I agree in principle but as long as we don't get episodes dedicated to nothing but side-characters fighting other side-characters, I'm willing to deal. "Normal-ish high school boy goes to interesting places, meets exotic people, sees impressive things, and gets into a ton of fights" is a concept I can get behind.
Is Kamijou Touma a Bad Main Character?
- Thread starter Dragonskyt
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I agree in principle but as long as we don't get episodes dedicated to nothing but side-characters fighting other side-characters, I'm willing to deal. "Normal-ish high school boy goes to interesting places, meets exotic people, sees impressive things, and gets into a ton of fights" is a concept I can get behind.
Screw you, the Battle Royale Arc was the best.
Looking at the wiki summary, seems like I will seriously be missing Touma and Mikoto for that arc.
This is just like Bleach all over again.
Narrator 1
Still Ordinary
As an addendum to my previous post, the movie has an even better example of Touma's "normalcy".
One of the movie's villainesses is a young girl whose main method of attack is throwing metal discs around that she then detonates from a remove using her psychic powers. These discs are seen earlier in the movie overturning armored cars with their explosions.
Later, when Touma confronts her, she throws these discs at him and they explode on him; and given how he's reeling back and getting lacerated, he's clearly not absorbing the blows with Imagine Breaker. There isn't much of an allowance either for her holding back and not trying to kill him since she actually pulls a gun on him later on. Instead, he tanks the explosions and, with blood still flowing out of his wounds, breaks her illusions.
One of the movie's villainesses is a young girl whose main method of attack is throwing metal discs around that she then detonates from a remove using her psychic powers. These discs are seen earlier in the movie overturning armored cars with their explosions.
Later, when Touma confronts her, she throws these discs at him and they explode on him; and given how he's reeling back and getting lacerated, he's clearly not absorbing the blows with Imagine Breaker. There isn't much of an allowance either for her holding back and not trying to kill him since she actually pulls a gun on him later on. Instead, he tanks the explosions and, with blood still flowing out of his wounds, breaks her illusions.
notthepenguins
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Here's my question: is this ever actually commented on, in setting? Does he realize he's magically super tough? Do people ever express incredulity that he could survive such a thing, etc? Because this to me sounds like plot armor out the ass rather than some sort of 'subtle' author indication of him being superhuman.
Narrator 1
Still Ordinary
That's actually a rather tough question to answer. The author actually tries to have it both ways.
He can be supernaturally tough as per the incidents I mentioned in one scene and be perfectly vulnerable to mundane means (such as poisoning, being shot, etc.) in the next. In more lighthearted off-the-record books, the author through Touma jokes that he could actually be a clone or cyborg, though nothing in the actual series hints at either.
Later allies and antagonists postulate that Imagine Breaker itself possesses a will that helps Touma survive his encounters with higher-leveled espers and magicians even as it "nudges" him into those conflicts in the first place, but again, those theories are from the mouths of unreliable narrators and can thus be dismissed at least partially as bullshit. Touma's been in conflicts such as war zones and building sieges where Imagine Breaker would provide no benefit whatsoever, for example.
Given this author, though, I'd honestly say "plot armor" and call it a day.
In regards to your other question, what further complicates the matter is that, up until relatively recently, Touma has been notoriously incurious as to the nature of what he and his right hand actually are. For the first two dozen books, his attitude was explicitly that of regarding it merely as a tool to be used to protect what he felt he needed to protect. Lately, he's realized that he actually needs to know what's actually going on with Imagine Breaker as his enemies have started gunning for him and it directly, but given the tightly packed nature of the narrative, he's never been given the chance to actually find out the answers for himself without being fed bullshit by people trying to use him or being thrust headfirst into another crisis.
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Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
I can already see the reasons people stating why Touma is a terrible MC so I won't regurgitate.
But I can say why he's garbage here in the West, especially amongst the likes of Tatsuya Shiba, Kira 'Jesus' Yamato, and Kirito.
But I can say why he's garbage here in the West, especially amongst the likes of Tatsuya Shiba, Kira 'Jesus' Yamato, and Kirito.
- OP, High school, pacifism, relatability, and Girls Girls Girls.
- As Gundam SEED Destiny proved, Japanese LOVE overpowered MCs with no flaws whatsoever plus with a relatable name, appearance, and personality. Let's delve into more about this and why Japan loves OP characters.
- Japan doesn't have an amazing military of their own(JDSF is more of a glorified National Guard with American hand-me-downs) and thus rely on the US for protection form N.Korea and China if they get funny. It's why they make Japan so OP, it's to stroke their own ego because they know the real truth of that they ain't shit without the US. I mean, England does it with Dr. Who from time to time(See: Torchwood and their antics, like nuking an Alien ship out of orbit) but in Japan it's practically flagrant. Plus, because they don't have a military, they aren't exposed to more military storylines because... how can we relate?? What's so special of something we know doesn't deal with us?
