Hazing, Heroism, and Hatred - Let's Read Worm!

My favorite part of this thread is when people do not read what I wrote and then try to explain things to Worm about me like I have not read it all before.

e - Because of that, I must go back into the deep, dark pit that is Worm Arc 1.2 - In Which Taylor Is On A Bus And Nothing Happens.

Except you really don't give the impression of having read it. Taylor is not portrayed as a perfect flawless character who never does anything wrong. A lot of the time when she's up against an informed opponent she's unable to give a good answer, and even has to admit that the other side has a point. You also expressed skepticism at the nature of the bullying; Egleris provided an example of bullying that was particularly nasty and mentioned how Wildbow actually toned down a lot of the stories that he heard in that support group.

Bystander Effect | Psychology Today

Another thing is that if anything it can also be arguing that high school really isn't that important once you leave it. In Arc 20 Taylor meets Emma again.....and is able to shrug her off largely because when compared to truly evil fuckbags like coil and the slaughterhouse 9, Emma isn't really that big a deal. Emma's antics (even the crueler stuff) might seem like the most unbearable torture at the time but once Taylor gets perspective (being in Noelle's belly, being tortured by bonesaw, having to outplay a guy who's power allows him to constantly be two steps ahead) it's like......"wait a second. You're not scary. You're pathetic." It's like if you're playing world of warcraft; some of the enemies in starter missions might seem overwhelming but once you've fought the demons of the burning legion and the scourge elite death knights fighting those level 5 gnolls isn't even a challenge.

Emma becoming irrelevant is kind of the point; what seems big and scary when you're younger or in high school quickly seems piffling once you experience real darkness and evil.
 
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I actually really liked the introductory chapters of Worm, and would even point to them as an example of how to introduce readers to an original fantasy or scifi setting.

Start with a character in a very recognizable setting (a high school that looks pretty much like high schools in the real world). Immediately pose a mystery to the reader (why is she eating lunch in the bathroom?), and then answer it in a way that both gets the reader invested and raises more questions (she's being bullied...how did things get this bad?). Only then, once the reader has some investment and grounding in the setting, do we see anything fantastical (Taylor can control bugs), and from there the camera slowly zooms out to show that the surrounding world is a fantastical one (superhero setting with kaijus and shit).

Its a bit wordy, but for me it still flew by pretty fast. Most of the edits I'd propose so far would just be making things a bit more concise, cramming more description into fewer words, etc. Nothing structural.
 
Fuck no. I work for a living, dude, and I'm currently working a very physically tiring job. I'm willing to spend a few minutes typing up a few paragraphs about something I feel passionate about in support of a friend, but there's a pretty stark difference between doing that and spending a dozen hours or so recrafting a narrative without a paycheque at the end for a webseries I don't particularly appreciate.

Beyond that, you've misinterpreted what I was recommending anyway. While I'd certainly advise Wildbow to cut down on the word cruft, that alone wouldn't solve the problem. I was recommending that the narrative itself be restructured to remove the necessity of the plodding introductory segments, which would allow the work to not read like it was being written by Robert Jordan, minus the fascination with clothing styles.

That's fair, and I understand what you're saying - I apologize if I misunderstood/offended you in any way. As for your suggestion, that is actually constructive, and if I'd found it written that way in your first post, I wouldn't have felt the need to answer to it. Sorry if I was a bother - I didn't intend to be, I just felt like some understanding of the narrative's goal was missing (even if I now know it wasn't), and I just wanted to point it out, that's all.
 
That's fair, and I understand what you're saying - I apologize if I misunderstood/offended you in any way. As for your suggestion, that is actually constructive, and if I'd found it written that way in your first post, I wouldn't have felt the need to answer to it. Sorry if I was a bother - I didn't intend to be, I just felt like some understanding of the narrative's goal was missing (even if I now know it wasn't), and I just wanted to point it out, that's all.
No worries. I could have been clearer in my initial post, so the fault lies on me there.
 
I don't understand why she even has a notebook that could be destroyed. Why doesn't she have a hidden text file on her laptop at home? Is Worm set in the 90s?
 
Indeed. I don't think Worm is perfect; many of us here don't. But some of the other accusations (that taylor is a rapist or is morally perfect) seem far fetched. Taylor is a damaged individual and those who admire her also admit that she's terrifying as shit.
 
