How winning the Ascension War destroyed mage the Ascension

Oh, I love 1990s stuff too (I just wrote a giant essay about a roleplaying game). We all do, but we also hate it. I mean, look at what you wrote. "Cheesy." "Dorky." We love to 1990s pop culture, but most of all we love to hate it.
I think that's the exact opposite though? The 90s are a guilty pleasure; we love it in many ways because of its faults. The cheese and dorkitude are much of what makes it lovable. We use terms that were previous snarls in endearing ways because there's such a strong pull for a time where it was okay it just be kind of zany and never ever draw feet.

It's kind of a standard cycle of "I ironically love X" to "I unironically love X to show how unique I am" to "Everyone is willing to say they love X." I think we're pretty clearly on stages 2 and 3 here, where you can say "the 90s were fucking shit" and get a chorus of agreement followed by "but X, Y, and Z were great" which then turns into everyone talking about how much they loved 90s stuff.
 
How many mazes have you walked through would you say?

I happen to believe that human existence is, on balance, more suffering than not and the only thing preserving us is that we've developed, both biologically and sociologically, to view death as bad enough in the short term to dissuade us from it and that therefore, the best way forward for the whole human enterprise is to end it. This isn't a popular opinion but it's hardly an unusual or untenable one philosophically and is the cornerstone of most major religions which tend to agree right now sucks more than whatever comes after.

That said, it's not like there's no room for the End-for-a-New-Beginning sentiment here. The French Revolution was terrible when it happened, but modern society owes a lot to it. To classify all Nephandism as evil is to deny anything needs pruning ever.
 
It depends on your campaign. Generally they're more cosmological and less personified though. Like there's still the ideas of stasis, creation and destruction, but they are less personified into single beings.
Well it's an explicit part of the shared cosmology. Mage, especially where it pertains to avatars, is also based around the triat with the fourth "balanced" aspect floating in between the three.

I guess? It's hard for me to see something like the Nephandi as explicitly 'Wyrm' though, because the Wyrm, as its personified in the Garou cosmology, is not just entropy or change any longer but a significantly malevolent entity which seeks to corrupt and destroy everything because it's gone mad for Reasons (whether that's the Weaver or not depends on who you ask). I mean, it's way easier to apply the right - left dichotomy to Werewolf: the Apocalypse than Mage, if only because you play literal ecoterrorists who seek to stop the continuing destruction of Mother Earth by careless or even outright malevolent human entities which are backed by the cosmological force of the Wyrm on the one hand and the encroaching stasis of the Weaver on the other.

Even then, though, it's weird. The Garou, despite being eco-warrior for Gaia are an inherently conservative and even reactionary society that has strict societal roles, a caste system, and treats it's half-Garou members (Kinfolk) more as breeding stock than as people in many cases. On top of that, they don't really see anyone who's not Garou as worthy of consideration or personhood on a societal level (which can then be narrowed even further in cases like the Red Talons where Garou who are too human are also suspect). They also have strict rules about sexual and romantic relationships backed by the fact that two werewolves who have a kid risk death for the mother and are cursed to have a misshapen child no matter what. At the same time though, some of the Garou are however clumsily kind of meant to represent the disenfranchised people and minorities left behind by global capitalism in a lot of ways (lots of PoC representation in some tribes, even if you have literal fucking neo-Nazi Get of Fenris).

Sorry I ended up rambling about WtA oops.
 
I guess? It's hard for me to see something like the Nephandi as explicitly 'Wyrm' though, because the Wyrm, as its personified in the Garou cosmology, is not just entropy or change any longer but a significantly malevolent entity which seeks to corrupt and destroy everything because it's gone mad for Reasons (whether that's the Weaver or not depends on who you ask).

Wuff cosmology's inherently more binary but recent WtA do have them fighting Stasis as a way to bring the Wyrm back to its senses as an alternative rather than fighting it directly.

