Horus (Warhammer40k) vs Guardian "Raid" Team (Destiny)

What does teleportation have to do anything with more power? This is like saying that I can't drown if I had infinite endurance but wasn't allowed to get out of the bottom of the ocean.
Well, you said he can manipulate all of space and time and drag the entire Solar System into his pocket world, so if his big plan is to get Empy to sit on a single chair and he can't manage that with his infinite power that lets him manipulate space and time then...

Again, is he stupid? Why doesn't he just mind control the Emperor into being on his side if he's got infinite psychic power? Or just retcon history so that he always already won?
 
Anyway, the important thing to remember about Horus is that the Chaos gods ascended him wrong, as a joke.

The fact that Abaddon still has his blessings while Horus got pranked is all the proof we need. To reiterate, a guy who can't keep his arms managed to keep the blessings Horus lost.
 
and he can't manage that with his infinite power that lets him manipulate space and time then...

Yes, he cannot do that better than the Emperor can. The Emperor uses the Lupercal court better than Horus ever can, which is how he drags Horus back to Cthonia, the past Cthonia.

Again, is he stupid? Why doesn't he just mind control the Emperor into being on his side if he's got infinite psychic power? Or just retcon history so that he always already won?

It is because the past cannot be retconned. Once an action is done, it is done.

There's an entire thread of proof, you just don't read them. At least you read the shitposts so clearly my time is better spent on those.

There is no proof posted by you Renu, there are nothing but shit posts and bitching. The only one who did post proof was Scooby Doo, I had addressed all of them several times before, quote by quote with my own counter evidence.

He at least had the decency to understand when he lost and conceded.

I'm reading and thinking just fine, calm the hell down and take a joke. It isn't even at your expense lol

I didn't mean to quote in the first place, clicked that by mistake. Sorry.

The entire Great Crusade and Horus Heresy makes a lot more sense if you assume both Horus and the Emperor were both sniffing glue the entire time

It would make a lot more sense if you started to use your eyes and read.

Oh, I see, this was all a marketing trick.

Ok, scratch that then. Replace it with 'Hey, could you at least stop clogging the thread up with shit posts since you aren't going to read the books anyway?"

Anyway, the important thing to remember about Horus is that the Chaos gods ascended him wrong, as a joke.

The fact that Abaddon still has his blessings while Horus got pranked is all the proof we need. To reiterate, a guy who can't keep his arms managed to keep the blessings Horus lost.

Man, do you never feel tired of doing this?
 
Anyway, the important thing to remember about Horus is that the Chaos gods ascended him wrong, as a joke.

The fact that Abaddon still has his blessings while Horus got pranked is all the proof we need. To reiterate, a guy who can't keep his arms managed to keep the blessings Horus lost.

Failbbaddon has poked the Imperium for years with his big reality-cleaving sword.
 
oh okay so it's not infinite power since empy is better, neato

Talk about an utterly brain dead take lol.

Just because you have more power doesn't mean that you are necessarily better at wielding it.

If I was a billionaire and had a gun that shoots infinitely powerful laser beams doesn't mean that I'd be better at wielding it than soldiers who know how to use guns.

Learn2Logic.
 
Man, do you never feel tired of doing this?
Nah, having fun, thanks for asking.

By the way, despite the phrasing everything (except the arms bit) still is canon.

Sorry to break it to you, but Horus' role is to lose and the guardians kill gods and deal with paracausal bullshit on the daily. Horus just loses. Read the destiny lore that was sent to you, it's all in there. I didn't send you more because it all was already posted.
 
Imagine...
Imagine a World where...

A buffed Primarch barely more buffed than a Carnifex can throw solar-systems around and move at the speed of Darkness...
A World where speaking figuratively doesn't exist...




In The End and the Death, Dan Abnett literally addresses the myth-vs-fact tension:


"This is a snapshot of what really happened, where the myth grew from. What the myth becomes is probably more important to Warhammer."
Warhammer Community Interview
 
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The thing you have to remember is that Horus was weak, Horus was a fool, Horus held the entire galaxy in the palm of his hand and he was too feminized by wokeness and diversity to close it into a fist.

If Perturabo had been the one annointed at Moloch, Perturabo the man of facts and logic not wishy washy vibes, a man who purged his Legion of the decadence and frailty engendered by the feminine LONG before Isstvan V (true story read Angel Exterminatus no girl cooties diluting the warrior ethos of the IV Legion) if Perturabo had been the Warmaster of the Rebellion the Iron Warriors would be ruling from Terra in M42.
 
