Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Eh, i'd find that easier to ignore, used to drowning out bad music at work.
Also much shorter
Is Black Panther actually insulting? A Chinese review
- Thread starter S.P.Requiem
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Eh, i'd find that easier to ignore, used to drowning out bad music at work.
Also much shorter
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
I honeslty thought that the world building was kind of botched, since this futuristic society has so many ass backwards traditions that anyone can become King, Vibranium is a Do-Everything-element, and if that area of the world has that many people using the internet how does it remain scot free from internet traffic.
Killmonger is literally BLM to the practically facist/radical levels(I was expecting him to say 'lets enslave white people and teach them a lesson' during the flick, but at least he doesn't go that heinous, just kill them all), T'Chala's arc in this movie("I guess I should open my borders whoops". The only scene this really manifested during the arc, when he met with his Ancestors I thought was the better parts of the film. In fact, all the Sand-Dream vision segments were the best parts) is a weaker compared to his arc in Civil War(which details how revenge can utterly destroy you and those around you. He saw it manifest in Erik, but he didn't comment on it. An indictment on Coogler's part), Klaue was reduced to a joke, and by god the sheer and utter luck Killmonger had going in his way(being able to kill Klaue and turn him int othe one guy who had a grudge against him, then take advantage of the Right to Kingship and T'Chala's stupidity and more) was super contrived. Oh, and T'Chala outside of his suit and flower-power is a wet noodle(Steve as his military training. Tony his ingeuinity. Peter his heroism. Thor his years of experience in battle when you take away their suits/weapons. T'Challa? Almost gets killed twice for the sake of a barbaric tradition').
I can see why people were loving it, because of the majority black cast, black casting crew, and the meta-ness of essentially a power-fantasy(I've seen so many young African Americans preach Wakanda Forever and see it even in sports leages, in NBA players Wendell Carter, Jr and Donovan Mitchell). But you should aim a story for its merits for its, well, story, and not for the production.
I'm willing to be educated, but watching twice, and the length of the movie(30 minutes too long IMO) and the god awful CGI in places(you know the ones), really turned me off. The Russos did a much better job with T'Challa and Black Panther was one of the reasons why I loved Civil War so much.
I can see why the Chinese reviewer though made his points. This is a film made for the AA crowd, not strickly African even though ti had big numbers in theaters.
Killmonger is literally BLM to the practically facist/radical levels(I was expecting him to say 'lets enslave white people and teach them a lesson' during the flick, but at least he doesn't go that heinous, just kill them all), T'Chala's arc in this movie("I guess I should open my borders whoops". The only scene this really manifested during the arc, when he met with his Ancestors I thought was the better parts of the film. In fact, all the Sand-Dream vision segments were the best parts) is a weaker compared to his arc in Civil War(which details how revenge can utterly destroy you and those around you. He saw it manifest in Erik, but he didn't comment on it. An indictment on Coogler's part), Klaue was reduced to a joke, and by god the sheer and utter luck Killmonger had going in his way(being able to kill Klaue and turn him int othe one guy who had a grudge against him, then take advantage of the Right to Kingship and T'Chala's stupidity and more) was super contrived. Oh, and T'Chala outside of his suit and flower-power is a wet noodle(Steve as his military training. Tony his ingeuinity. Peter his heroism. Thor his years of experience in battle when you take away their suits/weapons. T'Challa? Almost gets killed twice for the sake of a barbaric tradition').
I can see why people were loving it, because of the majority black cast, black casting crew, and the meta-ness of essentially a power-fantasy(I've seen so many young African Americans preach Wakanda Forever and see it even in sports leages, in NBA players Wendell Carter, Jr and Donovan Mitchell). But you should aim a story for its merits for its, well, story, and not for the production.
I'm willing to be educated, but watching twice, and the length of the movie(30 minutes too long IMO) and the god awful CGI in places(you know the ones), really turned me off. The Russos did a much better job with T'Challa and Black Panther was one of the reasons why I loved Civil War so much.
I can see why the Chinese reviewer though made his points. This is a film made for the AA crowd, not strickly African even though ti had big numbers in theaters.
