"Great Man Theory": Truly Great or Merely Mediocre?

That's, like, your opinion. :V

One a lot of historians over the ages have disagreed with.
Nikkolas probably should have posted that to argue for Great Man theory instead of his actual arguments.
I wasn't aware that Margaret Thatcher had an account on SV. :V
That is a ridiculous accusation. On several occasions this thread has made me remember that we live in a society. Doesn't it make you think?
 
Overall my impression is that the butterfly effect is probably really strong, and historic tendencies for civilization to arbitrarily grant absolute power to single individuals probably stirs the pot even harder. But that doesn't make them important.
 
Overall my impression is that the butterfly effect is probably really strong, and historic tendencies for civilization to arbitrarily grant absolute power to single individuals probably stirs the pot even harder. But that doesn't make them important.

There is no historian on Earth who would say leaders like Napoleon wasn't important.


The other day, when assessing how different the Nazis were compared to other murderous regimes, somebody posted this:
There was a good post on r/AskHistorians about why Generalplan Ost isn't memorialised like the Holocaust, which touches on this kind of thing: link here

A key passage:
The fact that the Nazi government exerted diplomatic pressure on the Imperial Japanese government to hand over the 18.000 Jews in Shanghai demonstrates that for the Nazis even a comparatively small number of Jews thousands of miles away from any of their territory represented such a danger to them in their minds that they had to die.

Many genocides in history were absolutely devastating to the ethnic population they targeted; how many genocides can you name where diplomatic pressure was put on an ally to round up that ethnic group on the other side of the world?

This is what shapes the world, the ideas and ideologies of those with power. The material needs of millions of faceless Germans had nothing to do with this. It was done by a small group with a vision of the world that demanded they kill a few thousand people continents away.

Ideas, both good and bad, promoted by those with the power to enact those ideas, is what shapes our history.
 
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This is what shapes the world, the ideas and ideologies of those with power. The material needs of millions of faceless Germans had nothing to do with this. It was done by a small group with a vision of the world that demanded they kill a few thousand people continents away.

Little lost how this connects to anything. Like yeah, but Germany lost WW1 in part because of the blockade starving it into dejection, and WW2 was absolutely bound up in logistical and industrial numbers. Especially after the industrial revolution economics is essential to understanding the world.
 
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This is what shapes the world, the ideas and ideologies of those with power. The material needs of millions of faceless Germans had nothing to do with this. It was done by a small group with a vision of the world that demanded they kill a few thousand people continents away.
That's utter nonsense. If those millions of Germans had different material needs, the Nazis would never have risen to power. If the Nazis had different material conditions, they might have stood a chance of winning the second world war. Ideology won't stop a bullet and "Great Men" can't change basic logistical realities.
 
Little lost how this connects to anything. Like yeah, but Germany lost WW1 in part because of the blockade starving it into dejection, and WW2 was absolutely bound up in logistical and industrial numbers. Especially after the industrial revolution economics is essential to understanding the world.

Because you can't explain these actions in terms of material cost benefits. They only make sense in Nazi ideology.

If we see everything in terms of people acting only for material interests, we should all be Libertarians and get rid of anti-discrimination laws because rational self-interested and materially-minded businesspeople will not cut into their profits by having inefficient hiring practices. Only we all know that's not true because their ideology matters more than their material gains. I've literally heard this from racists and Alt Right types. Forcing women back into the home and expelling migrants can hurt the economy but so what? It's for the greater good of the White Ethnostate. The Far Right detests materialistic thinking.

People will and do act more for their beliefs than their needs.
 
Because you can't explain these actions in terms of material cost benefits. They only make sense in Nazi ideology.

If we see everything in terms of people acting only for material interests, we should all be Libertarians and get rid of anti-discrimination laws because rational self-interested and materially-minded businesspeople will not cut into their profits by having inefficient hiring practices. Only we all know that's not true because their ideology matters more than their material gains. I've literally heard this from racists and Alt Right types. Forcing women back into the home and expelling migrants can hurt the economy but so what? It's for the greater good of the White Ethnostate. The Far Right detests materialistic thinking.