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Yes. Because the Emperor takes the form of Loken, engages in a philosophical debate where he says that colors have meaning, Horus hesitates and then decides to let go of his powers for a moment and mourn the death of the Emperor, when he does that, he realizes that it's a trick and that the Emperor took the form of Loken and looks aside, finding the Emperor's body gone, then the Emperor (Who's now empowered by the entire Galaxy praying for him at once) fights Horus again, Horus realizes how utterly mad he'd become and begs the Emperor to kill him, the Emperor forgives Horus and stabs him with the anathame dagger.

Ok so you've entirely misread that scene, then, good to know.

It isn't the Emperor pretending to be Loken. It is, in fact, Loken - Horus' gene-son, once one of his most trusted subordinates, a man who was there at the beginning of the Heresy and has returned in time to witness its end. Loken who, in that moment, sincerely believes that Horus has won the war and killed the Emperor, and so appeals to Horus on those grounds.

Loken who says "you have won, so please, stop. Think. What do you want your victory to look like?"

And Horus, who at the end of it all is still Horus, still the man who values comradeship and brotherhood and the bonds he shares with his fellows - Horus considers this, and he decides that he wants to win this war as Horus Lupercal. Not as the embodied champion of the Chaos Gods, not as the Dark King Incarnate, but as the man he was and still is beneath it all.

This is the core theme of the entire climax! Horus fights the Emperor, but it isn't either of them who decide what happens then, not entirely. Loken appeals to the humanity within Horus and asks him to set the power aside, just as Ollanius appeals to the humanity with the Emperor and asks the same, and they are both successful because Horus and the Emperor are not so different at the core. And then the Emperor is empowered by the faith of the people who believe in his vision and his divine nature, by men like Sigismund and women like Euphrati Keeler, while Horus stands alone, the Chaos Gods spitefully refusing to return the mantle he suddenly needs again in order to teach him a lesson. And so Horus dies.

If you don't understand this much, then you don't understand Horus, and your reasoning is built on faulty foundations.
 
…what does that have to do with fighting twelve people? Plenary of characters can do big flashy shit like that and then suck at actually fighting compared to that big feat. Your solar system imprisonment/other big flashy set piece making skills don't tend to interact much your fighting the hero skills. For example, The Emperor from Star Wars makes a spaceship frying lightning storm in canon and a fucking fleet wrecking black hole in legends, and if I remember correctly both times he gets murdered by some idiot with a laser sword.

Fun. If he could singlehandedly take the whole army down there, Big E, and all the loyal Primarchs then there's no reason for there to be a siege of Terra at all, so there's either some reason for that you've yet to mention or it's a shit book you shouldn't be taking quotes from.
The End and the Death is actually really good, Cornflakes just doesn't understand the book basically at all. It's full of poetic metaphor and allegory and fun narrative stuff, Cornflakes just takes it both way more literally than one is meant to and also didn't really understand the book in the first place based on some of the stuff they've been saying here about it. Basically did a really surface level read of a pretty complicated and long book.
 
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Ok, since you think we need to logic better, I'm going to extrapolate from your claim regarding Horus having infinite power. If we are to take this statement literally, then it stands to reason we must do the same when reading other pieces of 40k media. Correct?

Thus, when a plasma reactor or fusion reactor detonates, and is described, as is common, as "a newborn sun", we should assume that in fact, a stellar body the size of our sun has formed in the middle of the battle, instantly killing the entire planet and forming a gravity well that throws the rest of the solar system into chaos.

When a Tyranid or Ork horde attacks, and is described in a novel or codex as "uncountable", or "endless", we must assume that in fact, the number of orks/tyranids is so large that mechanicus cogitators or Necron computers or what have you literally cannot count that high, in the first case, or that in the latter, that there are an infinite number of orks or tyranids in that battle.

When the impact of something strong is described as "like the fist of an angry god", you are saying whatever that is hits with equivalent force to a literal god, and we should assume that a punch from Khorne is equal to whatever mortal weapon or strong person that is.

Whenever one of the space marines gets angry and described as "their choler rose" or something similar, we should assume that in fact, the defunct medieval medical theory of the four humors is real science in the 40k universe.