- Anyways, Japanese life is...pretty terrible unless you're loaded and in a stress-free job. Everyone is a 9 to 9er. Cubicles. Have to suck up to some old boss or else get thrown out on the street. For them, life after high school is death. They can't do anything else because the decisions they made in high school impacted what they are now. Tokyo University is the only place employers go to for new blood. If you don't get in there, you're second-rate. This is why High sChool is so glorified. It's a return to a simpler time. A loss before innocence. That and sells to degenerates in their basements or dark rooms for da pantsu.
- Now for OPness and relatability: as I mentioned before, Japanese life can be pretty stressful...even DURING school. You need to get like, 95% and above to get set. You need to do Cram School to hanker down on what you know as that extra prep. You need to be in clubs for extra curricular stuff for your school resume. What the mainstream audience want is the extraordinary, the fantasical, the wish fulfillment because they know that will never EVER happen to them. They don't want to watch/read on someone like them going through the failures they may go through. It's too damn depressing and close to home.
- Now for Girls Girls Girls. Japan is a very reserved and polite society. You can't be too upfront and honest or else you'll be rude and stuff. It's why we see so much bowing. Respect is being tossed around like cash in a strip club in Vegas. You can't show your emotions or release them. It's why we see them not make a lot of Facial contact a lot. And now back to Girls Girls Girls, which ties into this. Dating, as even here out West know, is HAAAAAARD. Girls IRL are much different than the ladies we see in most Japanese fiction, because hey...THEY'RE REAL PEOPLE. For the hardcores and mainstreamers this can hit close to home because 'Waaaaah I can't get that girl because she's too hard to understaaaaaand' and trying to engage in a relationship is too hard and, adds stress on top of their normal daily lives. Thus they want waifus, and boy do they want them. That is why we see so many harems. It's a buffet/wine taster! Only pick your choice of waifu.
Dragonskyt
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About the GirlsGirlsGirls subject.
Wasn't the original purpose of Ecchi, Harem and easy romance to work against the declining birthrate?
Could be wrong though, but I remember reading about it somewhere.
Wasn't the original purpose of Ecchi, Harem and easy romance to work against the declining birthrate?
Could be wrong though, but I remember reading about it somewhere.
Duburu
Simurgh Survivor
He actually have really good luck, It his enemy that have bad luck. I chalk it all up to the author not knowing what Luck definition mean
Let's be fair, the "girls" thing seems pretty damn popular here in the West too.
His luck in fights seems decent. His luck outside them is admittedly pretty terrible.
His luck in fights seems decent. His luck outside them is admittedly pretty terrible.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Yet it's only speeding the birthrate decline. People are heading towards waifus than IRL.
Triggerhappy
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I agree completely that Japan is near the top of the list of nations which whip out their nationalism boners at the drop of a hat. Emphasizing one's own country is a pretty standard conceit in fiction, simply one that Japan takes to ludicrous excess. I think the US is guilty of this as well, our nationalism stroking is just covered up by the fact that yes it really is that big.
That said . . .
Pedantry incoming!
Uhm, what? I mean, what? Japan doesn't exactly need any help defending itself from North Korea. And while the Chinese navy is beefier they'd really rather not maul their fleet for no reason all saber rattling aside. Nor is Japan exactly using American hand me downs these days anymore than any other country that buys or licenses foreign military hardware.
Pedantry ended!
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Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
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Backfired that one didn'it?
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This is such an American view that, upon reading it, a pair of crying bald eagles carrying assault rifles burst from my computer screen and began to sing the American national anthem.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
What? No. I have never seen anything even close to suggesting this.
Japan embraced harem/ecchi etc because Japan has a terrible attitude towards women and because it made money.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
True, Japan is really sexist. They have that 'Get in the kitchen' mentality too.
teslashark
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The civil war needs more Touma action and less Shiage showing off plot armor.
teslashark
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It isn't too American.
Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
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I don't know. It's pretty American. Or at least it reflects on a certain American fantasy that our allies are helpless without us. There is some truth to this, of course, many nations would have trouble if their biggest ally spontaneously disappeared, but it's considerably more complicated and much more nuanced than that.
teslashark
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The fantasy is shared with every country that has a grudge against a U.S. ally. Every Chinese military scenario that involved landing any amount of personnel on Japanese soil, or shooting any vessel with a Japanese callsign ends with "Okay, now what should we do with these guys from Yokosuke, Okinawa and Guam?".
Triggerhappy
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Okay. Let me rephrase that. It's perfectly American. Just not uniquely American.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
I don't hate him (or like him), but this sums him up all too well. At least guys like Vash and Kenshin had some inner conflict to go with their Protect People. And personalities. But... I haven't tried the light novels yet so maybe the manga and anime are portraying him wrong.
The truth is, I've noticed the main character is frequently the most boring and people often end up liking the side characters more. Which means that series that let the main character steal the show too much had better be able to break that first trend.
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I really need you to understand that you are absolutely talking out of your ass. It's a great collection of stereotypes that people are known to wheel out when attempting to comment on Japan, but it's not reality. It's just something you said.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
But I've seen it in a lot of anime series. Like us in the US, they also conform to stereotypes.