Much as it's been maligned over the years, the Wyrm is still acknowledged, grudgingly, as a vital cosmic force. It's a bit off-track because the Weaver is off-track but the world cannot function without all three.
 
Last edited:
I don't know (that) much about nMage


No, I'm saying the Seekers of the Throne are a monolith of dust and echos.

I feel like the point at which you both admit to knowing little about the thing you are arguing is overly simple and lacks complexity, and don't even know the name of the thing you are arguing about, is maybe the point at which you realize you might be kinda arguing from a place of ignorance.

I mean I could argue the Technocracy are a boring "evil bad guys rule the world" villain if I knew nothing about them other than the blurb on the back of an rpg sourcebook.
 
Last edited:
WtA is interesting in that it's inherently not really about ecoterrorism or rage or any of the big headline issues but really about the kind of structures that the disposed make for themselves (in the view of the authors). It's anti-atomization; fuck your 9-5 jobs, fuck your suburbs, fuck your freedom, we want a closely knit society with strict taboos that exists at the village level where everyone knows each other's name and we're free to stone any dissenters. This is incredibly attractive to a lot of people, especially those who feel like they're failing in current society that want to live in a place where social relations seem simpler; follow X rules and everything turns out well as everyone has certain obligations to each other.

It's more than just reactionary, WtA wants to burn it all down and go back to the good old dark ages.
 
Right, which is why I feel like using Garou terms like the Wyrm doesn't work when you're talking about Mage.

Well, it's the best we've got. "Moderate Nephandi" doesn't exist precisely because Nephandi have had a ludicrous number of things lumped under their umbrella and no nuanced terms for different aspects of them exist. It's a massive disservice to a side of the struggle that should be on equal standing with Marauders, Trads and Technocracy. Nevertheless, the theme of a three-way balance exists in Mage just as much as it does in Werewolf.
 
I don't quite agree here. Iteration X can easily be your more techo-libertarian Thiels selling Palantir, the Syndicate are your Kochs who are spending their money on social policy, and as you said the NWO are neocons. You don't have an explicit racial/nationalist bent, but it's super easy to twist the NWO into the modern multilateral nationalistic bent that you see white supremacists and other Bannonites espousing.

Sure you have to alter the angle a little bit, but it's been decades since they came up with this, shit changes.

I mean, the thing is that the Koch brothers' spending on social policy is much closer to leftist than rightist thought, and is in part due to their wish to make greater profits by reducing taxes. The Syndicate are the exact opposite-them making a profit should be, and oftentimes is, incidental to the fact that they exist as a colluding group of "rich globalists" seeking to advance the death of nationalism and religion. Syndicate meetings are where cyborg George Soros and Space Marine Paul Krugman talk about how economic policy can be used to uplift the global poor and break down national borders, then have an incredibly muscular posthuman handshake.

The techno-libertarian space is generally taken up by how the Virtual Adepts work, and the Iteration X aesthetic is pretty incompatible with SV neo-Nazi-like "freedom of expression means that you should be able to debate whether the Holocaust is right." Iteration X is actually super authoritarian, it's just a leftist sort of authoritarianism. I've called it "basically a military that has a R&D wing" a few times.

And yes, the NWO can be neocons but the neocons are also generally opposed to the modern right wing. Certainly they're at best willing to use the modern right wing as useful idiots to advance their own ideologies, which are incompatible with the modern right wing.

The thing about Mage is that it's also not a great vehicle to deal with the modern left-versus-right dichotomy because Mage is a game which is not great at dealing with bad-faith hypocrisy, since it's what the masses you're selling your (hypocrisy) to believe that fundamentally matters the most. And the modern right is basically full of bad-faith hypocrisy on a fundamental level, because if it actually tried to sell what it Really Wanted, nobody would vote for it.
 