When, in Betrayer, Magnus the red is described as looking like a pagan idol of burnished copper, we need to assume that he actually looks like some he's made out of copper

Whenever a custodes's armor is described simply as "gold", we should assume that it is in fact, made of the element with the atomic number 79, and is thus soft and malleable and provides poor protection.

When the Heresy is described as having "set the galaxy aflame", we should assume that in fact, the majority of the Milky Way galaxy, even the literal light years of empty void between star systems, was at that moment literally on fire, despite the physical impossibility of such a thing and the lack of fuel.

That Horus's power being described as infinite, that means we should assume he could delete the entire observable universe with a snap of his fingers, rewrite reality to retroactively make the emperor his slavishly loyal supporter from day 1, and the emperor could do nothing to stop him.

Do you see the issue here? This is the logical conclusion of your way of interpreting things.
 
Ok, since you think we need to logic better, I'm going to extrapolate from your claim regarding Horus having infinite power. If we are to take this statement literally, then it stands to reason we must do the same when reading other pieces of 40k media. Correct?

Thus, when a plasma reactor or fusion reactor detonates, and is described, as is common, as "a newborn sun", we should assume that in fact, a stellar body the size of our sun has formed in the middle of the battle, instantly killing the entire planet and forming a gravity well that throws the rest of the solar system into chaos.

When a Tyranid or Ork horde attacks, and is described in a novel or codex as "uncountable", or "endless", we must assume that in fact, the number of orks/tyranids is so large that mechanicus cogitators or Necron computers or what have you literally cannot count that high, in the first case, or that in the latter, that there are an infinite number of orks or tyranids in that battle.

When the impact of something strong is described as "like the fist of an angry god", you are saying whatever that is hits with equivalent force to a literal god, and we should assume that a punch from Khorne is equal to whatever mortal weapon or strong person that is.

Whenever one of the space marines gets angry and described as "their choler rose" or something similar, we should assume that in fact, the defunct medieval medical theory of the four humors is real science in the 40k universe.

When, in Betrayer, Magnus the red is described as looking like a pagan idol of burnished copper, we need to assume that he actually looks like some he's made out of copper

Whenever a custodes's armor is described simply as "gold", we should assume that it is in fact, made of the element with the atomic number 79, and is thus soft and malleable and provides poor protection.

When the Heresy is described as having "set the galaxy aflame", we should assume that in fact, the majority of the Milky Way galaxy, even the literal light years of empty void between star systems, was at that moment literally on fire, despite the physical impossibility of such a thing and the lack of fuel.

That Horus's power being described as infinite, that means we should assume he could delete the entire observable universe with a snap of his fingers, rewrite reality to retroactively make the emperor his slavishly loyal supporter from day 1, and the emperor could do nothing to stop him.

Do you see the issue here? This is the logical conclusion of your way of interpreting things.

Honestly, powerscaling is to blame here. It's like people believes this Deatbattle nonsenses. That's a disservice.
 
I really don't think you understand what the word "infinite" means.

Explain it to me then, man. I'm like, dying to imparted with your divine knowlagde.

Sorry to break it to you, but Horus' role is to lose and the guardians kill gods and deal with paracausal bullshit on the daily. Horus just loses. Read the destiny lore that was sent to you, it's all in there. I didn't send you more because it all was already posted.

The lore quotes....that I already addressed and debunked?

Ok, since you think we need to logic better, I'm going to extrapolate from your claim regarding Horus having infinite power. If we are to take this statement literally, then it stands to reason we must do the same when reading other pieces of 40k media. Correct?

Thus, when a plasma reactor or fusion reactor detonates, and is described, as is common, as "a newborn sun", we should assume that in fact, a stellar body the size of our sun has formed in the middle of the battle, instantly killing the entire planet and forming a gravity well that throws the rest of the solar system into chaos.

When a Tyranid or Ork horde attacks, and is described in a novel or codex as "uncountable", or "endless", we must assume that in fact, the number of orks/tyranids is so large that mechanicus cogitators or Necron computers or what have you literally cannot count that high, in the first case, or that in the latter, that there are an infinite number of orks or tyranids in that battle.

When the impact of something strong is described as "like the fist of an angry god", you are saying whatever that is hits with equivalent force to a literal god, and we should assume that a punch from Khorne is equal to whatever mortal weapon or strong person that is.

