This argument doesn't belong here, moved to PM.
Immunodeficiency (Worm AU)
- Thread starter shaderic
- Start date
I'll bite why not.
So far it's probably one of the only world wide au's that haven't made me just go "meh whatever" from the get go.
So i'll watch and see where this one ends up before I say if it's good or not.
So far it's probably one of the only world wide au's that haven't made me just go "meh whatever" from the get go.
So i'll watch and see where this one ends up before I say if it's good or not.
Ahriman81
Knowledge is power
- Location
- Utah
I'm just curious why the Taylor bashing it changes nothing. A some people like her as is there right, and others Hate her as is there right so why come here to whine? (this is an honest questions please refrain from insults.)
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, I suppose I will be watching this, as this seems like it could be interesting. I will try not, however, to get caught up in the argument going on.
Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
So... you're asking why I would want to change the potential course of the story into one that I think would be better?
The reason I posted that was in the hopes that the story is early enough in the planning stages that a change in protagonist would still be possible, and if that were the case that it would be changed.
The end of my post was stating my hopes for the future of the story, and indicating that the premise is interesting enough that I would be willing to read the story even if Taylor is still the protagonist, even though I feel this is a suboptimal decision.
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Ahriman81
Knowledge is power
- Location
- Utah
Not just that, but why do ya hate her so much?So... you're asking why I would want to change the potential course of the story into one that I think would be better?
The reason I posted that was in the hopes that the story is early enough in the planning stages that a change in protagonist would still be possible, and if that were the case that it would be changed.
The end of my post was stating my hopes for the future of the story, and indicating that the premise is interesting enough that I would be willing to read the story even if Taylor is still the protagonist, even though I feel this is a suboptimal decision.
Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
It's a bunch of things, really.
Her massive constant self-delusion, is certainly a big thing.
The near unending series of bad decisions on her part is another.
That'd be the thing, really I think. She made a constant stream of terrible decisions that only turned out somewhat fine due to a large helping of plot armour, which she then proceeded to justify as everyone else being in the wrong and her being the poor victim.
I really cannot stand people with that kind of mindset.
Keeping things relatively simple here, while metahuman potentiates might have buds getting attached to them, the degree of stress required for a trigger basically means that long before that happens they'll undergo a metahuman emergence. Which will then eat the bud.
Still figuring that out.
Japan's meta/para-culture is actually something I've been considering messing with here, but the trick would be integrating it with the BB storylines.
I didn't really realize I was making it until you pointed it out.
... Somehow, this makes the stuff even better.
Basically.
Hum, I did think about writing stuff centered more around the japanese scene, but since that would be an incredibly wild divergence, spinning up a whole new chunk of the setting seemed like a lot more work than could be easily justified since the more readily identified characters I wanted to try focusing on were in the Bay and American.
Like, I only have two japanese characters half-designed, a giant-phenotype variant 'Oni' who worked as a bodyguard and an actress who became a fox-phenotype in the early 80's and leveraged a major career out of it. The joke is that the bodyguard's emergence was recent, and that the actress has been refining her powers for over twenty years.
Anyway, if the issue with metahuman registration sounds controversial, then you'll be glad to know it's also controversial in-universe. Disclosing metahuman potentia is considered illegal, falling under classic patient confidentiality stuff. The first big pushes for testing were actually at scientific hospitals when the difference between metahumans and parahumans was becoming clear. It was done to try and discover phenotypes before they emerged, and to try and better understand just which gene caused you to grow a tail versus which one made you have long ears. The results indicating who were metahuman potentiates versus who were ordinary humans was kept under lock and key. Except then some jerk broke in and passed the results to a newspaper.
To say hilarity ensued would be an understatement.
Now see, this wasn't actually an act of malice or villainy. It was done because someone thought 'ooh scientists are secretly examining your genes, that sounds scary, the public should know!' And the very next day, his ass went to jail.
But it kicked up a storm of opinions and controversy that never really died down.
Four out of five people say that the results of metahuman potentiate screening should be considered purely a matter of patient confidentiality. Three out of ten feel that testing should be mandatory. 58% of people interviewed feel that the government should keep track of people with dangerous powers, regardless of intent. It's considered a common thought that if you need a license to own a gun, then you should probably have to register if you have the ability to just randomly throw fireballs.
