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Iron Fist will be Loras Tyrell

all fictions said:
I was not one of the people who wanted an Asian or Asian-American playing Danny Rand, as I felt it changed an offensive cliché for another, in this case "all Asians know martial arts", but I still felt the complaint had a fairly comprehensible basis to it. As stated above, Iron Fist was literally created back in the 70s because its writer had seen martial arts movies with Bruce Lee in it and thought it would be cool to make a similar superhero in comic book form.
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I had these concerns too when I first heard of the idea. However given the many people who were proposing it were Asian American, and shaping it into how this race lifted Danny Rand was rediscovering his heritage, but realizing he was still an outsider by being American made the case for me. Still, like we were both saying this didn't have to be the only route to make up for the original flawed beginnings.

all fictions said:
That was fine and dandy as a premise 30 years ago, but nowadays, in the year of our Lord 2017, it hasn't aged well and thus reeks of 'white savior' (I mean, Danny was literally the most gifted student Lei Kung had ever trained in the original). Hence why I was disappointed that they played it straight instead of thinking it through and downplay the mighty whitey elements while keeping the story. Ultimately, it's not the fact that he learns martial arts or that he was raised in an Asian culture that is the problem, but that he is the best/chosen one at that.

It's not that it would be that hard to still have a white Iron Fist, they would just have to think through the implications. They could do it like the comics, and have the Iron Fist merely be one of the Immortal Weapons. Danny would not be the best, but one of the best, which isn't bad at all. And it would also mean the other Immortal Weapons wouldn't be reduced to lame side characters like the Bride of Nine Spiders was in the show.

Or, as someone suggested in this thread I believe, have Danny get his role by playing on his status as an outsider: since he is a child born from a rich family owning a huge multinational corporation, Danny is chosen as the perfect representative of Kun-Lun to act as a bridge between the rest of the world and this hidden place, kinda like Wonder Woman. He still gets his power, he still goes to New York and now has a clear reason to get Rand corporation back, he is still torn between his duty and his home, etc. It would still serve as a better showing of the role of the Iron Fist instead of what the show gave us, which was...standing around on a snowy mountain and/or unconvincigly fighting in the woods against Chinese mooks soldiers.
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I originally thought it was something like this as to why Danny returned to NYC. The Hand's shenanigans in Dare Devil got heard about back at the Air Temple and they needed Iron Fist to go kick ass. Or at the very least Danny felt waiting for his enemy to attack Kun-Lun was dumb and wanted to prove himself further by taking the fight to them.

So yeah this would have been a great premise for much of why the first few episodes needed to occur and a better showcase for Iron Fist's role.

all fictions said:
Also, the "years of training" happened pretty much offscreen.
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This was an important showcase of Danny's characterization that was sadly skipped. It also would have made it more striking when Davos showed up.

all fictions said:
Certainly, in between the moments I was trying not to fall asleep, there was an element of Stranger in a Strange Land, but do you know what the story most reminded me of? The 'lost prince/heir's rightful return' trope, present in the stories of Oedipus, Karna, and Moses among others. The boy was lost for a while, thought dead by his enemies, only to triumphally return years later and take back his birthright.
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And since we don't know who Danny was thanks to barely touching on virtually his entire life before his return from NYC we end up with this.

all fictions said:
Danny's different cultural upbringing and alienation is only barely relevant in the first episodes, like in how he prays to Buddha, and then this is promptly forgotten once he gets his inheritance back. I honestly thought there would be more representation of the Asian community of New York, just like Daredevil and Luke Cage showed us various ethnic communities before, but nope. We only get that brief New Year's celebration in the pilot, the appearance of the triad, and sometimes the writers remember to use Colleen correctly instead of making her look deranged with her wild characterization, but other than that, nada.
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The lost prince trope could have been down played, while leaving his time Kun'Lun to be more thoroughly explored in future seasons, by dipping into NYC's Asian community; showing his pull between cultures. Yet I could see the writers possibly wanting to avoid that in order to avoid bringing up even more accusations of cultural appropriation. However, if this is the case, then it's more of "let's not even bother discussing the original premise's issue and people will hopefully forget, right?"
 