I think there's a fundamental error here in assuming that White Wolf was ever in any sense woke. The company was run mostly on repressed ex-evangelical sexuality and an anti-authoritanism that draws more from Ayn Rand and Tyler Durden than anything left of center. That's why we got stuff like 1e Lunars "noble savage" wank, the right wing conspiracy shit in oMage, or the actual crime against humanity that was oWoD Gypsies. Heck you could make the argument that spirit is still alive despite WW being dead and it's corpse picked clean given the abuse apologia in CD: Beast.
 
Last edited:
I mean, the thing is that the Koch brothers' spending on social policy is much closer to leftist than rightist thought, and is in part due to their wish to make greater profits by reducing taxes. The Syndicate are the exact opposite-them making a profit should be, and oftentimes is, incidental to the fact that they exist as a colluding group of "rich globalists" seeking to advance the death of nationalism and religion. Syndicate meetings are where cyborg George Soros and Space Marine Paul Krugman talk about how economic policy can be used to uplift the global poor and break down national borders, then have an incredibly muscular posthuman handshake.

The techno-libertarian space is generally taken up by how the Virtual Adepts work, and the Iteration X aesthetic is pretty incompatible with SV neo-Nazi-like "freedom of expression means that you should be able to debate whether the Holocaust is right." Iteration X is actually super authoritarian, it's just a leftist sort of authoritarianism. I've called it "basically a military that has a R&D wing" a few times.

And yes, the NWO can be neocons but the neocons are also generally opposed to the modern right wing. Certainly they're at best willing to use the modern right wing as useful idiots to advance their own ideologies, which are incompatible with the modern right wing.

The thing about Mage is that it's also not a great vehicle to deal with the modern left-versus-right dichotomy because Mage is a game which is not great at dealing with bad-faith hypocrisy, since it's what the masses you're selling your (hypocrisy) to believe that fundamentally matters the most. And the modern right is basically full of bad-faith hypocrisy on a fundamental level, because if it actually tried to sell what it Really Wanted, nobody would vote for it.

I'm saying you just need to twist a little bit to actually get them to represent the modern right wing, not that the exact positions were the modern right wing; the game is almost 3 decades old after all. After all, it's not like the modern right wing hasn't eaten much of the previous one; Lindsey Graham and John Bolton are devout Trumpets, Thiel and Koch give the GOP a ton of money, your "I should be able to say what I want like the Holocaust didn't happen but if it did they had it coming" crowd is quick to try and shut down the speech of anyone they dislike because principles are hard.

I'm not quite sure I agree with you on the Koch spending on social policy; 90% of the time it's "we should defund government agencies and let non-profits do this work instead;" criminal justice reform and immigration are pretty much the only clearly left wing action rather than ends they support and that's just because you can't privatize them (yet).
 
I'm saying you just need to twist a little bit to actually get them to represent the modern right wing, not that the exact positions were the modern right wing; the game is almost 3 decades old after all. After all, it's not like the modern right wing hasn't eaten much of the previous one; Lindsey Graham and John Bolton are devout Trumpets, Thiel and Koch give the GOP a ton of money, your "I should be able to say what I want like the Holocaust didn't happen but if it did they had it coming" crowd is quick to try and shut down the speech of anyone they dislike because principles are hard.

I'm not quite sure I agree with you on the Koch spending on social policy; 90% of the time it's "we should defund government agencies and let non-profits do this work instead;" criminal justice reform and immigration are pretty much the only clearly left wing action rather than ends they support and that's just because you can't privatize them (yet).

I mean when you're stripping them of their ideology and much of their aesthetic you're not really twisting them "a little bit."

The only Conventions which can become modern western rightwingers with a little bit of modification are the Progenitors and Void Engineers. Just deemphasize the universal healthcare and world health organization bits of the Progenitors for big pharma, and the VEs can easily be turned into Imperialists-meet-ICE.

A lot of the things you talk about for the rest of the Conventions are basically rewriting a Convention from a brief and limited one sentence summary.
 
