I think there will not be a Supernal Finale that requires more than 4 Triumphants.
It's possible that there might be some kind of secret ending where you need 6 Triumphants - Perhaps 2 Initiations per Triumphant Finale - requiring lots of luck to execute all of them in a 'technically possible but realistically no' sense, though. In such a scenario where we are going the extra mile to do all this we would probably need to go to each Supernal Finale at the Lovers/Judgement/Wheel of Fortune each and then decline them in turn.
As you've discovered, that energy can be called upon in various ways. The dream entities you met have techniques for doing so. Those of us who did not attain the highest heights, like me and presumably this Neria of whom you write, find other outlets for that energy, paths of mystical achievement that do not rely on the supernal powers atop the mountains.
Seems to me like there's another alternate win condition. We've seen Occult Finales that require us to remain in the dream ream. But we've also seen those who are empowering themselves through the dream realm while still being able to leave it. That might be a type of finale that Inanna and Neria chose.
As a bit of speculation, if the Page, Knight, Queen and King cards are for meeting others on their journey, (or after their journey,) and cards 1-10 are for personal trials, perhaps the 10 cards of each suit is this kind of finale?
That would be narratively consistent. Even when we started our Ascent we were warned that most people who have tried never came back. We've also met a lot of people who have turned aside from their ascent, or declared success where they were like the Hermit. That wouldn't happen if this was easy.
I've been assuming, on no evidence at all, that one of the win conditions is 4 triumphs, one for each suite.
That seems...extremely unlikely, from currently available information. Anything that mechanically matters (and some things that don't) will be explicitly tracked, as far as we've seen, and Triumphant Initiations don't have any sort of record attached of what suit we spent on attaining them. We don't even keep the Trial cards in our Pneuma. They're pretty firmly fungible in mechanical terms.
Voting closed, writing has... actually already finished because the outcome was unanimous and I had some time this evening after getting off the phone with my sister.
(She bought a condo! It's very exciting! I was extremely supportive and did not share any horror stories from my own experience because that would be Unhelpful!)
Scheduled vote count started by picklepikkl on May 28, 2024 at 10:26 PM, finished with 15 posts and 10 votes.
The clouds are even more beautiful from above than they were last time. Maybe it's just that several real-time nights away from the dreaming-realm has dulled your memory. Maybe the changes that are even now being wrought in you have opened your eyes to more subtleties that escaped you before. Maybe it's just a really nice day for cloudgazing.
The clouds feel like a curtain between worlds. You've stepped past them, and what you found on this side... proved to be broadly similar to what you found on the other side. Fellow occultists, odd and unique spirits and places, something trying to knock you off the mountain figuratively and/or literally: you've been there and done that. But that doesn't change the way that everything feels different, now that there's nothing hiding the peaks from your vision. Tense, steeped with promise: the sort of thing that makes you want to hold your breath.
Though, of course, last night put aspects of the Ascent into perspective. Based on Inanna's letter, it sounds like many of the mighty dreamers you may meet up here are those who gained these heights during their own Ascents, did not achieve whatever lies at the very top, but made their peace with that and continued as practicing occultists, following their own paths. Based on your interpretation of a few shouted words and facial expressions, the attacker who ambushed you is another who made it up here, failed, and chose to channel his talents into spiteful violence instead.
You're getting tired: whatever is in you, the determination that saw you embark on this Ascent when you were genuinely not yet ready for it and has brought you this far, is running short. Everyone has their limits, and you aren't at yours, but they're in sight. You have to seriously consider the possibility that you will not make it to the top, or that you will but won't be satisfied with what you find up there. So, what then? You don't know, but having examples of different approaches does help. That being said: just because you need to think about what it might be like to not achieve your aims doesn't mean you aren't still trying to achieve them. Corporate life has a lot of doublethink involved, but "consider multiple levels of outcome" isn't doublethink, it's pure practicality, and it's something you did all the time.
It does feel different when it's not just a company's quarterly earnings reports but your own spiritual ambitions on the line, though.
The paths tonight seem open and gentle, to start with at least. There are a number of ways that seem like they might lead you to your goal. You take a while to consider, then pick the one that seems likeliest and start walking.
You'll take it as it comes.