The statistics are all the cherry-picked bullshit you get from watching the news on TV, but you get the idea.
Cape culture is very much artificial, but with metahumans I tried to make their stuff a little bit more nuanced.
Metahumans are, on average, less likely to want to become capes. Part of this is them lacking CONFLICT balls, and part of it is that maintaining a secret identity when you're the only one in ten miles with big fluffy tails is slightly more difficult then it might appear.
Case 53's tended to fall into cape culture because they had basically no actual identity. They were amnesiacs that got swept into the system. Metahumans have lives, careers, families. With the world being that much more stable as well, they're less likely to have to resort to crime or getting support directly from the government. That's not to say it doesn't happen at all though. It's just that compared to parahumans, a lot of them just keep on having somewhat normal lives.
Ahriman81
Knowledge is power
- Location
- Utah
Personally I like early Taylor if only because her bad choices make sense for someone who has been through what she has. That said I completely agree with ya about late Taylor. Now the character I really hate is contessa ugh sapient plot devices piss me off.
- Location
- oregon, usa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, on the note of Registration, I am torn. I am fresh off of having finished Shinsekai Yori, so there is that on my mind right now as well.
Thoughts to add to the discussion in no particular order:
- Meta/para powers are not like a gun, really. They are not something that you can put in a safe and lock up. They are always there, always present in your mind. You cannot take away the power to chuck a car across a football field with your mind. You can take somebodies gun away.
- Baseline walks through a security checkpoint and you know they are unarmed. Meta/para does the same, and they can still carry firepower on the level of an airstrike right along with them.
- Meta powers are not much like a gun for another reason, the upper bound is much too high. The power is more akin to a tank or a fully loaded fighter/bomber.
- Governments already hold registries (the no-fly list of the United States, for example) of people for lesser concerns than the potential ability to level an area a hundred meters in radius for having a bad day.
- At the same time, caution is advised. Humanity has committed genocide for lesser reasons than that one group can/can't burn things with their minds. Fear of that which is other leads to dangerous places.
I guess that what I am trying to say is that the execution is more important than the idea itself (in relation to registries).
This could be a very good story, so please continue it. It may not go the direction that I hope it does, but that is no bad thing.
Thoughts to add to the discussion in no particular order:
- Meta/para powers are not like a gun, really. They are not something that you can put in a safe and lock up. They are always there, always present in your mind. You cannot take away the power to chuck a car across a football field with your mind. You can take somebodies gun away.
- Baseline walks through a security checkpoint and you know they are unarmed. Meta/para does the same, and they can still carry firepower on the level of an airstrike right along with them.
- Meta powers are not much like a gun for another reason, the upper bound is much too high. The power is more akin to a tank or a fully loaded fighter/bomber.
- Governments already hold registries (the no-fly list of the United States, for example) of people for lesser concerns than the potential ability to level an area a hundred meters in radius for having a bad day.
- At the same time, caution is advised. Humanity has committed genocide for lesser reasons than that one group can/can't burn things with their minds. Fear of that which is other leads to dangerous places.
I guess that what I am trying to say is that the execution is more important than the idea itself (in relation to registries).
This could be a very good story, so please continue it. It may not go the direction that I hope it does, but that is no bad thing.
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Hotdog Vendor
Author of 'Sisters of Rail'
- Location
- (5 + 3 * sqrt(5)) / 8
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Depends on whether it's a 'hey this is a cool idea' story like this one, or some kind of mystery/suspense story where not knowing is half the fun. For instance, if I gave away the PoD of Silken Black, that would rob people of the fun of wondering what's going on and how we got there.
- Location
- Neptune
Yet the thing is, whether you have the potential for massive destruction or not does not matter. Even if all you ever might be capable of is blowing colourful snot bubbles, small colourful snot bubbles, you'll still be put on the shitlist with no recompense and that list can be used for whatever means, even be made available to possible employers, without effective control. That's not just a no-fly list, that's massive genetic profiling.
