Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
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- Bottom of the barrel
Yeah, its a shame we didn't get any minority main characters in Star Wars.
Ghost in the Shell, Live Action Film
- Thread starter Shanejayell
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Yeah, its a shame we didn't get any minority main characters in Star Wars.
Rumor has it the studio's response to complaints about whitewashing the character was to quietly test CGI yellowface.
Yeah, its a shame we didn't get any minority main characters in Star Wars.
The funny thing is people would argue whether or not he really was a main character.
This argument in general is dumb and I can go either way on how to deal with SJ as Motoko. No point in saying "This is racist!" because of course it is! Hell it makes sense for this to be SJ since this is a obscure property and they picked a very well known white actress who could play the part. Its risk averse and a bit racist, but its not surprising in the least. Don't know why its an argument on whether or not its racist still. I'm more focused on how their going to execute this and hope Fate/Zero becomes a movie with Saber as a dude.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
I just hope this does well enough that Keanu Reeves gets to make that Cowboy Bebop movie he's been trying to get green lit for a decade.
Max Landis has his own take.
I am sort of bemused by this more than anything. I think he totally misdiagnoses people as "not getting it" when they get it and are precisely mad because they do get it.
I guess it's the perspective of someone who works in the movie industry and might have to explain a casting choice someday. I'm not personally very sympathetic to "be mad at the nebulous system over there" (I'm not really mad at all tbh, I never got as much into GitS as other stuff)but hey, I suppose it works.
I am sort of bemused by this more than anything. I think he totally misdiagnoses people as "not getting it" when they get it and are precisely mad because they do get it.
I guess it's the perspective of someone who works in the movie industry and might have to explain a casting choice someday. I'm not personally very sympathetic to "be mad at the nebulous system over there" (I'm not really mad at all tbh, I never got as much into GitS as other stuff)but hey, I suppose it works.
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TWPC920
Knight of the Fury
- Location
- The Moon
Truth is, while I'm pretty annoyed by them casting Scarlett Johansson as Motoko instead of an Asian or even Japanese actress, I feel like if they went the route of Edge of Tomorrow by re-adapting the entire story and set it in a Western country people would have less issues with it. Something among the lines of if you're going to whitewash, you might as well go all the way and not make any excuses and try to hide it. Or maybe not, since All You Need Is Kill is not quite as popular as Ghost in the Shell and maybe most people just didn't care enough about it to raise a fuss.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
Speaking of All You Need is Kill, there is now a sequel!
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I have no idea how they're going to pull that off, but hey, an obscure Japanese LN getting a movie sequel of all things is pretty impressive! Who knows, we might get more GitS stuff in the future. Although I don't think they'll replace SJ, unless they do. Who knows.
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I have no idea how they're going to pull that off, but hey, an obscure Japanese LN getting a movie sequel of all things is pretty impressive! Who knows, we might get more GitS stuff in the future. Although I don't think they'll replace SJ, unless they do. Who knows.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Well, replacing the actress playing Kusanagi would be very easy in Ghost in the Shell, at least.
Teocraso
A bear as strong as nine bears
- Location
- The City of Angels
What like using multiple actresses for multiple bodies?
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Sure, why not?
You think people would have been less mad about it being relocated into America than just having in in Japan with a white actress? Do we need a drug test over here? You're proposing a double whammy instead of a single one.
- Location
- United States of America
Think of it this way. One is localizing a story. That's fair, really. You change the setting of a story to make its rules make more sense to the country it's shown to. An American company adapts a Japanese story and moves it to America and uses American actors, that makes sense and, while not the cleanest idea, at least feels pretty justified and reasonable a decision. It's easier to make it American so we did.
Think with this is that it's a specifically Japanese character being played by a white actress. It's not "We put this story in America for Americans to relate", it's "It's still in Japan but pretend this white woman is also Japanese". That's the real weird feeling here, it's a character specified as a certain race but played by someone not that race. That's where things start to really feel...blackfacey. If they relocated the story and changed stuff it'd at least make sense but otherwise I just feels bizarre and kinda icky.
I don't think GitS is doomed because of this, but I do think it's pretty BS that this is still a thing that happens in Hollywood.
Do you not remember the outrage over what I believe was Akira getting a film... set in America? When you say "this is now in American by white people" you're erasing not just the race but the culture around the story. We've been here before, fans will get more pissed about that, especially when a large part of manga's popularity is that characters aren't obviously coded Asian or White unless the plot calls for it.