V THE HIEROPHANT
The walkable trail meanders, back and forth and up and down. It does not, it turns out, take you straight up the mountain, but you're used to that by now and just pleased that it seems to be taking you higher, on average. After a number of sharp switchbacks that you aren't too proud to use your hands to help you climb, you fetch up outside a structure: a long building with steps leading up to a double-door entrance. The whole thing is surrounded by a chest-high wall with an opening instead of a gate, and both wall and building are whitewashed, almost blinding in the bright light this high on the mountain. The whole effect is rather quaint and charming. You pass the wall, and inside the courtyard it defines is a little fountain, inscribed with words you cannot read. You take advantage of it to rinse the dust off your face and hands before climbing the steps and opening the door.
The hall within is significantly larger than the building had been, and the darkness within is lit by high windows that you are pretty sure did not appear on its exterior. Incense fills the air, visible in its thickness, but not oppressive or cloying to the nose despite its sharpness: the olfactory equivalent of a steady breeze. And, of course, there are the inhabitants: dozens, perhaps hundreds, of dark-robed and high-hooded figures, standing in rows facing the end of the hall. They are silent and still, each indistinguishable from the rest.
The one whom these anonymous monastics face is anything but. His robes are fine, but simple. His rod is a shepherd's crook, a herald's caduceus, a pilgrim's staff. He looks like a bearded old man, but there is an impossible depth of faith and understanding in his face. He is giving a sermon, but his gaze is fixed firmly on you, and when he speaks, it is like he was waiting for you so he could begin preaching. Maybe he was.
"We all learn from our own trials. Wisdom is the ability to learn from other people's trials.
"It is the natural condition of humans that each one imagines himself to be the hero of the great cosmic drama. Each one knows in the pit of his heart that he must go out, alone, to find the hidden truth of the world.
"But the truth is known. It has been known for a very long time, and it is not hidden; it is there in the pages of books, and in the mouths of teachers, plain for all to see. The prophets have had their revelations, and the philosophers have written their commentaries. It is doctrine. It is scholarship. It is all the endless knowledge won by those who came before."
His eyes bore into yours. He's at the end of the hall, but it is as though he is right in front of you, speaking to you alone. "Will you attend, and learn?"
[] Spend one Willpower, discussing truth without accepting his expositions of doctrine or him as an authority: Add this card to your Pneuma.
[] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[][ASCENT] Keep exploring.
[][ASCENT] Wake up, ending the Night.
Decks and Resources: Character Sheet Night-specific information: 1/max 6 Explorations
I swear that I did not know this card was coming when I wrote Inanna's letter.
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[X][ASCENT] Keep exploring.
Obvious choice seems obvious, and his lessons seem reasonable so...
(Really? A free card from these without any Initiations needed? What would happen on our next Peril then now that we are out of those cards to get?)
Edit: Also, I will laugh if we get forced into a Wearied Finale from endless Trumps coming our way
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[x] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[x] [ASCENT] Keep exploring.
Given that our Aspiration is to learn and share what we've learned, the choice in-character seems obvious even before considering the mechanical benefits. Yes, please, pass knowledge down on us so we can in turn pass it down to others!
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[X][ASCENT] Keep exploring.
[x] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[x] [ASCENT] Keep exploring.
Amazing that we hit the Hierophant at literally the earliest possible opportunity.
Ooof that forced willpower expenditure hurts. It does put the last trump into play, though.
[x] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[x] [ASCENT] Keep exploring.
[x] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[x] [ASCENT] Keep exploring.
After this we'll have only 5 willpower left. We'll have to be very careful, spend it on nothing uncritical.
The idea that the truth can be found in the scholarship of the past is kinda opposite to Ash's experience of the Ascent - a lot of it has been learning by doing, or from those who found their truth in other places. Perhaps it could be found in scholarship, but that only works if the writings are available.
[X] Spend one Willpower, discussing truth without accepting his expositions of doctrine or him as an authority: Add this card to your Pneuma.
[x] [ASCENT] Keep exploring.
The idea that the truth can be found in the scholarship of the past is kinda opposite to Ash's experience of the Ascent - a lot of it has been learning by doing, or from those who found their truth in other places. Perhaps it could be found in scholarship, but that only works if the writings are available.
Behold: the knowledge is being made available to us now. That's the whole thing this is about. Like, vote how you wanna vote, but this particular objection is kinda weird to me.
