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In the Wake of Monsters - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Dodge the question
-[X] Propose that you will answer the question with the final product and procedure since it has yet to be finalized and done. Once the completed product is made and the process recorded then they can determine if it is under their domain or not

Way I figure it? We kick it down the road and now BOTH gods want to invest in our project so we can say its their department when its done!
 
[X] Dodge the question
-[X] Propose that you will answer the question with the final product and procedure since it has yet to be finalized and done. Once the completed product is made and the process recorded then they can determine if it is under their domain or not
 
Exmorri said:
That help?
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Somewhat. I was asking more about who they were as people rather than they relative job positions. However I suspect I'm about to get an answer of 'Marble has no idea'.

On balance I prefer the one with 'mother' in her title rather than the one with the 'opposing aspects' theme, as such themes all too often indicate the bad kind of True Neutral alignment.

[X] No, not thaumaturgy
 
>[X] No, not thaumaturgy

The alchemist is earning their pay, yes, but I doubt they're doing anything a chemist with access to the right materials couldn't do. It cannot be a process of transmutive thaumaturgy if there is no transmutive thaumaturgy involved, and if simple chemical processes were to be considered transmutive thaumaturgy then the God's Domain would cover practically everything. It might be safer to disassemble and let them argue things out themselves... but we're a scholar dammit, and he who dares wins. We should be proud of what we've done so far, and not be afraid to take credit for it.

Plus, let's be honest here, if we succeed we'll do something like this again. Which will just lead to us being dragged back here until eventually we'll run into somebody that wants us to take a side. I say we draw the line here... very politely, of course.
 
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Exmorri said:
Correct. Who's who in the Celestial Bureaucracy is hard enough for professionals to keep track of.


You might want to reread the options.

>What you're doing will amount to thaumaturgy once it succeeds, right?
>[] Yes, thaumaturgy
>[] No, not thaumaturgy
>[] Dodge the question
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Is it okay know? I mean... I would think that the 'no' option is the forging option, unless I somehow misread things.
 
Exmorri said:
It's okay now. You are reading the meaning of the options correctly, you just dropped a word on the first pass.
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Ah, well, I copied the wrong answer the first time, so for the second one I just copied the first person I saw with a 'no' vote, I guess they must have forgotten to type in the whole vote?
 
[X] No, not thaumaturgy

Eh, I would have preferred thaumaturgy as it might lead to a Thaumaturge trait at some point in the future, but to be honest our plan was to forge starmetal, we never considered a more esoteric angle, and nothing so far seems to indicate that we've wandered onto the territory of the ritualistic.
 
Siual said:
[X] No, not thaumaturgy

Eh, I would have preferred thaumaturgy as it might lead to a Thaumaturge trait at some point in the future, but to be honest our plan was to forge starmetal, we never considered a more esoteric angle, and nothing so far seems to indicate that we've wandered onto the territory of the ritualistic.
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The way I see this choice is accessibility.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation to a soup level, a little tricky, but theoretically anyone could make it.

Saying "Yes, this is thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation on a specialist's level, annoying to apply on a mass production scale.
 
[X] Dodge the question
-[X] Propose that you will answer the question with the final product and procedure since it has yet to be finalized and done. Once the completed product is made and the process recorded then they can determine if it is under their domain or not
 
[X] Dodge the question
-[X] Propose that you will answer the question with the final product and procedure since it has yet to be finalized and done. Once the completed product is made and the process recorded then they can determine if it is under their domain or not
 
Marlin said:
The way I see this choice is accessibility.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation to a soup level, a little tricky, but theoretically anyone could make it.