White Wraith said:
Daredevil had some pretty intense fighting in the beginning and a show that's supposed to revolve around a super martial artist isn't faring well in comparison
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Yeah, but the fight choreography is still way better than Daredevil or Luke Cage, so it's not as though it's that bad.
Chloe Sullivan said:
Episode 4 and the utterly kindergarden level sophistication of the arguments on both sides of the "we should sell the medicine for profit/good" debate are infuriating.
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The Rand corporation's arguments were a bit more nuanced than that. They made the point that by selling it for profit, they could fund the creation of more and better drugs.
Numby said:
At this point, I'm kind of hoping that the siblings straight-up just bang each other. It'd be the most interesting thing to happen, and there's enough creepiness between the both of them for it to be possible.
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Please god no
Melancholeric said:
Doesn't matter what excuse is made up to justify it - randon white guy outdoing the entire order of holy warriors in their own sacred art they have been practicing ever since birth is a racist fantasy of people that want to see kung-fu tricks without having to relate to Asian protagonists. Iron Fist was created in times when racist crap infested everything, comicbooks included, and he's been carrying that stinking legacy behind him ever since, even when demand for that bullshit started fading.
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Yeah but this was always going to be a problem no matter how they made the series. It's right there in the premise. I mean yeah he could have been Asian, but then as others have mentioned they'd just be walking face first into the whole 'One asian super hero is kung fu master'. There were pretty major structural issues here as far as 'avoiding racism' goes and honestly the only way around it was to not make Iron Fist at all.
Fernandel said:
You know what I find so fucking galling?

It would have been so very easy to make The Immortal Iron Fist into the story of a first-, second-, or third-generation Asian immigrant to the United States whose parents struck it rich through their own hard work in the United States, who has now forgotten his heritage and humble origins, and doesn't really want to follow into daddy's footsteps of hard work and/or chafes under the societal/educational expectations of his rich family, and then unwillingly returns to China to remember his heritage, reconcile that with the mores of the country he was raised in, and becoming a goddamn superhero.

Hell, you wouldn't have had to change one iota of the story when it comes to wealth or class privilege, or the fact that the character comes from privilege, and it might have made for a great exploration of the modern Asian-American experience, both good and bad. It would have been a story about the immigrants that made the United States into the nation that it is today! Hell, immigrants from other nations could have emphasised with this universal narrative! I know I could have.

But no, they hired the dude from Game of Thrones. I suppose I shouldn't be really be upset that they decided to cast a white man, since he shares my ethnicity and that should apparently be reason enough for some people, but I'm gonna be honest here -- all its other flaws aside, I'm still pretty fucking disappointed and upset. Because this is a mistake that cannot be fixed unless they reboot the entire show, and I know that's not a risk Netflix is willing to take.
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Again, you've got a situation here where the one Asian Marvel character in modern cinematic history is a kung fu master. You're fooling yourself if you think that this wouldn't also draw a negative backlash.

Mind you I'm not against the idea and think Lewis Tan was almost assuredly the better pick, but I seriously doubt there was ever any way to avoid the racist character accusation.
 
the atom said:
Again, you've got a situation here where the one Asian Marvel character in modern cinematic history is a kung fu master. You're fooling yourself if you think that this wouldn't also draw a negative backlash.
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Yeah, but like, there's different sorts of negative backlashes. A negative backlash for making the martial arts-focused superhero an Asian-American character while also writing him with a compelling narrative of the immigrant's struggle while respecting the cultures the original story drew from would elicit a different sort of backlash from the audience (and presumably a much smaller one) than making the martial arts-focused superhero a white dude with unconvincing fight choreography, little respect for Asian cultures, and with very little understanding of the immigrant's story and their problems and struggle.

Negative backlash is kinda inevitable to some degree -- as an aspiring writer myself, I definitely know that -- but you can always minimise it by writing it better.
the atom said:
Yeah, but the fight choreography is still way better than Daredevil or Luke Cage, so it's not as though it's that bad.
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Luke Cage's fighting choreography was deliberately simplistic to emphasize Luke Cage's super strength and street brawler fighting style, and featured much better editing to sell Luke's overwhelming power and his attempt to be careful around his enemies and surroundings, and Daredevil's fight scenes, while often subpar, were full of fights in interesting situations caused by Matt's blindness and a strong host of supporting characters that were edited in ways that sold the fights as being far more interesting.