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
Whether he's wholly right or not I'm sure there's wisdom. (Also getting the third [glory] card without having to complete a trial? Yes please.)
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
The idea that the truth can be found in the scholarship of the past is kinda opposite to Ash's experience of the Ascent - a lot of it has been learning by doing, or from those who found their truth in other places. Perhaps it could be found in scholarship, but that only works if the writings are available.
Most of the stuff on the highest ascent hasn't been in books, but they're offering to teach us now. Besides which the entire reason we even knew the mechanics of the ascent to start with was just how much Ash could learn from study. Without bonkers luck one needs a combination of scholarship and practice to make the ascent... Also I assume these cards are part of the final step of the ascent and we desperately need to find them.
Behold: the knowledge is being made available to us now. That's the whole thing this is about. Like, vote how you wanna vote, but this particular objection is kinda weird to me.
I can definitely see where Lightwhispers is coming from. There's no guarantee that what the Archimandrite has to teach will be helpful and directly applicable for Ash, any more than the Victorious Angel of the Strength card was directly helpful and aligned with Ash's values - and that's leaving aside the fact that some writings that fall under "the wisdom of the ages" are utter bunk, like at least one of the early sources that Ash was reading.
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
Here's a list of all the Trump (or Major Arcana) cards we've run into so far:
III THE EMPRESS
Mother Ancient. Must spend 1 Willpower, may end night without discarding Auras.
V THE HIEROPHANT
Literally a hierophant. Must spend 1 Willpower, may add choice of Trial-gated Trump card.
So far, these fall into three categories: Trials, Occult Finales, and meetings with greater entities of the Dreaming Realm. After this turn, we will have all remaining Trump cards shuffled into the deck. There will be 13 Trump cards. (Out of 38 cards total.) Of these Trump cards, I think it's a fair guess to say that the Trial-gated Trump cards ( VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, and XX Judgement) will be mechanically different than those we've seen so far. As has been speculated earlier, there may only be 6 Trials total, of which 3 would remain. And we've seen two Occult Finales, which may correspond to the four suits. Putting all that together, we may have 2 Occult Finales and 5 entity encounters left. After this turn, we'll only have 5 willpower, and 7 cards that will require us to spend willpower. (All Minor Arcana cards so far have had non-willpower costs and/or given us the choice to simply gain an aura from encountering them.)
Point is, I think we're at the point where we should never spend a Willpower on anything unless forced to do so. Unless we find a way to regain Willpower, or there are new mechanics we haven't seen yet, it seems possible that enough bad luck on the draw could force us to spend our remaining Willpower and end in a Wearied Finale.
P.S. If the earlier speculation is correct, then there would be 8 entity encounters, 6 trials, 4 occult finales, and 3 mystery/endgame trump cards. For a total of 21.
[X] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[*] Spend one Willpower, listening to the Archimandrite's sermon and trying to learn what he has to teach: Add this card to your Pneuma. Search the Unseen for any one of the following cards -- VI The Lovers, X Wheel of Fortune, XX Judgement -- and shuffle it into the Ascent Deck.
[*][ASCENT] Keep exploring.
You're briefly tempted to step out and speak to him after his sermon -- there's a part of you that likes winning insights and wisdom for yourself, that likes climbing up the mountain under your own power -- but you instead elect to stay and listen. Study has been the root of a lot of your success, and even if received wisdom is often imperfect, you're reminded of a maxim about the virtue of reading old books: even if they are caught up in the mistakes and blind spots of their eras, those will generally not be the same mistakes and blind spots of your era.
After enough time for you to have left if you wanted to, he begins.
"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. So the wisest of kings has written, and so I repeat to you.
"Time is fundamentally illusory. There is no linear arrow; there are cycles, and there are epicycles. To those with limited perspective, this creates the appearance of novelty, much as the movements of the planets seem riotous when compared to the steady turning of the fixed stars, and comets wilder still against the stately dance of the planets. But those who would be wise must step back and perceive the whole, just as all celestial bodies are ultimately governed by the same laws and can be predicted with certainty. History shows this. The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been. And as below, so above. The same principles which govern mortal affairs are those which govern the cosmos itself, from the waking world to the dreaming-realm to places stranger still.