People will and do act more for their beliefs than their needs.
The Nazis came to power promising (and in the short term providing) material wealth. They were forced to engage in ill advised wars of conquest because they couldn't maintain economic growth. They were defeated by a better organized and more resource rich coalition. You can't explain the Second World War without materialist analysis.
 
Because you can't explain these actions in terms of material cost benefits. They only make sense in Nazi ideology.

If we see everything in terms of people acting only for material interests, we should all be Libertarians and get rid of anti-discrimination laws because rational self-interested and materially-minded businesspeople will not cut into their profits by having inefficient hiring practices. Only we all know that's not true because their ideology matters more than their material gains. I've literally heard this from racists and Alt Right types. Forcing women back into the home and expelling migrants can hurt the economy but so what? It's for the greater good of the White Ethnostate. The Far Right detests materialistic thinking.

People will and do act more for their beliefs than their needs.

Okay, but why does this disprove material explanations of circumstances? Economics doesn't care about your feelings. How you choose to react to economics can have absolutely no root in materialism, but that will not erase the material circumstances underlying it. You're confusing the idea that people have a materialistic view of everything, which is untrue, with the fact that material circumstances matter.

Even the Shoah was impossible without the Nazi industrial base that they had. It was an industrial efficient operation conducted by a modern bureaucracy. Even where it was conducted by means of mass shooting rather than gas, every piece of ammunition was counted and every Jew carefully picked out and collected. Everything about the holocaust was an industrial genocide.

Having a materialist conception of history doesn't mean you think all humans think in economic terms. But their lives are underlaid by their economic circumstances and they cannot escape them.
 
How much does @Nikkolas and everybody else actually disagree on here? "The twentieth century would have been very different if Adolf Hitler never existed" and "many things about WWII can best be explained in materialist terms" can both be true. I think they probably are both true.

Two more general points:

1) I get the feeling that in this discussion "Great Man theory" is being used to name two different things. One of these things is the idea that sometimes the ideas, choices, and actions of an individual have a profound effect on history. The other is the idea that the mass of humanity receives most progress and culture as gifts from a handful of geniuses, and without that handful of special people we'd all still be living in huts and hunting dinner with obsidian-tipped spears and also we'd eat raw meat and communicate by grunts cause fire and language were invented by Ug and Thogg on January 4, 3,264,072 BCE and July 12, 52,166 BCE, respectively. I think the "geniuses invented everything and did everything important" version of Great Man theory is the one people usually have a problem with, and the one people are usually thinking of when they say "Great Man theory" with a sneer. It's obviously the version that's easier to argue against, if nothing else because it makes a much more specific claim about how society works. It's also the version that's obvious catnip to defenders of hierarchy.

2) I think at this point in history the strongest rival of materialist history isn't Great Man theory, it's idealism, in the sense of the idea that the shaper and driver of history is the ideas in people's heads. If asked why the United States has gotten more socially liberal since 1800 a materialist would start talking about class interests and the social implications of technological changes and things like that. I think if you asked a lot of people that question and looked at the answers that didn't look like that, what you'd most often see isn't a narrative where Great Men like Washington and Lincoln get credited with everything, it's one where the process is talked about mostly in terms of liberal ideas winning contests against conservative ideas. If you asked a materialist historian to explain tensions between the West and the Islamic world they'd started talking about things like the grand sweep of twentieth century geopolitics and the implications of the Middle East having lots of oil, and I think the most common rival narrative to that is probably the right-wing "clash of civilizations" narrative where everything is supposedly explained by the supposed inherent illiberalism and anti-modernity and barbarism of Islam or Middle Eastern culture. If you asked a materialist historian why certain parts of the USA seem to "vote against their economic interests" they'd start talking about class interests and contingent alignments of certain political coalitions and so on, and I think the most common rival narrative to that (at least in liberal areas) is the one that says that those areas just have a "backwards culture." I think fundamentally this is a blind men feeling an elephant situation: Great Man theory is feeling the elephant's ear and saying it's a fan while idealism is feeling the elephant's trunk and saying it's a snake and overly reductive materialist history is feeling the elephant's leg and saying it's a tree.
 
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The men part is a thing, though.
The patriarchal leanings of society throughout history mean that any "great women" will typically be unknown. Generally such women will be using men as a front for practical reasons (if some great conqueror three thousand years ago was just following his wife's advice, we are unlikely to ever know it), or the credit for their achievements will simply be stolen or erased.

