if the second episode had the fight I liked, while the third episode needs not to be spoken about, there was nothing in the first episode for me personally. So I focused more on the execution itself, and it was decent.
 
Tada Taro said:
I understand your point and am willing to acknowledge it. I do admit that I have no practical knowledge of the "magical girl" genre, so when I said that the first episode of PMMM did exactly what I expected the pilot of a magical girl show to do, I meant that all the expectations I had were met. I engaged it with a vague idea of what it should do, and it did precisely that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean as I said at the beginning, this wasn't really about your personal take. This is just something that I see a lot, and given my previous comment I felt that this was a good opportunity to explore it. I apologize if you thought this was an attack on you or something of the kind, it wasn't my intent at all.
 
You know, the first time i saw Madoka, i thought Mami was really suspicious. Because he was being to helpful with Kb, who is, like, obviously fucking evil.

This went on until her friendship declaration at the end of the third chapter. Then i thought "ah, he isn't an evil collaborationist, she is just dumb"

And then she inmediately died.

I found it hilarious.
 
Last edited:
Broken Base said:
I mean as I said at the beginning, this wasn't really about your personal take. This is just something that I see a lot, and given my previous comment I felt that this was a good opportunity to explore it. I apologize if you thought this was an attack on you or something of the kind, it wasn't my intent at all.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, it is not a Puella Magi Madoka Magica discussion thread, and I don't place careful dissection of the entire work as my primary aim. If anything, I'm more interesting in producing something other people can find enjoyable. While I've nothing against you discussing this particular topic here, I believe there are other threads more suited it. If this is not the case, I apologize.
 
Broken25 said:
You know, the first time i saw Madoka, i thought Mami was really suspicious. Because he was being to helpful with Kb, who is, like, obviously fucking evil.

This went on until her friendship declaration at the end of the third chapter. Then i thought "ah, he isn't an evil collaboationist, she is just dumb"

And then she inmediately died.

I found it hilarious.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My initial reaction to Mami was tepid, at most, but she did grew on me. Her last moment actually made me see her in a new light - as a girl that is trying to struggle with loneliness by acting "cool" - which is a thing I've actually seen schoolgirls do (a schoolgirl, actually, and she's much better now).

So, the time when my empathy for Mami reached its peak was right before the moment when Mami got nommed.
 
Broken Base said:
Okay, now to be serious, now that we're here and my point can't do any cross-contamination of views, I kind of want to touch on why I feel like PMMM's opening isn't much like the typical magical girl show. Not to call anyone out, but because this is something I hear a lot and I want to dissect it a bit. So, I've seem quite a few of them and thus am going to cite examples. Bear with me.

There are a few angles you can view this from. You can view it from a plot perspective- for instance, Kyubey's offer condition is rather unique; there is an exchange of sorts upon the typical agreement to become a magical girl, but it's typically along the lines of "These people are in danger, and you can save them!" (trailblazer Sailor Moon is the perfect example of this- "The world's in danger!" and "Do you want to save your friend? Then here's what you need to do!") There aren't many shows I can think of where there's some concrete deal in play.

But let's set that aside because it isn't what I want to talk about. I want to talk about tone and how scenes are framed to create a tonal impression. In general, magical girl shows can have dark things happening to them on the first episode (Heartcatch Precure has somebody seemingly die), but the general tone of the first episode is that of cheerful optimism. Things are good and will continue to be good, and then I get a power which I can use to protect people and save the world! And even any relevant tragic elements have a distant, fantastical quality to them- in Heartcatch's case, it's in a dream, and there is the fantastical nature of the fight to soften any sort of emotional blow. Which of course, exempts the first scene in PMMM from this as well. The thing is, this extends well beyond the first scene. The tone and dialogue of the show in general are often very melodramatic; nothing wrong with that, I love melodrama and MG series have plenty of it (Sailor Moon S and Sailor Moon are incredible melodramic, and Fresh Pretty Cure uses melodrama better than pretty much any other MG series I've seen) but the melodrama is utilized to contrast light and darkness (not to mention that for Fresh and Sailor Moon it's the culmination of arcs at the middle/end of the season), and I wouldn't say it's used that way here. It's just... used to deliver the story. And there's nothing wrong with being a melodramatic show, it's just typically not how a MG show spends its first episode.

The lighting of the show in general is pretty interesting. There is a decent amount of utilization of shadows and darkness in the first couple episodes of Madoka Magica- a lot of the stuff with Homura, for instance, has part of her face in shadow, and there's also an entire portion set in an basement(?) area of a mall. This isn't really something Magical Girl anime tends to do. Lighting isn't really used that way; the lighting tends to be relatively bright and chipper, to properly match the mood the show is going for. You don't really get that here. Music is the same way- Yuki Kaijura is an amazing artist, but her music typically doesn't really capture a cheerful, magical girl feel. There's some sharp, bright songs in the first couple episodes like Credens Justifiam (Mami's theme), but there's a big difference. Kaijura does "serious music" for lack of a better way to put it, and MG tunes are typically sharp and poppy and try to get caught in your head a bit. The music often colors the tone of the show, and the music in Madoka is simply more.. serious, than in your typical Magical Girl anime.

Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If Madoka wants to be a serious magical girl show for adults, it should do its thing. I like the show quite a bit for being a darker MG series with an adult audience (around the same niche as Nanoha). But I wouldn't say that the show really has a typical MG opening, because there's too many things that don't quite fit, that don't necessarily need to be the case- Nanoha comes pretty close to having 3 episodes super close to Cardcaptor Sakura in content and tone, for instance, despite being for adults.

There we go, I've said my piece, take it for what its worth.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well to be fair with Nanoha, at least for the first season, they didn't set out to make a more mature MG series. It just turned out to be popular with an older age group and they adjusted accordingly.
 
Tada Taro said:
I mean, it is not a Puella Magi Madoka Magica discussion thread, and I don't place careful dissection of the entire work as my primary aim. If anything, I'm more interesting in producing something other people can find enjoyable. While I've nothing against you discussing this particular topic here, I believe there are other threads more suited it. If this is not the case, I apologize.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, I wasn't necessary intending a detailed discussion of the point, I mostly just wanted to make the point as a clarification of what I said earlier, and have it be done. That being said, looking back 3 pages in fanfic discussion (since that can involve discussing the work) and 5 pages in Media, the only thread I see is the PMMM Ideas thread, which wouldn't have strictly been appropriate.

But really it's immaterial. Your thread, your rules, and I should respect that. All I can do is apologize, I believed it was moderately appropriate but was wrong, and hope we can move on.

(I'd delete the post but it's too late for that now so)
 
Last edited:
Broken Base said:
I mean, I wasn't necessary intending a detailed discussion of the point, I mostly just wanted to make the point as a clarification of what I said earlier, and have it be done. That being said, looking back 3 pages in fanfic discussion (since that can involve discussing the work) and 5 pages in Media, the only thread I see is the PMMM Ideas thread, which wouldn't have strictly been appropriate.

But really it's immaterial. Your thread, your rules, and I should respect that. All I can do is apologize, I believed it was moderately appropriate but was wrong, and hope we can move on.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is nothing to apologize for, then. I actually find presence of someone who knows about various works of the genre quite beneficial to the discussion as a whole. I was merely confused with the essence of the post and wanted to make my own position more clear.

In short: thank you for the insight. All is well and nice.
 
LostDeviljho said:
cipher in german. never relevant in the show itself so it's not spoilers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Someone already told that, but again thanks for pointing that out.

Again, what cracked me the most is that the first three letters look so much like Russian for "WAT" - like, literally the meme.
 
Tada Taro said:
This genuinely makes me feel empathetic towards her, while also solidifying my conviction that something bad in inevitable to happen to her. Something like a dire wound they'd make her retire as a magical girl because cruel irony is the kind of irony I expect from this show.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

'Is inevitable', not 'in inevitable'.

Tada Taro said:
The two make a promise that if Madoka doesn't decide what her wish is by the end of the fight, they'll wish for a big party with a cake. Because that's what you use an all-powerful wish for. A cake. Now, I do understand this is silly and only half-serious, but I need to be a petty dick from time to time to keep my levels of utter spite and contempt in check. It's a condition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh damnit I completely forgot the cake thing. Now I am annoyed at the show again.

Tada Taro said:
… Tune in next week for my new show: "Let's Blind Watch Whiskey." In which you get to watch me drink myself into the state of utter blindness, so I can drive away the horrible images of seeing a schoolgirl getting her head eaten.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To be honest, that scene never worked for me.

It's clearly trying to drive home that Witches Are Serious Business and fighting them risks death, but instead of making Witches look dangerous, it has Mami magically incompetent. Compare the Witches we have seen thus far: is there any sign of standard weakpoints? Not really. This is critical, because with all this trippy shit with them, Mami clearly believing she has killed the Witch for quite literally no in universe reason makes it quite hard to believe she would survive long enough to be The Veteran.

And then not only does she assume it's dead, but she gets her head bit off because... She freezes. A Witch does something freaky- as usual- and she freezes in place and allows it to kill her. Doesn't even try to dodge or whatever.

Had she died trying to save one of the other girls, say, the scene coulda worked for me. But as is, it so obviously happens to push that emotional effect and not because it's logical that I was basically sitting there not going 'oh no, poor Mami!' but rather 'the fuck. Writer, this makes no damn sense and makes Mami look like an incompetent novice, not some skilled veteran.'
 