- Location
- oregon, usa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A true enough point. But it depends on which ethical principle you subscribe to. However, it is not quite as cut and dried an issue as you make it seem. And I made specific note that there are risks to making such a list. Fear is a dangerous tool to wield. My own inclinations lean toward there not being a registry, and yet, I cannot quite bring an ethical argument to bear against it that I find waterproof. The problem is that you might only be able to blow colorful snot bubbles, or you might be able to seize control of their mind, create an illusion that makes a highway exit appear to be twenty meters out of place from reality, or release building breaking telekinetic power. Yes, this is genetic profiling, but it is genetic profiling aimed at people with the genetically testable potential for the power to match an airstrike. Some people who are mostly harmless will get caught in the drag net, but the risks not doing it may exceed the risks of doing it. This is a world where, self evidently the enlightenment principle that all persons are equal is false.
Also go look up how the no-fly list was handled. It used a large amount of racial profiling, and was made using simple names in many cases as the terrorists frequently lacked more complex identifications. Having a name that matched that of some suspected/known terrorist could get you effectively banned from getting on a plane (if you get detained for hours every time that you try to get through security, while security confirms your identity, you will probably miss your flight). The first time many of these people knew that they could not get on a plane was when they were pulled aside by airport security. Consider the consequences of that for travel and how that could affect your ability to work.
I also want to add that metahuman powers come with some fun visual effects attached. A parahuman looks indistinguishable from a baseline, and requires a brainscan to detect in most cases. A metahuman on the other hand comes with a tail, or is 270 cm and 500 kilos of muscle and bone, or has rabbit ears. Metahuman powers are like the color of your skin, you can not hide that you have them. If they were going to affect your career options, well the first interview will ensure that your employer knows, regardless of what is on the form.
As noted below, it is possible to have powers before you are mature enough to be considered in full control of your own fate. Is the state not responsible for protecting its citizens from a terrible mistake at a young age. A first grader with the potential to gain control of fire could do a lot of damage before they are old enough to properly comprehend their power, and an extra teacher to guide them at how to interact appropriately could help greatly. I have been in special ed since sometime in 2nd or 3rd grade. And yeah, it does sting a bit to be separated because of what you are more than who you are, but the extra classes do help.
As Machiavelli said, (some paraphrasing), it is better to be feared than love, but only so long as you are not hated. In this portion he is talking about respect, that you must see that the government has power over you, but not resent it for that difference in power. Yet he is also noting that hatred closely follows fear and that when hatred and fear align things can get dangerous. There are good reasons to fear metahumans, but that fear must be carried with understanding rather than incomprehension. Making a registry could confirm that metahumans are a threat, in a similar manner to how requiring GMO products be labeled has convinced people that GMOs are dangerous.
In conclusion, I am still rather torn. There are good arguments for both sides. As a someone who is primarily utilitarian in ethics, I would have to say that without more information on how the system is operated I can not conclude in either direction on the ethicality of having a metahuman registry.
Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
To make clear my position:
I'm not against Metahumans' abilities being taken into account during schooling, work, or anywhere else they're relevant.
What I'm against is a government mandated registry based solely on genetic potential.
Of course individuals who hae proven themselves dangerous should be registered, but that should happen as with every criminal.
Have you ever watched the movie 'Gattaca'?
That's the kind of thing that starts to happen when you have government mandated genetic profiling implemented on a national level.
The simple existance of such a registry would create a distinction between Metahumans and mundanes.
"The Pure" Vs. "The freaks"
"The Powered" VS. "The Muggles"
It's the same kind of thinking that meant the existance of Brexit lead to an increase in hate-crime in the UK.
I'm not against Metahumans' abilities being taken into account during schooling, work, or anywhere else they're relevant.
What I'm against is a government mandated registry based solely on genetic potential.
Of course individuals who hae proven themselves dangerous should be registered, but that should happen as with every criminal.
Have you ever watched the movie 'Gattaca'?
That's the kind of thing that starts to happen when you have government mandated genetic profiling implemented on a national level.
The simple existance of such a registry would create a distinction between Metahumans and mundanes.
"The Pure" Vs. "The freaks"
"The Powered" VS. "The Muggles"
It's the same kind of thinking that meant the existance of Brexit lead to an increase in hate-crime in the UK.