1) I get the feeling that in this discussion "Great Man theory" is being used to name two different things. One of these things is the idea that sometimes the ideas, choices, and actions of an individual have a profound effect on history. The other is the idea that the mass of humanity receives most progress and culture as gifts from a handful of geniuses, and without that handful of special people we'd all still be living in huts and hunting dinner with obsidian-tipped spears and also we'd eat raw meat and communicate by grunts cause fire and language were invented by Ug and Thogg on January 4, 3,264,072 BCE and July 12, 52,166 BCE, respectively. I think the "geniuses invented everything and did everything important" version of Great Man theory is the one people usually have a problem with, and the one people are usually thinking of when they say "Great Man theory" with a sneer. It's obviously the version that's easier to argue against, if nothing else because it makes a much more specific claim about how society works. It's also the version that's obvious catnip to defenders of hierarchy.
There's a third scenario that I think is true; there's a small number of people who for one reason or another are at the far end of the term in terms of what they are willing and/or able to do and end up in a position to do "great things" and have a disproportionate impact on history. It's not just them being in the right place, it's an unusual person being in the right place; without the circumstances he was in Hitler would have never been able to do the damage he did, but a less rabid person wouldn't have done it in the first place.

Another aspect of this that doesn't seem to have come up is that "great" men or women should be kept out of any position where they are doing something that depends on them long term. The problem with a genuinely irreplaceable person is that sooner or later you will need to replace them. The key bit of evidence that Alexander really was a "great man" isn't his conquests; it's that his empire fell apart after he died. "Great Men" make bad long term leaders because the systems they create around themselves tend to fall apart when they leave or die, because normal people can't keep them running. As I once heard it said in a business context, "You don't actually want the 'A Team,', you want the 'B Team' because you can always get another B Team when you need it".

A "Great Man" like Marx or Einstein will actually do better long term since their work is not dependent upon them. When Einstein died the Theory of Relativity didn't suddenly collapse, because it didn't require him to prop it up; unlike what happened to Alexander's empire. A "great" person in such a field in more likely to have a long lasting legacy beyond the aftermath of collapse. But by the same token they are harder to identify as such, because that collapse is the best way to identify a genuine "Great Man".
 
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I think we are confusing the passage of time for "Great men"
How different would the world be if X.

Well, X lived 2000 years ago, that probably has more to do with it than anything else.
Like purely due to the difference in people being born, once you go back far enough anyone removed from history would butterfly into huge changes.

Sure for some people the effects are more obvious, but largely the great man theory relies upon only 1 piece of evidence, "It feels true"

It feels true that removing Hitler would change history, now he hardly acted a lone and was actually less competent than many of his subordinates and then went crazy. One his subordinates, would of like wise had different advantages and disadvantages and while things would have been different, it was more that ww2 was inevitable because of how ww1 ended, than it was about adolf personally, if you want to change ww2, you change the commanders and politicians at the end of ww1 and so on, it would always be more effective to go backwards and change the circumstances
 
I think it is true, that certain people in history made huge changes to how the history would follow.
But over time this is true of everyone simply due to the butterfly effect.
And the people famous in history are often famous more out of random chance, being the right person in the right place at the right time, than any inherent greatness in them.
 

As the demotivational poster summarizes, there is a difference being important and being indispensable. There is no question that whoever gets elected president is given tremendous power and influence to do things. There is also no question that if they died or lost the election, another person would be right there to take their place as president. While it is true that a different president, even if they made mostly similar choices, would still lead to significantly different outcomes, which would butterfly into increasingly different world history, that still doesn't indicate they're important. Whichever incompetent soldier dropped Special Order 191 no doubt had an effect that snowballed throughout history, and that is merely a case where it was obvious; you also get things like "did Star Trek Voyager result in Obama being elected?" which is plausible though less certain, and which itself involves all sorts of minor variables.