I mean, the thing is that the Koch brothers' spending on social policy is much closer to leftist than rightist thought, and is in part due to their wish to make greater profits by reducing taxes. The Syndicate are the exact opposite-them making a profit should be, and oftentimes is, incidental to the fact that they exist as a colluding group of "rich globalists" seeking to advance the death of nationalism and religion. Syndicate meetings are where cyborg George Soros and Space Marine Paul Krugman talk about how economic policy can be used to uplift the global poor and break down national borders, then have an incredibly muscular posthuman handshake.

The techno-libertarian space is generally taken up by how the Virtual Adepts work, and the Iteration X aesthetic is pretty incompatible with SV neo-Nazi-like "freedom of expression means that you should be able to debate whether the Holocaust is right." Iteration X is actually super authoritarian, it's just a leftist sort of authoritarianism. I've called it "basically a military that has a R&D wing" a few times.

And yes, the NWO can be neocons but the neocons are also generally opposed to the modern right wing. Certainly they're at best willing to use the modern right wing as useful idiots to advance their own ideologies, which are incompatible with the modern right wing.

The thing about Mage is that it's also not a great vehicle to deal with the modern left-versus-right dichotomy because Mage is a game which is not great at dealing with bad-faith hypocrisy, since it's what the masses you're selling your (hypocrisy) to believe that fundamentally matters the most. And the modern right is basically full of bad-faith hypocrisy on a fundamental level, because if it actually tried to sell what it Really Wanted, nobody would vote for it.


I honestly don't like it. It's basically interpretation which tries hard to sell Technocracy of well-intentioned saints. It's a reasonable interpretation, naturally, canon is a spook, but I personally don't like this one.


Way i see it, Technocracy is a whole bundle of "establishment"/"end of history" type of folks - the established elites ruling the world, who went to the broadly same Magical Ivy League and probably participated in same rapey Enlightened fraternities, like Kappa Sigma or Order of Lamda Calculus but it's actually magic.

They are, basically, what C-suits and dragons are in Shadowrun: powers that be, those who 'won' the history and are now busily rewriting it to their whims (which depend on internal politics but they, like CCP, don't admit it even if it costs them). Trads are, well, more organized shadowrunners, magical Triads, powerbrokers for those who have fallen through the cracks of shiny and bright and clinically functional New World Order. Those who don't fit into neat schemes and castles in the sky of the status quo defenders and thus may as well not exist, or should not exist.

Technocracy, I think, is first and foremost "status quo which profits those who in power". It is only left/right as much as left/right are divided on value of supporting status quo because they profit for it it's for Greater Good, with, and that's crucially vital, them getting to define what is Greater Good.


TL;DR: Technocracy/Trads divide maps, I think, way better onto status quo establishment/fallen through cracks and left behind kind of divide than on any other.

edit: naturally, neither is good guys; status quo guys are oftentimes Khornites bombing out acceptable third world countries as a part of powerplays (often internal) or cleansing minorities, the change guys can be either Black Panthers or just as well, iunno, Taliban or Al Quaeda.
 
Last edited:
TL;DR: Technocracy/Trads divide maps, I think, way better onto status quo establishment/fallen through cracks and left behind kind of divide than on any other.

Yes, but when you're doing that you're not writing the Technocracy as it has been fairly consistently characterized by oMage anymore. The Technocracy have a lot of the trappings of powerful people in the status quo, but the Technocracy have been fundamentally utopian since like, 1994.

It's consistent that the status quo for the Technocracy is a transitory state, and they have an actual end state they're working towards that looks pretty radically different from the current day and they're not just people who want to preserve the current order. Whether their endgoal is good or bad is entirely irrelevant as to the fact that for the Technocracy, the current world is still a mere transitory state to an idealized world, and they have no particular attachment to the current state except insofar as disrupting it might prevent them from using it to get closer to their endgoal. Maybe you want to change that, and maybe changing that would be better for your game, but it's not really a minor change to turn the Technocracy from utopians to status quo defenders.