Like, there's more to a good fight scene than just choreography. One of the best "fight scenes" I remember seeing involves a dude running away from a druggie with a knife, and through the power of editing and filmmaking, they sell the protagonist's desperation and trickery to defeat a much stronger opponent believably and convincingly.



(Brick is an awesome film everyone should see, by the way.)

Like, when people talk about "great fight scene choreography", I am continuously reminded of the first time I saw John Wick in theatres. That movies definitely had awesome fight scene choreography, sure, but what was unusual about this movie and what it made it so good was that said good choreography was accompanied by excellent direction that allowed the audience to always clearly see what is going one, featured long action shots that created a sense of fluidity and motion, and supported it with pulse-pounding music, great cuts for scene changes (and not on the action), and superb editing that sold the decisive brutality of the main character's lethal skills and training.

The way Keanu Reeves moved as well -- equipping himself, moving swiftly, cutting pies on corners, scanning the environment and acquiring targets, handling weapons, using firearms drills, reloading, and combining martial arts with firearms -- sold me on the idea that this character was actually a supremely trained combatant. Iron Fist has none of that. Sure, its protagonist doesn't fight with firearms, but neither does the way he moves sell me on his skill.

...I'd link the scene from John Wick here, but quite honestly, I'm not sure I can. It's pretty gruesome, as it's pretty much eighty percent headshots and people being maimed and then swiftly executed at close range. It's the Red Circle scene, if anyone's interested.
 
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DracoDracul said:
Due to the editing, it's impossible to tell.
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The editing is about as bad as it is in both of those shows so it doesn't matter.
Fernandel said:
Yeah, but like, there's different sorts of negative backlashes. A negative backlash for making the martial arts-focused superhero an Asian-American character while also writing him with a compelling narrative of the immigrant's struggle while respecting the cultures the original story drew from would elicit a different sort of backlash from the audience (and presumably a much smaller one) than making the martial arts-focused superhero a white dude with unconvincing fight choreography, little respect for Asian cultures, and with very little understanding of the immigrant's story and their problems and struggle.

Negative backlash is kinda inevitable to some degree -- as an aspiring writer myself, I definitely know that -- but you can always minimise it by writing it better.
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You're aware you're kind of making the same argument as the people defending the racism in the actual version of the show right? 'You may think this is racist but you're actually all wrong! Ha!' is not a compelling defence.
Fernandel said:
Luke Cage's fighting choreography was deliberately simplistic to emphasize Luke Cage's super strength and street brawler fighting style, and featured much better editing to sell Luke's overwhelming power and his attempt to be careful around his enemies and surroundings, and Daredevil's fight scenes, while often subpar, were full of fights in interesting situations caused by Matt's blindness and a strong host of supporting characters that were edited in ways that sold the fights as being far more interesting.
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A big dude carefull-ing his way through a bunch of mooks is not exactly compelling. Certainly less compelling than even the jump-cut fights in this show. I didn't say anything about Daredevil.
Fernandel said:
Like, there's more to a good fight scene than just choreography. One of the best "fight scenes" I remember seeing involves a dude running away from a druggie with a knife, and through the power of editing and filmmaking, they sell the protagonist's desperation and trickery to defeat a much stronger opponent believably and convincingly.
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Yeah, cinematography obvious makes or breaks a fight, but my point is that other than Daredevil the fight cinematography throughout the preceding two series was....not that good.
 
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the atom said:
Yeah, cinematography obvious makes or breaks a fight, but my point is that other than Daredevil the fight cinematography throughout the preceding two series was....not that good.
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What is good cinematography is obviously somewhat subjective, but Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are NOT ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS.

Martial arts movies/shows get judged heavily on their Martial arts. this is also obvious.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
What is good cinematography is obviously somewhat subjective, but Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are NOT ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS.

Martial arts movies/shows get judged heavily on their Martial arts. this is also obvious.
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They're still action series, and action series also get judged on the quality of their action.
 
Well, Jessica Jones isn't a trained fighter, unlike Luke Cage who is a boxer, Daredevil who is a blind ninja, and Iron Fist who is a monk. She gets by on brute strength, being easily the strongest of the bunch.
 