- Location
- oregon, usa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
When the genetic potential is to be the loose equivalent of a fully loaded ground attack aircraft, you had best believe that the government has a right to know who you are. It is not like the United States just hands out fully loaded and fueled military aircraft to random civilians. That kind of firepower should not be available at the drop of a hat. In Gattaca it is a world where the enlightenment philosophy that all people are created equal still holds true. Gattaca is a story about how the enlightenment philosophy is right. This is not similar. In this world that enlightenment philosophy is observably false. A baseline can operate in normal human bounds, but a meta/parahuman could destroy a car with their thoughts. A much better analogy would be to compare to Elfen Lied or Shinsekai Yori. Taking the course of action that was taken in either would be against my ethics, yet they are still closer comparisons to the present scenario.
To make a registry is dangerous, oh yes. I want to lean in favor of your opinion, but at the same time cannot discard a more cynical approach out of hand. There are darker paths that could be walked, and I would steadfastly refuse to take them, but this, I cannot say that I would not do, were the choice in my hands.
Perhaps your answer is the better place to stand. Given our world and our physical/biological/mechanical operational limits as humans, I would say that you are absolutely correct. But it is not our world, it does not follow our rules.
I am yet uncertain.
zhuull
SB still lying to protect Racists what else is new
Time the hell out.
That was purest authorial fiat and should be ignored at any other writer's preference.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Isn't it cannon that Cauldron was doing a lot of behind the scenes work to prevent Bet's civilization from collapsing under parahuman strain while they tried to figure out how to deal with Scion?
Twei
I have a face!
- Location
- the land where they write things
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Probably? But there's a difference between in-story statements and Word of Wildbow. As you may have noticed, some people do not like the Word of Wildbow. Which is probably fair, somethingsomethingendbringerdensity. Or somethingsomethingtaylorsexuality depending on who you ask?
KinKrow
Ojou-tsun
- Location
- Gamindustri
Hrm, are there going to be threadmarks?
And I do like what I'm seeing by the way, I like the thought of itty bitty extradimensional bacteria that do the same thing as Shards, just a lot worse. The resulting betterment being collective based on your personal skill and aptitude.
Any Parahumans have children with Metahumans?
And I do like what I'm seeing by the way, I like the thought of itty bitty extradimensional bacteria that do the same thing as Shards, just a lot worse. The resulting betterment being collective based on your personal skill and aptitude.
Any Parahumans have children with Metahumans?
- Location
- Existance
Basically?
This. Contessa has things to do. Both her and the Number Man are shown to be running around (less literally in TNMs case, of course) dealing with problems both in Earth Bet, other worlds (I'm iffy on this, but it's at least heavily implied), and making sure their 'guests' don't leave or cause trouble, not to mention the work on extracting and understanding their source of powers.
For all that they're all highly capable and competent, they're still running a multi-colored spanning conspiracy responsible for a lot of what is happening. They're not going to be constantly free to just do whatever.
The Stormbringer
Worm Fanfic & Crack Connoisseur
- Location
- Spaaaaace~!
What about a parametahuman? Is that possible? What happens if a metahuman drinks a Cauldron vial?
Is that possible? What happens if a metahuman drinks a Cauldron vial?
- Location
- Australia
The registration thing is basically the same as what black people went through in the fifties and earlier, or being a Jew in Germany in the fourties. You think governments would have learned from that sort of thing. It's a terrible idea, I think there would be a lot of protesting against such a thing.
What about a parametahuman?
Why is this question so damned popular?
Doylist explanation, I want to keep parahumans and metahumans as very clearly different things, so there's not going to be any real crossing of the two.
Watsonian explanation, if an active metahuman drinks it, they get sick and just throw it back up. No changes. If a metahuman potentiate drinks it, then their metahuman genes activate and they become a metahuman. In both cases, the shard component gets nom'd by our friend, the space-bacteria.
Twei
I have a face!
- Location
- the land where they write things
- Pronouns
- They/Them
But if shards are space viruses and metahumans are space bacteria, what about bacteriophages?!?
The Stormbringer
Worm Fanfic & Crack Connoisseur
- Location
- Spaaaaace~!
What about RETROVIRUSES!?But if shards are space viruses and metahumans are space bacteria, what about bacteriophages?!?