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The one issue I have to point out with this is the work he was doing was VERY delicate so hiring mercs for it seems unlikely he would want to keep it in house as much as possible to prevent leaks.Boristus said:Carrying over a discussion from the previous thread, I'm doubtful that the bodies left behind will (immediately) lead back to Romalia. If I were Julio, I would have hired mercenaries as my retinue, so that their association could not be traced back to the Pope if captured or killed.
1) We saw very clearly that he's not that smart.Boristus said:Carrying over a discussion from the previous thread, I'm doubtful that the bodies left behind will (immediately) lead back to Romalia. If I were Julio, I would have hired mercenaries as my retinue, so that their association could not be traced back to the Pope if captured or killed.
to follow this up so long as they dont have clear symbols of the church like wearing a known robe of theirs its just another face.divad said:Also, he clearly calls them Father this and Father that. The men with Julio are priests. That doesn't mean that they are going to identify them though.
The issue with THAT is 3 fold.Nicholai said:To be fair, revanninja, in olden times people learned faces and names much better than we do today. It was rather important and became a trained skill for them. It is entirely possible that the men Julio had with him can be identified by face by someone. (There are only so many ace mages running around Halkegenia, after all.) There's also the gear they were carrying or using that can be used to identify them.
The problem that the Church is going to have is that the men are dead. If someone asks what they were up to, the Church has no real answer. (As of right now the Church, en masse, doesn't know what Julio was up to.) If the men were taken alive, questions could be asked.
And, finally, Tristain can simply demand that the Church prove that the dead men are not known Church supporters / mages / priests. Something along the lines of "we think this is Sven, the Paper Cut. You say he is not. If he is not, then where is Sven, the Paper Cut, now?" (Yes, I know, silly name.)
Money dear boy Money, if they were mercs they would have been paid in some form or another and I am pretty sure Halkegenia doesn't have a universal money system that most RPGs have (correct me if I am wrong) so if they had a certain type of currency that say Romalia used then they could trace it back to them. Or at the very least they may have been Romaila Mercs and would start the search there.revanninja said:to follow this up so long as they dont have clear symbols of the church like wearing a known robe of theirs its just another face.
They dont have instant e-mails or database search so they cant just put them in and get their names like we can today.
Some facts are being overlooked. For one thing, Tristain and the Fae lords are going to figure out it was Julio and co. simply by the fact that Louise cooperated with them willingly, and by the fact that they took her to bind the World Tree. They just told the Church their suspicions regarding her summoning Alfheim, and all of a sudden a mystery group whisks her away for the purpose of completing the familiar summoning ritual? It's not complicated.revanninja said:The issue with THAT is 3 fold.
1. You need to have the people that know the man or know of him and if you have ever played the telephone game you would know how hard getting a good description from rumor is going to be.
2. You need to ID something about him tristain maybe small but it still has a large amount of space so you need to figure out something to narrow the search. For example Karin saw some of them use magic but not all because Half were dead before she even got there so if their only surviving bodies are from those IDing even their mage levels or even if they were mages is going to be hard.
3. You also assume they are known which is not always the case for all we know they maybe Powerful Church agents but they have WORKED to keep their names down so the list of possibles may not even include them.
What you are saying does have merit but you are forgetting several factors such as location, rumor, known vs not known and a couple others.
Also speaking as someone who has had to do some work with IDing people off loose descriptions its not easy even when you KNOW the person is there at that time period.
uhmm nice idea not very good in practice.Tython82 said:Money dear boy Money, if they were mercs they would have been paid in some form or another and I am pretty sure Halkegenia doesn't have a universal money system that most RPGs have (correct me if I am wrong) so if they had a certain type of currency that say Romalia used then they could trace it back to them. Or at the very least they may have been Romaila Mercs and would start the search there.
I forgot about them moving around and it does stand to reason he wouldnt use different men then what he had.End Bringer said:Some facts are being overlooked. For one thing, Tristain and the Fae lords are going to figure out it was Julio and co. simply by the fact that Louise cooperated with them willingly, and by the fact that they took her to bind the World Tree. They just told the Church their suspicions regarding her summoning Alfheim, and all of a sudden a mystery group whisks her away for the purpose of completing the familiar summoning ritual? It's not complicated.
And given Julio and co. spent a great deal of time traveling around to investigate the Fae, all Tristain has to do is take a sketch of the recovered bodies to any known places the Church visited. Someone will most certainly recognize one of them (I doubt Julio was the only one going around asking questions), and then Tristain has their confirmation. It wouldn't take Argo more than a day, and most of the time would be spent on flying around.
Julio simply blew it. His whole operation was hinged on Louise cooperating and no one finding them in time. With Karin and Yui surviving their confrontation, Romalia will be in a difficult situation. It's not going to be impossible for Vittorio to fix this mess (acting without any official orders was probably Julio's one saving grace), but it's going to mean making concessions he wouldn't have had to do without Tristain giving more. And that still doesn't include how to get Louise to cooperate in the long run.
Problem is they can't justify that without Kirche revealing that Louise is a void mage. And Kirche lying about that if asked by her Emperor would certainly be treason.Tython82 said:It's not really betrayal though seeing as all she wants to do is get a search party into Germania in order to find Louise and rescue her from the kidnappers/herself and nothing else all they may need to do is provide a Germanian aide in order to ensure they stay on track. Also given that Kirche may want to atone for her mistake that led to Louise's situation she may want to help out.