Like, your take is basically Technocracy-as-Wizard Camarilla, which is probably a fine scenario in and of itself, but the Technocracy haven't presented as the Wizard Camarilla since First Edition.
 
Last edited:
Yes, but when you're doing that you're not writing the Technocracy as it has been fairly consistently characterized by oMage anymore. The Technocracy have a lot of the trappings of powerful people in the status quo, but the Technocracy have been fundamentally utopian since like, 1994.

It's consistent that the status quo for the Technocracy is a transitory state, and they have an actual end state they're working towards and they're not just people who want to preserve the current order. Whether their endgoal is good or bad is entirely irrelevant as to the fact that for the Technocracy, the current world is still a mere transitory state to an idealized world, and they have no particular attachment to the current state except insofar as disrupting it might prevent them from using it to get closer to their endgoal. Maybe you want to change that, and maybe changing that would be better for your game, but it's not really a minor change to turn the Technocracy from utopians to status quo defenders.

Like, your take is basically Technocracy-as-Wizard Camarilla, which is probably a fine scenario in and of itself, but the Technocracy haven't presented as the Wizard Camarilla since First Edition.

I mean, status quo is...a process, I'd say?
It's rare to see status quo defender who does not implicitly or explicitly and very loudly mean "improving the situation towards future I envision in a way I do" and actually means stagnation exactly-as-is.

For example, going to war with Iraq was not very status quo-esque, it upset a lot of things in Middle East for the sake of...something. Sating the bloodlust and desire for control after 9/11. And yet, Bush dynasty, Bolton and so on are an epitome of privileged protectors of status quo.

So while there is, of course, a contradiction of sorts between radical utopianism and status quo defense, I don't think they are all that mutually exclusive.

Like, when we talk about IRL political status quo protection, we still talk about people who want GDP to rise, crime rate to fall, new discoveries to occur and people to become happier. It's just that they want to stay on top of the process and, if pushed to choose between relinquishing control and sacrificing improvements, would prefer the latter. With, naturally, a myriad of justifications - that they may well believe themselves - about it being a greater good in the ephemeral long run.


TL;DR: They tell they aim for utopia and believe it themselves. It only makes them not-protectors of status quo in the same way Bill Gates or Bill Clinton are radical utopianists who abhor status quo.
 
TL;DR: They tell they aim for utopia and believe it themselves. It only makes them not-protectors of status quo in the same way Bill Gates or Bill Clinton are radical utopianists who abhor status quo.

Bill Gates and Bill Clinton wanted, basically, "the modern world but better." People are less poor, places are more democratic, but fundamentally the world they wanted looked like the world that they were living in. If they snapped a finger and suddenly put their dream world into place it wouldn't look very different from the world a second ago. The endstate of pretty much every Technocratic Convention is pretty radical. Like, the Technocracy is incrementalist, but they're not exactly tinkering around the edges of the status quo. The DSA are incrementalist as well, but one probably wouldn't call them 'status quo defenders' even if they took over the US Democratic Party.

Mage doesn't have status quo defenders, not really. Ever since White Wolf gave up on the idea of the Technocracy being the Wizard Camarilla, there's been a giant hole in Mage for small-c conservative (and large-C Conservative) politics. The Technocracy are incrementalist left-utopians, the Traditions are radicalist left-utopians, and the Nephandi are a weird death cult who I guess you could sort of map to fascism? "Fascists hate themselves as well, which is why they idolize glorious death" etc etc. But that still leaves the status quo as a gigantic hole.
 
Bill Gates and Bill Clinton wanted, basically, "the modern world but better." People are less poor, places are more democratic, but fundamentally the world they wanted looked like the world that they were living in. If they snapped a finger and suddenly put their dream world into place it wouldn't look very different from the world a second ago. The endstate of pretty much every Technocratic Convention is pretty radical. Like, the Technocracy is incrementalist, but they're not exactly tinkering around the edges of the status quo. The DSA are incrementalist as well, but one probably wouldn't call them 'status quo defenders' even if they took over the US Democratic Party.