And that's not what blackface was about at all. Blackface is about using negative stereotypes; you're thinking of whitewashing.
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- The Pleroma
Even if we lived in a world where the racial components of this weren't a big deal, this would still be a huge warning sign because Ghost in the Shell draws heavily on specifically Japanese concerns about a graying society, an increasingly mechanized and cybernetic society where conventional relationships and sexuality are becoming something else, a government that is absolutely corrupt and dissociated from the concerns of the average person, and a society which would dearly love to pretend that the rest of the world doesn't exist but can't.
These are concerns that many other countries have, but I don't have any confidence that the film will either attempt to offer the original perspective or attempt to adapt the perspective, because of what's coming out about the film.
These are concerns that many other countries have, but I don't have any confidence that the film will either attempt to offer the original perspective or attempt to adapt the perspective, because of what's coming out about the film.
Crazael
Rehydrated Demon King
- Location
- Lost to the vagaries of time.
Hollywood has been doing exactly this for a long time. And not just with Asian media, but also European stuff. And other country's local film industries have been doing the same with Hollywood's material for at least as long.
When it happens, people largely don't care about 'whitewashing' and the debates are about which version is better.
Many films do seem to be afraid to go beyond at least a few set limits. They're not totally formula, but many seem to view certain actions as more risky then others. I think for a long time there was a fear of variety of genre and setting even, with the idea that a science fiction setting or fantasy plot wouldn't sell. I don't think that ideas exists anymore, or if it does exist in Hollywood its much diminished. The market is dominated solely by westerns, romance, period piece and thrillers now.
There does seem to be an issue with representation in American media. How major or minor an issue that is or if its an actual problem is argued a lot online from what I see. Most minorities are lucky to have more then one film every few decades where a minority is a main character. Sturgeon's Law also means because very few big budget films are made, there's less probability of a film with a minority in it being good and widely critically and commercially accepted.
Blacks are the second largest minority group in America at 14%, and are more present in films these days, though I dislike how many media is marketed as essentially 'black' which seems potentially problematic in and off itself, with how audiences and directors usually treat media like that. Many marketers also seem to treat some works starring blacks as almost 'black only' and not bother marketing it towards other groups. People also claim blacks are even over represented in American media sometimes more now.
Female representation also still has issues. Females only make up 30% of the characters in all films, and also 30% of main characters in big budget and all features overall. For a long time males were considered the main market for film media purchases, but that seems less the case nowadays. Better then two decades ago, when the amount of female main characters was under 5% and roles were much more limited, compared to now it seems women can do anything.
Well, not actually anything, but there's a lot of progress compared to resistance in the industry from a few decades before that it might seem like that, there's still a desire by many women and men to push forward more.
The largest minority group in America, Latinos, makes up 20% of America, but its also a combination of a variety of different cultures, languages. I think the American government census groups everyone south of America as Latino, Hispanic, or Spanish and uses the terms interchangeably. Despite the fact that many don't speak Spanish. I think it's an uncomfortably constructed group classification of various cultures, ethnicity races, and nations.
This is also true for the 'non-Hispanic white' classification too that makes up 60% of America. Together with the Hispanic white population this group of total white people makes up 77% of America. The amount who claim to be mixed is 3%
By 2050 the projection of non-Hispanic white is expected to be 50% of the American population, with the white population being 72%.
Of course, the classifications I think are based on visible lines, as over a few generations that's the biggest difference grouping people. Ethnic enclaves of Germans, Italian and Irish for example have mostly faded as time passed, and Chinese Chinatown, Koreatown and others are shrinking or only holding stable instead of growing. So one reason the American government census might group by visible traits is that the American government believes this to be the main dividing or grouping factor, with the ethnicity, nationality, and culture being 'American'.
Though from over hearing talks between certain Europeans and Americans, I'm told 'Americana culture' doesn't actually exist and is one reason America is unstable and in some ways inferior. I've also heard this said about nations like Australia and Mexico. Something about a nation not having enough history to have culture.
American media is pressured more then the media of other nations, I think this is due to America being seen as a multicultural and multi-ethnic melting pot, as well as America's Hollywood being by far the number one leader in international released film. No other nation's film industry comes close to the quality and quantity of released works from Hollywood, or even touches the amount of budget and international connections part of even a single film. So it's considered a big deal and representative for various reasons. Not to mention the power of America's soft diplomatic power and cultural influence, even if the effects of that cultural influence is unpredictable.