People like Napoleon and Genghis Khan were neither the first nor last person to rise to power, conquer vast swaths of land, then eventually die and have their empire break up, but not before having an indelible impact on the populace. They were a product of the institutions of the time, which produced many such conquerors. If they didn't and some other conqueror took their place, history might be radically different, but the exact effects would be highly variable. The industrial revolution might happen earlier or it might happen later. Leaders may be markers in history, but they aren't markers of progress.

It is true that history would be radically different without Napoleon. It would also be radically different without anonymous soldier #194785 who dropped Special Order 191 too. The theory is called Great Man Theory, not Important Man Theory, but there is little to indicate that those men were great rather than merely important, and even then a lot of fairly important people were not and will never be famous. And if you want to argue that humanity needs idols for their ideology, that doesn't make those important men great... it makes them figureheads. Just look at the GOP worshipping saint Reagan while quietly ignoring what his actual political positions were... which is a subtle hint that what he said or did was not actually important, the GOP just needed a president with an (R) next to their name who won big and left office still popular.
 
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As the demotivational poster summarizes, there is a difference being important and being indispensable. There is no question that whoever gets elected president is given tremendous power and influence to do things. There is also no question that if they died or lost the election, another person would be right there to take their place as president. While it is true that a different president, even if they made mostly similar choices, would still lead to significantly different outcomes, which would butterfly into increasingly different world history, that still doesn't indicate they're important. Whichever incompetent soldier dropped Special Order 191 no doubt had an effect that snowballed throughout history, and that is merely a case where it was obvious; you also get things like "did Star Trek Voyager result in Obama being elected?" which is plausible though less certain, and which itself involves all sorts of minor variables.

People like Napoleon and Genghis Khan were neither the first nor last person to rise to power, conquer vast swaths of land, then eventually die and have their empire break up, but not before having an indelible impact on the populace. They were a product of the institutions of the time, which produced many such conquerors. If they didn't and some other conqueror took their place, history might be radically different, but the exact effects would be highly variable. The industrial revolution might happen earlier or it might happen later. Leaders may be markers in history, but they aren't markers of progress.

It is true that history would be radically different without Napoleon. It would also be radically different without anonymous soldier #194785 who dropped Special Order 191 too. The theory is called Great Man Theory, not Important Man Theory, but there is little to indicate that those men were great rather than merely important, and even then a lot of fairly important people were not and will never be famous. And if you want to argue that humanity needs idols for their ideology, that doesn't make those important men great... it makes them figureheads. Just look at the GOP worshipping saint Reagan while quietly ignoring what his actual political positions were... which is a subtle hint that what he said or did was not actually important, the GOP just needed a president with an (R) next to their name who won big and left office still popular.

How are you defining "important" here? Because you seem to be all over the place with it.
 
How are you defining "important" here? Because you seem to be all over the place with it.
The distinction is one of responsibility. Great Man Theory claims great men are responsible for setting the course of history. Important Man Theory™ would say that while some might set the course, others row the oars, build the boats, compile the charts, and hand out the privateer's charter.

This reminds me of discussion about how capitalists applaud themselves as job creators, responsible for the success of the economy, when in practice it can be shown that a monkey throwing darts is as successful as any investor, but capital naturally aggregates with some people inevitably ending up on top as a consequence.

Important people would very much like us to believe in Great Man Theory, because the alternative is admitting that they aren't important, only their positions. Positions which itself wield as much power as they do in part because of the extent to which society buys into GMT and gives massive unilateral powers to the few.
 
Uh... no?

You're confusing reality with human understanding. From the moment Einstein wrote down his theory, it was either right or wrong as a fact of nature; and apparently he was right, or very close to it. The other competing theories were not.

The fact that it took us decades to confirm that he was right is irrelevant; Einstein did instantly and immediately (or, well, over the course of seven years, but on the scales we're talking about that might as well be 'instant', that's the timescale of an average PhD degree) come up with the right answer.

And actually yeah, it sort of is him being "some galaxy brain who just knows." He took the same information everyone else had and jumped immediately to the incredibly unintuitive, complete-contradiction-to-everyday-life right answer. Arguing that everyone else who tried and failed was 'just as brilliant' is a little like saying that everyone who fails a test was 'just as good' as the ones who passed. -- Well, I won't actually deny that it's not impossible, tests are usually pretty badly designed at actually testing your ability at physics; but you have no evidence of that, the only evidence you do have says that there was a line drawn.