Whenever one of the space marines gets angry and described as "their choler rose" or something similar, we should assume that in fact, the defunct medieval medical theory of the four humors is real science in the 40k universe.

When, in Betrayer, Magnus the red is described as looking like a pagan idol of burnished copper, we need to assume that he actually looks like some he's made out of copper

Whenever a custodes's armor is described simply as "gold", we should assume that it is in fact, made of the element with the atomic number 79, and is thus soft and malleable and provides poor protection.

When the Heresy is described as having "set the galaxy aflame", we should assume that in fact, the majority of the Milky Way galaxy, even the literal light years of empty void between star systems, was at that moment literally on fire, despite the physical impossibility of such a thing and the lack of fuel.

That Horus's power being described as infinite, that means we should assume he could delete the entire observable universe with a snap of his fingers, rewrite reality to retroactively make the emperor his slavishly loyal supporter from day 1, and the emperor could do nothing to stop him.

Do you see the issue here? This is the logical conclusion of your way of interpreting things.

Ok, so, here's the thing, most of these aren't interpreted literally because none of them happen, a plasma reactor going off with the 'power of a dying sun' doesn't kill the world or the solar system that it goes of in. However, there is nothing contradicting Horus's power being endless.

Ok so you've entirely misread that scene, then, good to know.

It isn't the Emperor pretending to be Loken. It is, in fact, Loken - Horus' gene-son, once one of his most trusted subordinates, a man who was there at the beginning of the Heresy and has returned in time to witness its end. Loken who, in that moment, sincerely believes that Horus has won the war and killed the Emperor, and so appeals to Horus on those grounds.

Loken who says "you have won, so please, stop. Think. What do you want your victory to look like?"

And Horus, who at the end of it all is still Horus, still the man who values comradeship and brotherhood and the bonds he shares with his fellows - Horus considers this, and he decides that he wants to win this war as Horus Lupercal. Not as the embodied champion of the Chaos Gods, not as the Dark King Incarnate, but as the man he was and still is beneath it all.

This is the core theme of the entire climax! Horus fights the Emperor, but it isn't either of them who decide what happens then, not entirely. Loken appeals to the humanity within Horus and asks him to set the power aside, just as Ollanius appeals to the humanity with the Emperor and asks the same, and they are both successful because Horus and the Emperor are not so different at the core. And then the Emperor is empowered by the faith of the people who believe in his vision and his divine nature, by men like Sigismund and women like Euphrati Keeler, while Horus stands alone, the Chaos Gods spitefully refusing to return the mantle he suddenly needs again in order to teach him a lesson. And so Horus dies.

If you don't understand this much, then you don't understand Horus, and your reasoning is built on faulty foundations.

This is fair, I could be misremembering a detail or two since it's been a long time since I've read that book.

Doesn't change the outcome of the debate though.
 
Ok, so, here's the thing, most of these aren't interpreted literally because none of them happen, a plasma reactor going off with the 'power of a dying sun' doesn't kill the world or the solar system that it goes of in. However, there is nothing contradicting Horus's power being endless.
I'd say him losing is a pretty big point against him having endless power ngl.
 
Explain it to me then, man. I'm like, dying to imparted with your divine knowlagde.
To start with,
If I was a billionaire and had a gun that shoots infinitely powerful laser beams doesn't mean that I'd be better at wielding it than soldiers who know how to use guns.
an infinitely powerful laser beam does not need to be aimed. Its secondary effects would at minimum destroy everything around it at lightspeed in all directions, never stopping.
 
Explain it to me then, man. I'm like, dying to imparted with your divine knowlagde.
Can you guess what would happen if the most well-trained boxer in the entire universe went toe-to-toe with Johnny Infiniteforcepunch who has never trained a day in his life but has the curious ability to punch with literal, genuine, actually infinite power?

Hint: the boxer (and everything else in the universe) aren't going to come off well.
 
I'd say him losing is a pretty big point against him having endless power ngl.

How did the Emperor beat him ?
Is his power twice infinite ?! Is it ?!
This demands investigation ! 🧐

Can you guess what would happen if the most well-trained boxer in the entire universe went toe-to-toe with Johnny Infiniteforcepunch who has never trained a day in his life but has the curious ability to punch with literal, genuine, actually infinite power?

Hint: the boxer (and everything else in the universe) aren't going to come off well.

I almost want to see a thread Saitama vs Horus now.

Brrrrr.
 
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