Saying "Yes, this is thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation on a specialist's level, annoying to apply on a mass production scale.
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Well, the more esoteric the methods the more difficult it is to reliably reproduce on a large scale, that might be true. Mundane crafting could have its own difficulties in reproduction as well, for instance rarity of component parts or the infrastructure needed (a forge capable of sufficient heat or an environment that allows for maximally controlled circumstances), and even if all component parts are mundane, the procedure could still be so complex that it requires multiple simultaneous specialists (smiths of various specialisations, alchemists, priests et cetera). That is if our end result is even reproducible in the first place, without modern measuring equipment (or cultivator shenanigans) we can't be entirely sure we will get the exact same result twice in a row.
Adhoc vote count started by Siual on Jun 7, 2018 at 9:08 AM, finished with 46 posts and 19 votes.
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Marlin said:
The way I see this choice is accessibility.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation to a soup level, a little tricky, but theoretically anyone could make it.

Saying "Yes, this is thaumaturgy" places the ease of creation on a specialist's level, annoying to apply on a mass production scale.
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We're not actually defining whether the process will be thaumaturgical in nature, nor how easy/accessible it will be. We're deciding which department gets the patent for the process.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" means we've backed the smith god, and therefor might get some help from her (very big maybe) and might face opposition from the alchemy god (if they decide that if they can't have it, noone can).

Saying yes reverses that.

This is office politics, not abstract conceptual fuckery.
 
thamuzz said:
We're not actually defining whether the process will be thaumaturgical in nature, nor how easy/accessible it will be. We're deciding which department gets the patent for the process.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" means we've backed the smith god, and therefor might get some help from her (very big maybe) and might face opposition from the alchemy god (if they decide that if they can't have it, noone can).

Saying yes reverses that.

This is office politics, not abstract conceptual fuckery.
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You may be wrong.

I asked a question, on what effect does a specific choice do to the world?
Marlin said:
@Exmorri if we say not thaumaturgy would that mean the starmetal we produce can't be starmetal?

My reasoning is, not thaumaturgy end product starmetal is not starmetal with the quality of fantastical starmetal, but starmetal placed outside the field of thaumaturgy that is supposed to create a 'magic' end product. Would definitely mean no fantastical starmetal?
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Our gm answered.
Exmorri said:
The classification by itself will not directly modify the product. The classification may influence your approach, though.
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I admit, my opinion might be a jump, but I don't see my opinion of 'the choice will affect accessibility' as impossible.
 
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Marlin said:
You may be wrong.

I asked a question, on what effect does a specific choice do to the world?

Our gm answered.
I admit, my opinion might be a jump, but I don't see my opinion of 'the choice will affect accessibility' as impossible.
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My interpretation is that trying to use obviously transmutative thaumaturgy after saying that it isn't that might bring down the displeasure of the thaumaturgy god. Office politics, rather than altering the underlying (meta)physics that govern the process.

@Exmorri

Is the question of whether gods define or are defined by the world something Marble knows anything about?
 
thamuzz said:
We're not actually defining whether the process will be thaumaturgical in nature, nor how easy/accessible it will be. We're deciding which department gets the patent for the process.

Saying "No, not thaumaturgy" means we've backed the smith god, and therefor might get some help from her (very big maybe) and might face opposition from the alchemy god (if they decide that if they can't have it, noone can).

Saying yes reverses that.

This is office politics, not abstract conceptual fuckery.
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And most importantly for us, if we say maybe, we can use office politics to our advantage as both sides funnel us aid to skew our approach towards their preferred method.
 
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Belief does not define or change gods, and other metaphysical matters
  • Informational
    • thamuzz said:
    @Exmorri

    Is the question of whether gods define or are defined by the world something Marble knows anything about?
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    I'm going to give official QM answers here to head off a lot of wondering later:

    Belief does not define or change gods. In my experience, this is usually the main thing people are wondering about when they ask something like this. (Personally I think that idea is a dumb trope that needs to be deconstructed and die.)

    If you spread a rumor that Alice the God of Music is also the God of Standing-on-one-leg-while-juggling-candles, and then start a secondary cult praising "Alice the God of Standing-on-one-leg-while-juggling-candles", nothing will happen to Alice except that Alice will receive a slightly increased fraction of prayers marked by the Divine Post Office with "We're not sure who these prayers are intended for, but our best guess is it's you". (Prayers function as a sort of currency.)