Like, I'm basically going to cite Kahneman here -- if all you know is that someone succeeded at a difficult task, the correct reaction, the only correct reaction, is to update your beliefs in favor of both "she's very good at her job" and "she got lucky" at the same time.
In all fairness, there is a LOT of work that is, one might say, "precursor to Einstein." We talk about Lorentz invariance and Lorentz transforms for a reason, because Lorentz did a good deal of the mathematical heavy lifting. General relativity is even more like this, appropriately so because it's a much more complicated theory that even Einstein had to work on for a good long while.

Einstein definitely made huge contributions that leapt things forward... but while he was a magnificent galaxy-brained world-historical genius, he was very far from the only one of the period, and any of a number of other people could have stepped into the gap left behind if he'd never made his most prominent discoveries.

Not really, no. Actually, basically all of modern physics begins with the word "Ansatz:", i.e. "we pulled an answer out of our arse made an educated guess, and here look it turns out it works!"

All you need to do is prove that it works, to show enough of how your theory works that people can understand it, make predictions, and test them. Being able to retrace the steps you followed to get there isn't nearly as important, and for good reason -- often people don't even know themselves where their ideas come from. Plus, like, a good chunk of the problems we face are literally not soluble by analytic/rigorous means; you have to try and look at the system and make good guesses, there just is no other way. (Some of these problems should be suffixed "no way that we know of"; but some of them shouldn't, are actually provably insoluble in standard functions.)
The thing is, this kind of brilliant masterwork solution typically is the result of someone who is very brilliant and also armed with the work of other geniuses putting things together in a way that even laymen can understand the importance of. It's a lot easier to explain what Einstein did with the work of, for example, Ricci and Levi-Civita, than it is to explain the work of Ricci and Levi-Civita.

The actual thought process isn't "I pulled an algorithm out of my butt and hey presto, it works." It's "I spent a very long time combing the literature for mathematical models I thought would accurately describe this situation, and hey presto, I finally found one that fits the situation!"

Another aspect of this that doesn't seem to have come up is that "great" men or women should be kept out of any position where they are doing something that depends on them long term. The problem with a genuinely irreplaceable person is that sooner or later you will need to replace them. The key bit of evidence that Alexander really was a "great man" isn't his conquests; it's that his empire fell apart after he died. "Great Men" make bad long term leaders because the systems they create around themselves tend to fall apart when they leave or die, because normal people can't keep them running. As I once heard it said in a business context, "You don't actually want the 'A Team,', you want the 'B Team' because you can always get another B Team when you need it".

A "Great Man" like Marx or Einstein will actually do better long term since their work is not dependent upon them. When Einstein died the Theory of Relativity didn't suddenly collapse, because it didn't require him to prop it up; unlike what happened to Alexander's empire. A "great" person in such a field in more likely to have a long lasting legacy beyond the aftermath of collapse. But by the same token they are harder to identify as such, because that collapse is the best way to identify a genuine "Great Man".
I think the pivotal difference is between... fuckit, I'm gonna borrow a concept from David Eddings.

Some people are doers of deeds, and some people are performers of tasks. A deed, once done, remains done, and its consequences do not go away. A task, once performed, has to be done over and over to maintain the desired consequences.

Having a Great Person do your deeds (liberate the country from the foreign invaders, for instance) usually works out pretty well.

Relying on the Great Person to perform tasks (governing the country after the liberation) does not work out so well.

The problem is that deeds and tasks are often related or symbiotic. Scientific data collection is a task; scientific explanations for unfamiliar phenomena are deeds. Winning a battle is a deed and if you win a battle hard enough under most conditions, you won't need to win another one... but governing a country in the aftermath of winning the battles is a task.

As you say (but in slightly different words), it's disastrous to rely on the Destined Hero to perform your tasks, because by definition, the task will outlast the Destined Hero's continued ability to fulfill his duties. Relying on the Destined Hero to do some deed that changes everything irreversibly is a different kettle of fish.