- Location
- Mons Regius
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- He/Him
This idea that technological progress equals societal progress is pretty silly though, so it's not really a problem of worldbuilding IMO.
No. Or rather, he would be Black Lives Matter as Fox News sees it, because he sure didn't mention police brutality.
There are way more appropriate comparisions to existing black nationalist movements, BLM is a lazy and incorrect one.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Okoye sure mentions it when calling outside civilizations "uncivilized".
It was alluded to, since Erik was orphaned. In Oakland. Just a year after the Rodney King riots in '92.
And I frankly don't trust most News outlets since they veer towards either the right or the left too often(Faux, CNN, Washington/Huffington Post). I like BBC the most since they seem neutral and objective on things.
I haven't heard of a Black nationalist movement advocating for world domination or supremacy, unless they're in some pocket of the world I never knew existed.
Point is, the Chinese fellow made a point that BP is, well, a bit of cultural appropriation since it was made for a specific audience. People would be crying for blood if 'Red Dragon' was made today, yet we praise BP and the Oscar's are slurping it up.
I would make an allusion to a drink, but that may draw racial connotations sooooo...
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- Mons Regius
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- He/Him
Because unreliable or biased characters in media aren't a thing? We saw that she is so loyal to her role as Dora Milaje that she would serve even an objectively bad king, her judgement is not perfect or meant to be taken as gospel.
Nakia and Shuri are probably the most progressive Wakandans of the whole movie.
That doesn't change the fact that the BLM comparision is still inaccurate.
This would be a case of "educate thyself", because things like black supremacism and some of the more radical members and teaching of the Nation of Islam have existed for decades in the US since before BLM. You may say you do not trust news outlets, but comparision of BLM with black supremacism is a direct example of propaganda dissiminated by some media.
I mean, you would need to prove first why it is cultural appropriation before accusing people of hypocrisy, so....
tankdrop24
Tread First into Hell
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- The Center of the Universe: Toronto, Canada
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- He/Him
I don't know, I think if BLM were at one point a government Black Ops organization responsible for destabilizing foreign countries FOX would be a bit more positive about them.
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- Strip-mall Hell
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- She/They
Hold on let me go through my checklist.
Saying the white dudes managed to do better then actual Africans and African Americans, check. A comparison to BLM is so bad it physically hurts, check. An unreasonable amount of value placed on worldbuilding and plot holes and little to no mention of anything else, check. Zeroing in on the "primitive" parts of Wakandan society and ignoring how their quality of life is arguably the best in the setting for all of the citizens (and their advances and sciences, and the humanitarian efforts, etc), check. Completely ignoring the opinions of most of the black community and implying those who like it are dumb, check. "You're the REAL racists", check. All you need to do is complain about spears and I'll win a prize
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Russo's did the spears better since they made them into rifles.Hold on let me go through my checklist.
Saying the white dudes managed to do better then actual Africans and African Americans, check. A comparison to BLM is so bad it physically hurts, check. An unreasonable amount of value placed on worldbuilding and plot holes and little to no mention of anything else, check. Zeroing in on the "primitive" parts of Wakandan society and ignoring how their quality of life is arguably the best in the setting for all of the citizens (and their advances and sciences, and the humanitarian efforts, etc), check. Completely ignoring the opinions of most of the black community and implying those who like it are dumb, check. "You're the REAL racists", check. All you need to do is complain about spears and I'll win a prize
So yeah, Coogler was on a power high. Russos did better.
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- Strip-mall Hell
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Thanks! Unfortunately all I won was tickets to The Last Jedi remake
Quantumsheep
Rank Amateur
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- _
Yeah, I really loved how they reduced a powerful nation grappling with interesting questions of how to balance their own sovereign interests with those of the rest of the world to 'Of course we'll fight a war to try and save this one guy we don't even know on Captain America's say-so with no questions asked. (We literally don't even see Cap make the request, their total cooperation is so assumed). It's only our people whose lives we're going to be trading in order to buy time for this dude, why should we be part of the conversation about whether we're doing this or if it's even a good idea?'