    Now, for a sufficiently wide definition of 'the world', the world does define gods, because the world defines approximately everything.
    Here's how it works: If you start a cult to some nonexistent god, for example the God of Striped Burlap Underpants, this will not create a god. Persistent worship of this nonexistent god will create a position that the Celestial Bureaucracy will eventually notice and decide that if your cult is so dedicated to striped burlap underpants, maybe some unemployed minor god should be appointed as manager of that. "Bob, I hear your position as God of Backwater Hamlet #3428 is superfluous after that hamlet was razed by an invading army, how would you like a transfer to being God of Striped Burlap Underpants?" And then Bob will be invested with powers related to striped burlap underpants by his new boss the God of Undergarments. Who in turn works for the God of Clothing.

    Transferred gods, particularly recent transfers, may retain trappings and powers and rights that they carried over from their old job.

    Gods also trivially define the world in that they're intelligent beings with powers of their own they can use to act on the world. But gods are relatively low-agency compared to humans for various reasons, two of the biggest being 1) they are largely immortal so things are less urgent, 2) they have largely immortal bosses too so there's not much hope of a promotion. Instead, they mostly focus on doing their jobs of overseeing the world and making sure everything is working like it should. And playing office politics, naturally.
     
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  • Informational
    • Exmorri said:
    I'm going to give official QM answers here to head off a lot of wondering later:

    Belief does not define or change gods. In my experience, this is usually the main thing people are wondering about when they ask something like this. (Personally I think that idea is a dumb trope that needs to be deconstructed and die.)

    If you spread a rumor that Alice the God of Music is also the God of Standing-on-one-leg-while-juggling-candles, and then start a secondary cult praising "Alice the God of Standing-on-one-leg-while-juggling-candles", nothing will happen to Alice except that Alice will receive a slightly increased fraction of prayers marked by the Divine Post Office with "We're not sure who these prayers are intended for, but our best guess is it's you". (Prayers function as a sort of currency.)

    Now, for a sufficiently wide definition of 'the world', the world does define gods, because the world defines approximately everything.
    Here's how it works: If you start a cult to some nonexistent god, for example the God of Striped Burlap Underpants, this will not create a god. Persistent worship of this nonexistent god will create a position that the Celestial Bureaucracy will eventually notice and decide that if your cult is so dedicated to striped burlap underpants, maybe some unemployed minor god should be appointed as manager of that. "Bob, I hear your position as God of Backwater Hamlet #3428 is superfluous after that hamlet was razed by an invading army, how would you like a transfer to being God of Striped Burlap Underpants?" And then Bob will be invested with powers related to striped burlap underpants by his new boss the God of Undergarments. Who in turn works for the God of Clothing.

    Transferred gods, particularly recent transfers, may retain trappings and powers and rights that they carried over from their old job.

    Gods also trivially define the world in that they're intelligent beings with powers of their own they can use to act on the world. But gods are relatively low-agency compared to humans for various reasons, two of the biggest being 1) they are largely immortal so things are less urgent, 2) they have largely immortal bosses too so there's not much hope of a promotion. Instead, they mostly focus on doing their jobs of overseeing the world and making sure everything is working like it should. And playing office politics, naturally.
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    Thanks. I was asking because I'm familiar with Exalted's Celestial Bureaucracy, but given the setting changes I wasn't sure how well the relationship between things and their gods would carry over.
    If you blow up a city, it affects a god because they lose their job. If you stab a city's god, the city suffers because the god is no longer there to do their job.
     
    Lore: On spirit pacts and blessings
  • Informational
    • Various short-term blessings and imbuements that last for a minute, an hour or a day may be bestowed by performance of proclamation or ceremony, by consumption of pill or elixir, on many subjects or on one. Long-term blessings of the kind that can be bestowed by most gods and some other spirits are perhaps best considered akin to loans: the spirit must temporarily set aside part of its power to be invested in a single chosen follower. This mote of power is not consumed or expended, merely unavailable for a time, leaving the spirit weakened by a small amount.