As an example, the US badly needed George Washington during the American Revolution, because he was just about the only person available with the charisma, political savvy, and basic-tier military competence required to hold the Continental Army in the field... and the only way to beat the British was to just hang on. The US badly needed George Washington during the writing of the Constitution, because his role as a reluctant leadership figure helped set durable precedents about how authority was going to work in the new republic. But after that? He stopped being indispensible, because governing the country was now a task, not a deed.
 
I think the pivotal difference is between... fuckit, I'm gonna borrow a concept from David Eddings.

Some people are doers of deeds, and some people are performers of tasks. A deed, once done, remains done, and its consequences do not go away. A task, once performed, has to be done over and over to maintain the desired consequences.
Hah! That scene stuck in my head, too. In fact it's exactly what I was thinking of, I just didn't think to give Eddings a mention.

Yes; I think that's a useful distinction to be made, and I've used it quite a bit in my thoughts ever since I ran across it in the Mallorean series. It's a pretty useful idea for what was basically a minor line about a group's backstory.
 
In all fairness, there is a LOT of work that is, one might say, "precursor to Einstein." We talk about Lorentz invariance and Lorentz transforms for a reason, because Lorentz did a good deal of the mathematical heavy lifting. General relativity is even more like this, appropriately so because it's a much more complicated theory that even Einstein had to work on for a good long while.

Einstein definitely made huge contributions that leapt things forward... but while he was a magnificent galaxy-brained world-historical genius, he was very far from the only one of the period, and any of a number of other people could have stepped into the gap left behind if he'd never made his most prominent discoveries.
Well, yes and no.

One of the things I always like to say is, you haven't proven something until you've proved it in math, but you haven't understood it until you've written it in words.

Einstein could not have said to have proven his theory, or even really "developed" his theory, until he'd worked through all the tensor calculus and finally come up with G = 8πT. And if he hadn't done that work, he wouldn't have contributed much to GR; being an ideas man is about as useful in physics as it is anywhere else. However, even so, I'm still willing to credit him with understanding his theory almost instantly, having seen how it must roughly work in conceptually/in the abstract -- and furthermore, I'm not at all sure that anyone else could have come to that understanding as quickly or as correctly as he did.

Again, in terms of raw mathematical intelligence people like Dirac and Heisenberg were probably straight up better than Einstein, but that didn't stop QM from being a horrific mess. (Not that Einstein was that much better... but then again, he really did have a point with "God does not play dice with the universe". But I'm not going to start another MWI fight over here :V)
 
Well, yes and no.

One of the things I always like to say is, you haven't proven something until you've proved it in math, but you haven't understood it until you've written it in words.

Einstein could not have said to have proven his theory, or even really "developed" his theory, until he'd worked through all the tensor calculus and finally come up with G = 8πT. And if he hadn't done that work, he wouldn't have contributed much to GR; being an ideas man is about as useful in physics as it is anywhere else. However, even so, I'm still willing to credit him with understanding his theory almost instantly, having seen how it must roughly work in conceptually/in the abstract -- and furthermore, I'm not at all sure that anyone else could have come to that understanding as quickly or as correctly as he did.
Einstein was wrestling with general relativity for ten years.

Again, in terms of raw mathematical intelligence people like Dirac and Heisenberg were probably straight up better than Einstein, but that didn't stop QM from being a horrific mess. (Not that Einstein was that much better... but then again, he really did have a point with "God does not play dice with the universe". But I'm not going to start another MWI fight over here :V)
Bluntly, having taken a few graduate courses in both, quantum mechanics is just plain messier than GR. Quantum mechanics involves almost arbitrarily complex interactions among subatomic particles; GR involves objects that occupy well defined position and density distributions, most of which can be approximated in structurally simple ways. GR involves no idea more counterintuitive than non-Euclidean geometry and builds things like causality into its underlying assumptions to help make more sense of things; quantum mechanics does the opposite and calls our deep philosophical perceptions into question and forces us to do that most disagreeable of things, shut up and calculate, if we want to get correct answers.

It's like blaming people who study fluid dynamics because their field lacks the clean-lined "atoms and void" simplicity and elegance of two-body orbital mechanics. It imposes an unreasonable expectation of elegance on a messy corner of reality.

Solving general relativity was a one-man job, IF that one man was Albert Einstein.

Solving quantum mechanics was very, very much not ever going to be a one-man job.
 
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