Some idiot on tvtropes

Here's the review

We Don't Need Another Garth Ennis
Ok picture this scenario:


It's a story about a team of Anti-heroes who do what they will with whatever morally-ambiguous means necessary to get the job done at stopping crime, while at the same time complain that the Superheroes who do exist suck at their job and that what they do is actually the better way, especially sense the story is written so that they're always right.


Now from that assessment, am I talking about The Authority, The Boys, or Worm? Because they're really all have the same premise. Which makes this web series already contrived from the start. Yet it only gets worse from there. In fact, I would wager even Garth would think this story goes too far.


This series is beyond dark. Not just dark in it's setting or it's characters or even in their morality. It's in the utter doom and gloom that seems to start with bullying incidents towards Taylor, all the way to what amounts to bullying that she does as a supervillain. Put simply, the big problem with the story I have is that, I honestly do not care what happens to these people. The trope Darkness Induced Audience Apathy was made for this series. None of the characters come off as sympathetic or even likable in the end as they all carry shades of evil or jerkass. They do all sorts of despicable actions from mutilation, torture and even Rape. All of which they consider justified. If the characters come off as utter assholes, then why should I care what happens to them? Not to mention that how the story just keeps on ramping up the sheer amount of deaths in order to keep up with its Loads and Loads of Characters it's not so much a harsh crapsack world but more like a contest seeing if you can guess who'll be killed next.


What's just as worse is the style of writing the author has chosen, It can best be described as first person/stream of consciousness. Events and actions go by so fast, I have no clue what I just read and then the story will just carry on like I had any clue about what was just said. The story carries on, and I just lose interest because it prefers to practically say how excellent it is without worrying if the audience thinks it really is.


I seriously don't recommend this series. Avoid at all costs if you can.
 
Some idiot on tvtropes

Here's the review

We Don't Need Another Garth Ennis
Ok picture this scenario:


It's a story about a team of Anti-heroes who do what they will with whatever morally-ambiguous means necessary to get the job done at stopping crime, while at the same time complain that the Superheroes who do exist suck at their job and that what they do is actually the better way, especially sense the story is written so that they're always right.


Now from that assessment, am I talking about The Authority, The Boys, or Worm? Because they're really all have the same premise. Which makes this web series already contrived from the start. Yet it only gets worse from there. In fact, I would wager even Garth would think this story goes too far.


This series is beyond dark. Not just dark in it's setting or it's characters or even in their morality. It's in the utter doom and gloom that seems to start with bullying incidents towards Taylor, all the way to what amounts to bullying that she does as a supervillain. Put simply, the big problem with the story I have is that, I honestly do not care what happens to these people. The trope Darkness Induced Audience Apathy was made for this series. None of the characters come off as sympathetic or even likable in the end as they all carry shades of evil or jerkass. They do all sorts of despicable actions from mutilation, torture and even Rape. All of which they consider justified. If the characters come off as utter assholes, then why should I care what happens to them? Not to mention that how the story just keeps on ramping up the sheer amount of deaths in order to keep up with its Loads and Loads of Characters it's not so much a harsh crapsack world but more like a contest seeing if you can guess who'll be killed next.


What's just as worse is the style of writing the author has chosen, It can best be described as first person/stream of consciousness. Events and actions go by so fast, I have no clue what I just read and then the story will just carry on like I had any clue about what was just said. The story carries on, and I just lose interest because it prefers to practically say how excellent it is without worrying if the audience thinks it really is.


I seriously don't recommend this series. Avoid at all costs if you can.

Eh, I would never have thought of Worm from that description - it stops having anything to do with the story after "anti-heroes".

You're most surely not supposed to consider certain acts justified as you read the story, you're supposed to pity the characters who get put into situations when they have no good choice to make by forces beyond their control, and hope they manage to get free from those forces to actually do the right thing, instead of the wrong thing they're forced into. And in the end, that's exactly what happens - those forces are removed, and people can finally do what's right, which is why the story ends happily.

Worm is not about anti-heroes imposing their kind of justice at all, it's about villians, how villains are people too, and how in a climate where villains can be (but not always are) good people in bad circumstances and heroes can be (but not always are) bad people who just had a lucky draw, sometimes a villain can be more effective of an hero at helping people out. And in the end, the one person who can truly save the world is the one who has seen both sides of the divide, and can find the humanity in even the most inhuman villain, only to turn that very same humanity against them, by knowing the weaknesses that being a human carries all too well.