    The strength of the blessing that can be given is generally proportionate to the power of the spirit, and the cost is inversely proportionate. Thus a benevolent ancestor ghost would render itself weak to bestow upon a descendant some of the ghost's knowledge, while the radiant blessing of the Most High, if any were ever found worthy of it, would cost the Sun little and make the recipient very great indeed.

    This invested power may be withdrawn by the spirit at any time, and returns on its own if the blessed mortal dies. As there is no permanent cost, gods will frequently bless at least one mortal in this way, usually their favored high priest, but are slow to bless more people due to the cumulative enfeeblement that results from doing so. (Or for the gamers in the audience, "stacking debuff".)

    Spiritual endowments of this sort also make it easier for the mortal to practice and retain any associated skills and arts. There is no such thing as a 'common' method of becoming a cultivator, but one of the less rare methods of achieving the first full stage of cultivation is to perform a large service or sacrifice for a god so that the god will bestow a temporary blessing of knowledge and enlightenment, then work to study that same knowledge and enlightenment to permanence with one's self as the best possible tutor.
    (Mechanically, this means a single training action makes your basic smithing skill permanent, and you have a bonus to learning advanced smithing while it lasts.)

    Blessings from gods are always safe and desirable, even if costly. Blessings from spirits other than gods (meaning ghosts, demons, elementals, and miscellaneous unique spirits) are on occasion cheaper, but not as safe. These spirits can give the same strength of blessing as a god of comparable power, but the nature of such a blessing makes it more ill-advised to take for any significant length of time. For the divine aspect is neutral or heavenly-aspected and only drives a mortal towards virtue if at all, while other aspects may influence a mortal in dangerous ways.
    The world is rife with the stories of ambitious but short-sighted men and women who decided to make a pact with a spirit to gain a measure of the spirit's power, and ended up gaining many of the spirit's unwanted traits in the bargain, such as the aggressiveness and stupidity of oni, the sun-shy demeanor of ghosts, the compulsive behavior of elementals, or the overall alien and inauspicious nature of demons.
    Still, such a thing does not entirely dissuade those who may consider this an acceptable price to pay, or already possess the traits in question.

    The legal status of such pact-making and spirit cults varies. In many places it is at least disapproved of. In many other places it is outright forbidden, with the most common penalty being a year's service at a temple to an approved god. Some designate types or lists of specific non-divine spirits it is acceptable to deal with or not. Ancestor cults are generally looked on the most favorably and demon cults the least. Silverport forbids demon cults and pays a civic tithe to the temples of gods as a matter of public policy, but leaves inhabitants to their own business when it comes to other sorts.

    Voting closed, but update is slow going. Have a lore post with teaser in the meantime.
     
  • Informational
    • @Exmorri
    My current impression is that, in Exalted terms, cultivators are enlightened heroic mortal tier. From an in character perspective, do we know of anything that would match the general description of the various flavors of Exalt?
    For instance, if you were to describe someone capable of the sorts of feats expected of a Solar, would Marble say "Ah, an example of a very powerful cultivator", "Ah, a divinely empowered champion, those happen sometimes" or "Ah, a mythical person, possibly based on real events that have become distorted and exaggerated by rumor and retelling"?
    If you described dynastic lines born with immense innate power, would he say "Yes, they rule that particular nation, don't fuck with them" or "Huh, that's an impressive propaganda machine they have going in that nation"?
     
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    Solars and cultivators both have too wide a range depending on age and power, and Exalted works on too different a scale, for there to be close comparison. Bilocation, for instance, is an Essence 7 technique in Exalted, meaning you need to be at minimum 250 years old to accomplish it there. But its balancing assumption seems to be very heavily weighted towards "don't let overly clever players do two things at once". Elsewhere, you have media like Naruto where children are casually taught six kinds of cloning technique and the protagonist regularly turns into a hundred.

    The upcoming update will have rumors and war stories from the front concerning how some specific cultivators fare against spider demons.
     
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