I especially appreciated how they were then depicted as having no military assets or defense procedures besides a big not-so impenetrable barrier and massing infantry out in a field a la a poor man's Return of the King, as if armed attack hovercraft aren't a thing we've literally seen that they have. Real awesome worldbuilding there. Great consistency.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Wait what?
Vibranium spears were described as "sonic canons cable of destroying a MBT" by Killmonger in the scene where he is planning to ship them out.
Crimson Flight
华裔机甲迷
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- Victoria, Australia
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- He/Him
So if I was a Chinese-American director who made "Red Dragon", a superhero movie that dealt with the Chinese-American experience and possibly also parts of the greater Asian-American experience by making use of a fantastical Chinese-influenced setting (say, something akin to a Lanfang Republic that survived to the modern day), I'm engaging in cultural appropriation?
I'm really not seeing it. I don't think you know what cultural appropriation actually is here.
My two pence, as a neutral-ish observer (middle-aged Londoner, no dog in this fight)...
I think, certainly having read this thread, that the production and worldbuilding of Black Panther had its merits, and I certainly don't think the OP is right in suggesting that the movie is racist in its depiction of an advanced African society, particularly given the range of cultures represented by Wakanda.
I do, however, struggle to see quite what the fuss is about Black Panther, either negative or positive. I don't think a lot of the criticisms are fair (its a good superhero movie, thats all) but I also don't see where all the excessive praise is coming from (its a good superhero movie, thats all). It was a competently made, highly enjoyable movie, but it was no Winter Soldier, in my opinion. I certainly don't see what makes it worthy of a best movie Oscar nomination (or a SAG awards best movie win, for that matter).
Personally, I'd say that the character of Black Panther himself was better served by his supporting role in Civil War - arguably a meatier and more interesting take on the character, particularly as a counterpoint to the villain and their respective revenge arcs - than in his own movie, where he was rather lumped with a somewhat generic superhero character arc. On the other hand, I did enjoy some of the supporting characters in BP - Shuri, for instance, was great!
I think, certainly having read this thread, that the production and worldbuilding of Black Panther had its merits, and I certainly don't think the OP is right in suggesting that the movie is racist in its depiction of an advanced African society, particularly given the range of cultures represented by Wakanda.
I do, however, struggle to see quite what the fuss is about Black Panther, either negative or positive. I don't think a lot of the criticisms are fair (its a good superhero movie, thats all) but I also don't see where all the excessive praise is coming from (its a good superhero movie, thats all). It was a competently made, highly enjoyable movie, but it was no Winter Soldier, in my opinion. I certainly don't see what makes it worthy of a best movie Oscar nomination (or a SAG awards best movie win, for that matter).
Personally, I'd say that the character of Black Panther himself was better served by his supporting role in Civil War - arguably a meatier and more interesting take on the character, particularly as a counterpoint to the villain and their respective revenge arcs - than in his own movie, where he was rather lumped with a somewhat generic superhero character arc. On the other hand, I did enjoy some of the supporting characters in BP - Shuri, for instance, was great!
Hey. Hey You. Yes, You, right there. You live in the modern day Babylon, a decadent city of bankers and international finance made rich by your island's oppression and conquest of the rest of the world, by bleeding india dry. Your London is only a great city because of the things that Black Panther are a direct response to.
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- Georgia, US
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- He/Him
Well, you're kind of missing a massive amount of cultural context.
As others have said Black Panther is fundamentally a film made for the African-American community and as such a Middle-Aged Londoner isn't intrinsically going to understand how important it is socially.
Also, um... have you tried reading reviews for it?
I mean, it has a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes so I'm sure there are a bunch of critics who would be happy to explain why they loved it so much.
TBH this post seems really clueless, it's rather clear that you didn't bother to look up reviews for it or understand the cultural context in which it gained so much acclaim. You obviously have the right to have a different opinion than the consensus but actually engaging with that consensus is probably a good idea, at least if you don't want people to get mad at you.
Um... while I disagree with their take I think this is rather disproportionate.
We can disagree with them without calling them colonists oppressors that come from a "modern-day Babylon". The worst thing about their post was that they were kind of clueless, your reaction would be better suited if they were aggressively racist.
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Maybe, but I'd rather err on the side of caution in situations like this rather than hope that he's maybe not, y'know.