Self-sacrifice is a strong theme of the work, too - you can only get what you want if you're willing to pay the price, those who try to take shortcuts all end up failing in one way or another. Whereas any time somebody make a huge sacrifice - even one imposed on them by others - they always end up for the better.

I'm also not sure where people are seeing this "race for people to get killed" - in fact, one of the main complaints I've heard spoken about Worm, one I can see a good deal of truth into, is that after about Arc 8 it becomes impossible to feel worry for the main characters because they never dies. As in, the low number of deaths is considered a weakness by many, and while I personally think that's exaggerate, I actually can see where people are coming from when they make that remark - not so with the comment on people dying. If anything, the amount of things people in the wormverse survive is one of the elements that strains the suspension of disbelief the most.

The only passages I would consider "grim" are the ones where the Slaughterhouse Nine show up... and honestly, with the S9 being horror show monsters, I would say that's kinda their whole point.

I would not reccomend Worm to people who can be triggered by descriptions of bullying or torture, to ones who dislike villain protagonists and moral ambiguity, and warn people who like action that this is not thoughtless action narrative but rather a more complex kind, so it's not for light reading, it requires consideration and to think about the material as you read. I'd also specify that it's a six books long saga with detailed internal monologues, so one who dislike long and detailed description of people's state of minds, or side-chracters having whole chapters of backstory dedicated to themselves (these are things I love, by the way), then they're unlikely to enjoy the story.

To everybody else, I do would reccomend it, particolarly on the strenght of the worldbuilding which is nothing short of amazing, with the caveat that, if you don't like it afer the end of arc 8, then you can safely give it up.

I do think all of this is nearly off topic though, isn't it? I mean, we've moved from discussing the OP read of Worm to discussing Worm itself. Does that still count as being on topic, or is it a derail?
 
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You're most surely not supposed to consider certain acts justified as you read the story, you're supposed to pity the characters who get put into situations when they have no good choice to make by forces beyond their control, and hope they manage to get free from those forces to actually do the right thing, instead of the wrong thing they're forced into. And in the end, that's exactly what happens - those forces are removed, and people can finally do what's right, which is why the story ends happily.

Worm is not about anti-heroes imposing their kind of justice at all, it's about villians, how villains are people too, and how in a climate where villains can be (but not always are) good people in bad circumstances and heroes can be (but not always are) bad people who just had a lucky draw, sometimes a villain can be more effective of an hero at helping people out. And in the end, the one person who can truly save the world is the one who has seen both sides of the divide, and can find the humanity in even the most inhuman villain, only to turn that very same humanity against them, by knowing the weaknesses that being a human carries all too well.
Man, I want to read whatever story you read, because that's way better than Worm. The Worm I read had Taylor justifying killing an innocent toddler to herself and the toddler's brother, even after she finds out the justification is utterly hollow. Not even the slightest hint of remorse or guilt. The Worm I read had literal Nazi gangsters because Wildbow cannot into realistic fascism. The Worm I read was supposedly a deconstruction of superheroes, yet presented the ur-fascist themes pandemic to superhero works completely po-faced.

What story did you read?
 
And there's also that all asian gang.

Which to put it shortly and bluntly, really, really unlikely.
 
Man, I want to read whatever story you read, because that's way better than Worm. The Worm I read had Taylor justifying killing an innocent toddler to herself and the toddler's brother, even after she finds out the justification is utterly hollow. Not even the slightest hint of remorse or guilt. The Worm I read had literal Nazi gangsters because Wildbow cannot into realistic fascism. The Worm I read was supposedly a deconstruction of superheroes, yet presented the ur-fascist themes pandemic to superhero works completely po-faced.

What story did you read?
Uh the one that Wildbow wrote. Taylor does feel guilt for killing Aster; however given that grey boy was in the room one could argue with a straight face that she was saving life. Also there are plenty of white supremacist gangs; the empire 88 just happen to be parahumans at the same time.

Also Taylor is forced to admit that the PRT does have a legitimate function and more importantly, that the arrogant assholes at cauldron playing god with no accountability is the main reason the world is such a shithole.

Taylor is also shown to be in the wrong many times.
 
Egleris is a fool for expecting me to put any time, reasoning, or thought into jokes like "The three bullies, Emma and Sophia attacked Taylor."
When those jokes involve actively misrepresenting the plot than he's being reasonable. Also I noticed that you rather cowardly ducked the points he raised earlier when he dissected your interpretation of chapter 1, about how there really has been bullying that nasty and how Taylor is frequently meant to be in the wrong.
 
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