Terrabrand said:
It's clearly trying to drive home that Witches Are Serious Business and fighting them risks death, but instead of making Witches look dangerous, it has Mami magically incompetent. Compare the Witches we have seen thus far: is there any sign of standard weakpoints? Not really. This is critical, because with all this trippy shit with them, Mami clearly believing she has killed the Witch for quite literally no in universe reason makes it quite hard to believe she would survive long enough to be The Veteran.

And then not only does she assume it's dead, but she gets her head bit off because... She freezes. A Witch does something freaky- as usual- and she freezes in place and allows it to kill her. Doesn't even try to dodge or whatever.

Had she died trying to save one of the other girls, say, the scene coulda worked for me. But as is, it so obviously happens to push that emotional effect and not because it's logical that I was basically sitting there not going 'oh no, poor Mami!' but rather 'the fuck. Writer, this makes no damn sense and makes Mami look like an incompetent novice, not some skilled veteran.'
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's Wog that if Mami hadn't had 2 people to show off in front of she wouldn't have been caught off guard. She lost her head figuratively and then literally.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It's Wog that if Mami hadn't had 2 people to show off in front of she wouldn't have been caught off guard. She lost her head figuratively and then literally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I get that was the intent. But that really isn't what they show. She does show off, yes, but there are basic good practices she would have needed to develop to survive what we have already seen of Witches in a general sense, to be The Veteran One, and instead she behaves in a manner contrived to bring about her death by being vulnerable to this Witch's particular weirdness, when all Witches appear to be weird. If she didn't have rubrics for, you know, dodge rolling in response to surprises or the like, she'd be long dead. And the diversity of Witches means she had no reason to believe she had killed the Witch, because they are completely unstandardized in forms.

Her freezing because of surprises is the exact kind of instinct that would get her killed. Her assuming she knows for sure how to kill the Witch would get her killed. She does both of these anyways. Because the fist of the author wants her dead to make a point.
 
Terrabrand said:
Had she died trying to save one of the other girls, say, the scene coulda worked for me. But as is, it so obviously happens to push that emotional effect and not because it's logical that I was basically sitting there not going 'oh no, poor Mami!' but rather 'the fuck. Writer, this makes no damn sense and makes Mami look like an incompetent novice, not some skilled veteran.'
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think it is somewhat logical. Mami is really clearly not thinking clearly in this scene- she's elated at having somebody that will fight alongside her and so doesn't see this witch as an obsticle, but as a diversion. She wants to get this fight done, because afterwards Madoka agreed to make her wish and she'll have a friend. So she gets sloppy and doesn't think things through because she tries to finish the fight as quickly as possible. Makes sense to me. Even Veterans are prone to weakness and sloppiness at times, or they'd never get killed by a witch, and assuredly they do.
 
Terrabrand said:
'Is inevitable', not 'in inevitable'.



Oh damnit I completely forgot the cake thing. Now I am annoyed at the show again.



To be honest, that scene never worked for me.

It's clearly trying to drive home that Witches Are Serious Business and fighting them risks death, but instead of making Witches look dangerous, it has Mami magically incompetent. Compare the Witches we have seen thus far: is there any sign of standard weakpoints? Not really. This is critical, because with all this trippy shit with them, Mami clearly believing she has killed the Witch for quite literally no in universe reason makes it quite hard to believe she would survive long enough to be The Veteran.

And then not only does she assume it's dead, but she gets her head bit off because... She freezes. A Witch does something freaky- as usual- and she freezes in place and allows it to kill her. Doesn't even try to dodge or whatever.

Had she died trying to save one of the other girls, say, the scene coulda worked for me. But as is, it so obviously happens to push that emotional effect and not because it's logical that I was basically sitting there not going 'oh no, poor Mami!' but rather 'the fuck. Writer, this makes no damn sense and makes Mami look like an incompetent novice, not some skilled veteran.'
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She didn't freeze though, the clip was slown down (it was moving much quicker than shown and gave her all of a second and a half to react)
 
Broken Base said:
I think it is somewhat logical. Mami is really clearly not thinking clearly in this scene- she's elated at having somebody that will fight alongside her and so doesn't see this witch as an obsticle, but as a diversion. She wants to get this fight done, because afterwards Madoka agreed to make her wish and she'll have a friend. So she gets sloppy and doesn't think things through because she tries to finish the fight as quickly as possible. Makes sense to me. Even Veterans are prone to weakness and sloppiness at times, or they'd never get killed by a witch, and assuredly they do.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If you want to discuss this somewhere else, I'd be fine with that, but at this point we are veering into the kind of discussion that would involve spoilers.

I stand by that the Fist of The Author is far too glaring and undermines the attempt to pitch Mami The Veteran, and I'm leaving it at that for this thread at least.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top