"The only constant in life is change, but the eternal return is the stability that underlies every change. The wise understand that innovation and progress are but the rediscovery of ancient truths, clothed in new garments. This understanding brings both humility and insight. Each generation believes itself to be on the cusp of unprecedented discovery and transformation, facing down the eschaton. They are correct and yet incorrect, for each iteration of the world lasts for but an eye-blink before dying, and a new world shall rise from the waters. Wisdom lies in recognizing these patterns and understanding that the essence of our experiences is timeless: in understanding yourself part of a great chain, stretching not from past to future but linked back to its start."
He continues in this vein for some time, returning to the subject of historical narrative: its patterns, sub-patterns, and meta-patterns, and how the perspective one takes in the active present, the perspective one takes looking upon the fixed past, and the perspective one takes when looking upon the uncertain future are all flawed in different ways. Everything he says kind of makes sense. It is, after all, occult, and that word literally means hidden. You gripe and groan about the more unreadable books in your library, but you know just as well as Inanna that revelation, when it comes, is personal. Some things can't be explained: enlightenment has to be grasped by oneself or not at all.
Turns out that, even if you're just reading and talking rather than going on a dream-quest, understanding the highest supernal truths is hard.
Still. He's given you things to think about. There's something there, and you think you'll recognize it if you ever see it again. Ultimately, that's all you can really ask for at this level. When he finishes, you incline your head to him and leave the hall, squinting in the light as your eyes adjust. Then, you continue on your way.
IV THE EMPEROR
As you walk, you think about the things that the Archimandrite said, chewing them over and trying to extract the wisdom within them. It's like a toothache in your mind: you just kind of keep poking at it. As such, you aren't paying as much attention to where you're going as you should be, which is probably why you look up from your musings and find yourself, instead of on a steep mountain-slope, on a vast expanse of level ground upon which stands a massive... temple? Palace? Big-ass building. There are towering columns flanking enormous doors outside of which are tremendous steles and if this keeps up much longer you're going to run out of synonyms for "large."
You walk inside. Once again, you find yourself inside a hall. This time, though, it's not filled with monastics. It is nearly empty: the only one here besides you is the god.
Lord Ammon has been syncretized with Zeus, and Ra, and all manner of kings-of-heaven; and looking upon him, it is not hard to see why. His power is the ruling-power, and all around him, the dream bends with the gravity of his authority. He wears a crown of ram's horns, and sits upon a throne of cedar. His face is old and stern, but there is something kind in his eyes, even so.
He protects. He provides. It would be the most natural thing in the world to kneel before his feet, to ask for his aid, to pledge yourself to good conduct.
You do not, even as you approach his throne. It is not a case of heroic resistance: you can perceive, with your magical senses, that his power is withdrawn from the area around you. An act of courtesy, that he acknowledges your right to be here as a wise-dreamer without subjecting yourself to him. That act of courtesy is a major factor preventing you from simply turning on your heel and leaving, because there is no faster way to incense you, at this point in your life, than to assert dominion and control over you unilaterally. But he recognizes your self-sovereignty, and so you will hear what he has to say.
When you reach a comfortable distance, you stop, and only then does he speak.
"If you would seek a blessing from me, then be prepared for its rigors. My blessing is nothing more or less than this: instruction, and guidance, and training. I can teach you the old ways. I can make you canny and strong. I can prepare you to rule, as I rule. You are worthy of it, if you have the will. I have seen what you are, and judged. I have faith in you.
"Do not imagine that it will make things easier for you. Knowledge and power have never made things easier. They only make it possible for you to walk a harder road."
[] Spend one Willpower, discussing your skills, determination, and readiness with Lord Ammon: Add this card to your Pneuma. During this night only, you can Explore up to three additional times (to a maximum of nine instead of six).
[] Spend one Willpower, accepting ritual initiation into his priesthood and the burden of speaking with royal authority: Add this card to your Pneuma. Gain one Triumphant Initiation. Convert any number of Supernal resources you have into any other Supernal resources.
-[] Write-in what Supernals you are spending and what you are gaining.
[][ASCENT] Keep exploring.
[][ASCENT] Wake up, ending the Night.
Decks and Resources: Character Sheet Night-specific information: 2/max 6 (9?) Explorations
The deck has a Theme tonight and we are helpless in its grasp.