Other nations media do license American work sometimes, though the biggest ones rarely get licensed unless a special deal has been worked out or its an attempt for advertising to break into a new market.
I didn't mention Finn because I didn't think he was the main character.
It's an ensemble cast, but I thought Rey was clearly the main, and Finn was the secondary main character. Still the most major character besides Rey, but not the main.
Though Disney was more daring then most, with a female main character, black secondary main, and Guatemalan as the third major supporting character. Usually international release, American made films have one male caucasian or British character to try to guarantee the major American audience as much as possible, the majority of which are white caucasian and many of which are male. I suppose that could've been Han Solo in this film.
Of course, most people probably aren't focused enough on the race, ethnicity, and nationality of the actors for it to matter as the first thing people think of and most vital factor; but it is a factor and a highly visible one, which makes it potentially problematic in a minor or major way.
Film industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The biggest film markets in order are America, China. With Japan, Europe, India, Korea, Australia, Mexico and Brazil as next. China is major because its still growing, so many films do try to appeal to the new Chinese market and try to sustain it. Like Iron Man having a specific scene in the Chinese release showing Stark talking with a Chinese man as an ally.
Pander Express - How You Like That, China?
Colbert talked about this a bit too.
There does seem to be an issue with representation in American media. How major or minor an issue that is or if its an actual problem is argued a lot online from what I see. Most minorities are lucky to have more then one film every few decades where a minority is a main character. Sturgeon's Law also means because very few big budget films are made, there's less probability of a film with a minority in it being good and widely critically and commercially accepted.
Blacks are the second largest minority group in America at 14%, and are more present in films these days, though I dislike how many media is marketed as essentially 'black' which seems potentially problematic in and off itself, with how audiences and directors usually treat media like that. Many marketers also seem to treat some works starring blacks as almost 'black only' and not bother marketing it towards other groups. People also claim blacks are even over represented in American media sometimes more now.
Female representation also still has issues. Females only make up 30% of the characters in all films, and also 30% of main characters in big budget and all features overall. For a long time males were considered the main market for film media purchases, but that seems less the case nowadays. Better then two decades ago, when the amount of female main characters was under 5% and roles were much more limited, compared to now it seems women can do anything.
Well, not actually anything, but there's a lot of progress compared to resistance in the industry from a few decades before that it might seem like that, there's still a desire by many women and men to push forward more.
The largest minority group in America, Latinos, makes up 20% of America, but its also a combination of a variety of different cultures, languages. I think the American government census groups everyone south of America as Latino, Hispanic, or Spanish and uses the terms interchangeably. Despite the fact that many don't speak Spanish. I think it's an uncomfortably constructed group classification of various cultures, ethnicity races, and nations.
This is also true for the 'non-Hispanic white' classification too that makes up 60% of America. Together with the Hispanic white population this group of total white people makes up 77% of America. The amount who claim to be mixed is 3%
By 2050 the projection of non-Hispanic white is expected to be 50% of the American population, with the white population being 72%.
Of course, the classifications I think are based on visible lines, as over a few generations that's the biggest difference grouping people. Ethnic enclaves of Germans, Italian and Irish for example have mostly faded as time passed, and Chinese Chinatown, Koreatown and others are shrinking or only holding stable instead of growing. So one reason the American government census might group by visible traits is that the American government believes this to be the main dividing or grouping factor, with the ethnicity, nationality, and culture being 'American'.
Though from over hearing talks between certain Europeans and Americans, I'm told 'Americana culture' doesn't actually exist and is one reason America is unstable and in some ways inferior. I've also heard this said about nations like Australia and Mexico. Something about a nation not having enough history to have culture.
American media is pressured more then the media of other nations, I think this is due to America being seen as a multicultural and multi-ethnic melting pot, as well as America's Hollywood being by far the number one leader in international released film. No other nation's film industry comes close to the quality and quantity of released works from Hollywood, or even touches the amount of budget and international connections part of even a single film. So it's considered a big deal and representative for various reasons. Not to mention the power of America's soft diplomatic power and cultural influence, even if the effects of that cultural influence is unpredictable.
Other nations media do license American work sometimes, though the biggest ones rarely get licensed unless a special deal has been worked out or its an attempt for advertising to break into a new market.
Yeah, its a shame we didn't get any minority main characters in Star Wars.
The funny thing is people would argue whether or not he really was a main character.