Mage doesn't have status quo defenders, not really. Ever since White Wolf gave up on the idea of the Technocracy being the Wizard Camarilla, there's been a giant hole in Mage for small-c conservative (and large-C Conservative) politics. The Technocracy are incrementalist left-utopians, the Traditions are radicalist left-utopians, and the Nephandi are a weird death cult who I guess you could sort of map to fascism? "Fascists hate themselves as well, which is why they idolize glorious death" etc etc. But that still leaves the status quo as a gigantic hole.

Okay, fair enough I suppose.
I still think there are some, but your point is well made.
 
I'd wouldn't give any company that published oWoD: Gypsies credit for "General anti-racism" and I kinda offended that you would.
Because Gypsies happened once, White Wolf disowned it and also published the most thoughtful book on the Holocaust in the entire RPG industry. I'm all for criticizing White Wolf for being dumb, but trying to shut down debate by going "I'm offended that you would even conceive of this" is a frankly ridiculous line of critique. You can't just take a single book, no matter how awful and treat it as if it is representative of the entire company policy. Especially not when that company has gone through ridiculous amounts of change over the years and makes heavy use of freelancers.
 
I'd wouldn't give any company that published oWoD: Gypsies credit for "General anti-racism" and I'm kinda offended that you would.

You can be against something and also be terrible at being against it. Early White Wolf is a company that gives off the impression of generally allying with people who think that racism is bad and denounce racism, while also being rather blind to their own racism.
 
Bill Gates and Bill Clinton wanted, basically, "the modern world but better." People are less poor, places are more democratic, but fundamentally the world they wanted looked like the world that they were living in. If they snapped a finger and suddenly put their dream world into place it wouldn't look very different from the world a second ago.

I think you've got a misunderstanding of just how radical politics in the 1990s was here. Like, the dreams of at least Clinton, (who knows about Gates, he was a giant nerd so he probably did dream of electric dreams of a future ruled by silicon and superconductor) were limited in that they weren't science fiction, but they were still very radical.

In the 1990s, Clinton, and fellow travelers like Blair tried to:
1: Create truely rules based and law-based international order
2: Revolutionize the way that international trade was done
3: In general break down the very idea of countries as single sovereign units.

Like, the whole New World Order thing wasn't true, but it didn't come out of nowhere. What they didn't have were radical domestic agendas. You could fairly easily see this as a product of the technocracy.

Similarly under Bush, a conservative, you again saw real radicalism. A master plan to democratize the world through military strength. A desire to purge a whole ways of warfare.

They didn't succeed in this but that was because their power was limited, not because the desire was not there. If actual reality is the point where stasis lies, then the Technocracy easily fit into it.

Edit: Honestly, I think the place where the technocracy falls apart as an alogary for the exstablishment is it's lack of anyone religous. It has those NWO guys but they're kind of soft peddled.
 
Last edited:
I feel like it should be easy enough to portray Small c conservatives in the technocracy, if only because the world of mage is fundamentally wrong and awakening requires you to understand that.

The status quo sucks and it can too easily be changed into something even worse.

So most of the disagreement should stem from what to do about it and how to do it.

There's serious room for people that want to build better systems because they're worried that no matter who wins it'd be meaningless if we end up where we started the first war and do it all again.

Meanwhile Neph's are people who see the whole thing and want to tear it down. Presumably because they've gone insane but also because the system isn't working. The war is stretching towards eternity and while life has improved the sleepers are perhaps less able then ever to truly affect their situation. At least in the old days they knew who they were oppressed by.
 
I think it's important to remember that in mage, Stasis is not actually complete nothing happening, but rather that any changes be absolutely predictable. The Technocracy really want a completely clockwork universe. One that's completely predictable and causal.
 
Back
Top