1) Iron Fist, the character itself, is a tired racist cliche. The show did nothing to remedy this, which was an unfortunate over site no matter which route we think they could have gone.

2) The fight choreography was factually sloppy and poorly planned. Its known there was fighting between both the crew and talent about it on set, in addition to them being planned out practically on the spot and barely rehearsed. Now if it worked for you and the other shows failed then that's great for you @the atom, and I don't mean that in a condescending way at all. It just didn't work for the majority us.
 
Wi'se said:
2) The fight choreography was factually sloppy and poorly planned. Its known there was fighting between both the crew and talent about it on set, in addition to them being planned out practically on the spot and barely rehearsed. Now if it worked for you and the other shows failed then that's great for you @the atom, and I don't mean that in a condescending way at all. It just didn't work for the majority us.
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I never said it worked for me, just that it was a bit better than the preceding two series. I mean it's fine to think that the other two series were better, because they were, but let's not act like this is some new low for Marvel netflix in terms of fight choreography.
 
the atom said:
I never said it worked for me, just that it was a bit better than the preceding two series. I mean it's fine to think that the other two series were better, because they were, but let's not act like this is some new low for Marvel netflix in terms of fight choreography.
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The difference is in the premise. Nobody expected Jessica Jones or even Luke Cage to have crazy choreography, because that wasn't what those shows were about. You can argue that makes them boring, but it's beside the point. And even if both shows have poor fight scenes they are redeemed by their drama, or their characters, or their themes.

Iron Fist is a show about a man who can do mystical martial arts. "Good fights" is baked into the premise. It's what the show TRIED to offer, and in spite of that effort it's arguably just as bad as Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, who weren't as concerned about it. And it has little else to redeem it from the failure of it's central premise.
 
Luke cage's limited fight choreography was just as choppy and half-hearted as JJ's was, with slow, cumbersome, poorly framed jump-cut gesticulation between a primary actor with little to no fight training and stunt doubles who just had to jump away from him a lot while flailing.

DD's fight choreography is better shot and staged on top of actually just being better. It's still got "We only have $2 to make this work" jump-cut whip-editing for many episodes, but it's a hell of a lot less severe than the other four shows combined, and their attempts to pull out all the stops on their big setpiece "one-takes" pay off basically spectacularly. As far as TV shows go, DD actually has the best fight choreography I've probably ever seen, even counting the ridiculous kick flipping daredevil is super into. Charlie Cox is the only principal actor of the group who visibly appears to have actual had fight training outside of "Three weeks of pre-show prep."
 
It totally can. DD has plenty of those. Basically none of the other shows do. It's (generally) sloppily framed and sloppily filmed, and it barely squeaks out of the editing bay with any coherency. Why they chose to do it that way, only they know, but it's a bit disappointing that we can't get better executed sequences. It saps the drama away when Luke Cage and Jessica Jones make slow, ponderous, stilted, stiff-armed swings under shakey-cam dutch angles at guys who are visibly jumping away from them as the reaction to being hit.
 
the atom said:
I never said it worked for me, just that it was a bit better than the preceding two series. I mean it's fine to think that the other two series were better, because they were, but let's not act like this is some new low for Marvel netflix in terms of fight choreography.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
 
So, season 2. Checked out teh first episode, and yeah, Danny is still a unrepentant stupidhead.

*sigh* this show can't do martial arts or business right.
 
Wheel of time said:
How
Do
You
Fuck
Up
Kung-Fu
For
The
Kung-Fu
Hero
How?:wtf:
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Very easily? I mean, Kung Fu takes a fair amount of skill, and Loras Tyrell hasn't exactly had a huge amount of time to gain such....

Danny still thinks he's a shounen hero rather than a MCU character. But ugh, the punching the truck scene was terribly shot.
 
I actually liked season 2 of Iron Fist. Eventually they go for for almost a buddy cop angle with Colleen and Misty, which works fine, maybe even well if you watched season 2 of Luke Cage.
 
Barnaby said:
I actually liked season 2 of Iron Fist. Eventually they go for for almost a buddy cop angle with Colleen and Misty, which works fine, maybe even well if you watched season 2 of Luke Cage.
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So basically, the MCu writers suck at writing Econ/Business and still can't muster up good MA choreo more than like maybe twice a season, but they do PI/Cop show pretty well?
 
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