The only deal Tristian could likely offer at this point would be Louise the Void Mage's hand in marriage to the Emperor.GeshronTyler said:Yeah, I fail to see why this would constitute betrayal to Germania. Well, yes, Vaermina would of course immediately go with the Every Germananian is a Stone Cold Absolute Patriot (nevermind that the "Game of Thrones" is Germanias internal Nobel National Sport). It's not like a deal could be struck, that the Emperor might be given some insight into Louise's situation. Or that the Emperor (or Noble House Factions) might not be very pleased at being used as a "land of transit" for Julio, Louise and Co., without being asked or getting something for it. Or that the Zerbsts, who have been Emperor before, might decide that leaning towards Tristain (and the Fae) might be advantageous next round of "Election of the Emperor". Never know when a new "game" gets called.
The only one you can think of, you mean.Vaermina said:Problem is they can't justify that without Kirche revealing that Louise is a void mage. And Kirche lying about that if asked by her Emperor would certainly be treason.
The only deal Tristian could likely offer at this point would be Louise the Void Mage's hand in marriage to the Emperor.
Umm pretty sure all they need to say is that the daughter(even though she is the thrid one) of an important Tristan noble family was kidnapped and may have been taken into Germania would be all the excuse that would be needed after all it wasn't like they were pressured to answer any other questions after saying they were chasing criminals that were hoping to use Germania as a safe haven from Tristan justice. So why would they need to reveal that she is a void mage?Vaermina said:Problem is they can't justify that without Kirche revealing that Louise is a void mage. And Kirche lying about that if asked by her Emperor would certainly be treason.
The only deal Tristian could likely offer at this point would be Louise the Void Mage's hand in marriage to the Emperor.
Not really, Germania's Emperor wants line legitimacy more then anything else. Which means that is what he would use as leverage in exchange for offering Tristian his countries help.GeshronTyler said:
you are using values that no longer have any truth to them.Vaermina said:Not really, Germania's Emperor wants line legitimacy more then anything else. Which means that is what he would use as leverage in exchange for offering Tristian his countries help.
This is doubly so since because Germania is the Richest nation and Tristian the poorest it is the only thing they have to offer them.
Also wasn't Tristan about to have a massive high grade steel production facility set up on the Valliere lands sometime in the future thanks to Fae engineering? Pretty sure that would help with the money problems that Tristan has and that if a deal would be struck it would be economical not marital.Vaermina said:Not really, Germania's Emperor wants line legitimacy more then anything else. Which means that is what he would use as leverage in exchange for offering Tristian his countries help.
This is doubly so since because Germania is the Richest nation and Tristian the poorest it is the only thing they have to offer them.
You answered your own question.Tython82 said:Umm pretty sure all they need to say is that the daughter(even though she is the thrid one) of an important Tristan noble family was kidnapped and may have been taken into Germania would be all the excuse that would be needed after all it wasn't like they were pressured to answer any other questions after saying they were chasing criminals that were hoping to use Germania as a safe haven from Tristan justice. So why would they need to reveal that she is a void mage? Actually there has been no in story confirmation other than Julio that she is a void mage, neither Tristan or the Fae have that info yet.
And the Fae currently have no proven value outside of being skilled fighters.revanninja said:you are using values that no longer have any truth to them.
Germania is rich yes but Tristain for example has the fae also demanding marriage just so rescuers can search is silly in the extreme and more then likely going to back fire horribly.
.[/quote]Vaermina said:And the Fae currently have no proven value outside of being skilled fighters.
Also it's not demanding marriage so rescuers can search, it's demanding marriage to allow Tristian military forces into Germania.
Vaer again no one outside of Julio knows she is a void mage so again that wouldn't come up at all.Vaermina said:You answered your own question.
Why would a third daughter of a noble family be important enough for the Germania government to allow an enemy country's troops into their lands to search for her?
Realistically the answer to that is going to be "Sorry but we can't allow it, however give us a description of the girl and we will put out a notice to our cities offering a reward for the girls safe return.". The only way they wouldn't get that answer even with Kirche pushing is if they prove that Louise is a lot more valuable then just a third daughter.
Also it requires that Kirche not tell anybody about Louise being a void mage.
And the Fae currently have no proven value outside of being skilled fighters.
Also it's not demanding marriage so rescuers can search, it's demanding marriage to allow Tristian military forces into Germania.
None of which has any value until it produces results and those results become public knowledge. Which is years if not decades away from happeningrevanninja said:Construction going on TRIST inventions money granted from them Items they harvest Mythril for example yeah they have NO value
Louise as the third daughter is a low placed noble, her only value to the family would be who she could be married off to.And its the SAME thing its an unreasonable request you are denying tristain the right to search a kidnapper of a high placed noble basically sending a message of being a harbor for such things.
Trust me Germania DOES NOT want that kind of reputation.
That's reality for you, countries don't let enemy forces into their borders unless that country either massively outguns them or is willing to offer them something they badly want.You are trying to say they would only allow a small amount of forces in with a clear goal if there was a marriage it doesnt make any sense Vaer.
The issue does not create that kind of leverage. You are over stating it by LEAGUES.