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- Georgia, US
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- He/Him
I totally get that, but that wasn't really on the side of caution.
It's certainly reasonable to view their position with distrust and skepticism, at best it's rather ignorant and privileged. But that doesn't mean that immediately going all out is a good idea.
I don't want to appear to be tone policing you, I'm just a white guy and I understand that Black Panther just can't be as significant to me as it can be to an African-American person but there are better ways to handle it.
How would he take it if I said that I didn't see the point of Dunkirk, or some film important to british history and representation. Then again, It's the british, they're not exactly lacking for positive representation or stories made eby them for them.
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- France
@1812 I'm pretty sure that culturally, it was a huge thing for the African-American community that it was aimed at. As a middle-aged Londoner, I presume that you missed a decent part of the elements that others found so great about it. To be fair, I think that if the film had been set in Yugoslavia and everyone had been white it would have been far less well received by critics and fans. IMO this is a film that mostly resonates with African-Americans, and (to a lesser extent, maybe) black europeans, so I totally understand your opinion on its qualities as a superhero origin story (although I dislike superhero origin stories in general, so...).
But I still think that you've missed the point, and should probably talk to an African-American friend and ask them what they thought about it. They probably won't agree with you, unless they're a history graduate who hates superhero films.
It's what I did, after all - I'm also european and I'm not black, and yet I somehow manage to be aware of why people liked it so much!
Being nominated to awards isn't weird when you realize that it's getting respect for a whole bunch of visual and cultural references that you probably completely missed. It wasn't a subpar superhero origin story either, and it did have a great cast!
He probably was against slavery, but... Only probably. Considering the fact that he was alive and writing when slavery was abolished, you'd have expected him to participate in his colleagues' fight for abolition, or at least to approve it!
EDIT: I also think that your attitude is a little too agressive. I would prefer if you either ignored 1812 or tried to politely spread information, and then if they turn out to be a racist Brit it's time for the flamewar.
But I still think that you've missed the point, and should probably talk to an African-American friend and ask them what they thought about it. They probably won't agree with you, unless they're a history graduate who hates superhero films.
It's what I did, after all - I'm also european and I'm not black, and yet I somehow manage to be aware of why people liked it so much!
Being nominated to awards isn't weird when you realize that it's getting respect for a whole bunch of visual and cultural references that you probably completely missed. It wasn't a subpar superhero origin story either, and it did have a great cast!
Your avatar is literally this guy. And while as a proper Frenchman I have the utmost respect for the great thinkers who reshaped the world (the American copycats can kiss a baguette and learn to cook decent food!), he doesn't exactly have a squeaky-clean reputation when it comes to racism.
He probably was against slavery, but... Only probably. Considering the fact that he was alive and writing when slavery was abolished, you'd have expected him to participate in his colleagues' fight for abolition, or at least to approve it!
EDIT: I also think that your attitude is a little too agressive. I would prefer if you either ignored 1812 or tried to politely spread information, and then if they turn out to be a racist Brit it's time for the flamewar.
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Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Because if anyone badmouths BP, gotta defend it to the death somehow.
I thought Shuri was ok, along with the soundtrack was pretty cool.
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- Georgia, US
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I know right? It's completely bizarre that a hugely successful film with large amounts of critical approval would inspire passionate defense!
Come on dude, you have the right to your opinion but there should be no confusion as to why people would defend Black Panther so strongly.
Dude, it was an excellent movie. Of course people will defend it from criticisms.
I don't know what you're trying to achieve here, but you're starting to look a bit ridiculous.
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- Georgia, US
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That wasn't really clear, especially considering that you said you don't understand the fuss about it.... All I said was that I thought it was a good superhero film but not really Oscar worthy...
Which implies mediocrity more than anything.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
So why are people talking about their personal taste now?
Like if you wonder why BP merits an Oscar nomination, there are dozens of blog posts on well trafficked websites explaining it's merits.
If you disagree with them, fine but you're still off topic.
Like if you wonder why BP merits an Oscar nomination, there are dozens of blog posts on well trafficked websites explaining it's merits.
If you disagree with them, fine but you're still off topic.