This argument in general is dumb and I can go either way on how to deal with SJ as Motoko. No point in saying "This is racist!" because of course it is! Hell it makes sense for this to be SJ since this is a obscure property and they picked a very well known white actress who could play the part. Its risk averse and a bit racist, but its not surprising in the least. Don't know why its an argument on whether or not its racist still. I'm more focused on how their going to execute this and hope Fate/Zero becomes a movie with Saber as a dude.
I didn't mention Finn because I didn't think he was the main character.
It's an ensemble cast, but I thought Rey was clearly the main, and Finn was the secondary main character. Still the most major character besides Rey, but not the main.
Though Disney was more daring then most, with a female main character, black secondary main, and Guatemalan as the third major supporting character. Usually international release, American made films have one male caucasian or British character to try to guarantee the major American audience as much as possible, the majority of which are white caucasian and many of which are male. I suppose that could've been Han Solo in this film.
Of course, most people probably aren't focused enough on the race, ethnicity, and nationality of the actors for it to matter as the first thing people think of and most vital factor; but it is a factor and a highly visible one, which makes it potentially problematic in a minor or major way.
Film industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The biggest film markets in order are America, China. With Japan, Europe, India, Korea, Australia, Mexico and Brazil as next. China is major because its still growing, so many films do try to appeal to the new Chinese market and try to sustain it. Like Iron Man having a specific scene in the Chinese release showing Stark talking with a Chinese man as an ally.
Pander Express - How You Like That, China?
Colbert talked about this a bit too.
Of course, if they had to pick one dystopian cyberpunk anime to cast a white actress in the adaptation of, maybe take the one set in Kansas City over the one set in Japan.
- Location
- The Pleroma
One of the major reasons why Good Omens has never been made into a theatrical film is because initially the Hollywood production companies wanted to set it in America and cut out major parts of the book, and Pratchett and Gaiman told them where they could stick it. Then, later Terry Gilliam attempted to put a film together but couldn't attract funding for a faithful adaptation. Now it's being done as a British TV movie. So, no, people might not specifically talk about whitewashing but the process of homogenization done by Hollywood to adaptations is something that a lot of people do dislike and do try to avoid whenever possible.
In turn, given that film rights are often sold off, especially for works with dubious or corporate ownership, this means that a lot of works cannot be stopped from being homogenized, with a few noteworthy exceptions (like Alive in Jo'burg remaining South African as it became District 9).
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Its the standard drill. Leading protagonists get whitewashed because Hollywood is like "the audiences, they can't relate, its not our fault we're just trying to make a buck" while quietly ignoring that "they" is increasingly non-white, non-male, and the purported demand for white male leads is likely vastly exaggerated. Meanwhile secondary characters and background characters, including bosses who conspicuously get minimal actual screen-time, are made non-white and/or non-male so Hollywood can go "hey look at how progressive I am, look look look".
trob030490
Professor Kokonoe
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- she/her
Alita/Gally should probably be German/Japanese.
I don't think Johansson is a good choice for her either though. You need someone really tiny and mousy for that role. Plus she doesn't have the right face for it I think, and is too mature and tall looking.
She'd be an okay choice for Caerula farther into the story.
Edit: Apparently they're of similar height numerically actually. Johansson from what I've seen in films looks a lot more striking and what I assumed was taller than Gally, but okay. Still not the right look, but actually the right height. She'd have been a decent choice 10 years ago.
Anyways, Alita being cast as white, just, the right looking white person, would be a lot more sensible than casting Motoko as white, yes. Since Gunnm isn't a political thriller set in a specific country in a post war period of nationalism and xenophobia.
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It's defensive management. You need to cover your ass in case of problems, and very rarely is "this film wasn't diverse enough" going to be why you're getting shit on from on high.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think its defensive management. Its just an old boys club that starts from the conclusion it wants to hear, which is then pretty easy to make a self-fulfilling prophecy when you control production. Its never been based on any sort of actual evidence, its just the usual weasel-worded "people say you shouldn't do it" or "the industry is too cautious". I find this hilarious coming from Hollywood, given how much they love masturbating to how progressive they are every time the Oscars come around.
We live in an era where we regularly have leading blockbusters starring women, where Hispanics are 32% of frequent movie goers in 2013 despite being only 17% of the population, where Transformers 4 and Furious 7 made more money in China than in the USA, and made over 3/4ers of their money abroad. There's just no excuse for their glacial rate of inclusion of diversity. I think its very likely that its actively hurting them, but they keep doing it anyways, yet they keep teaching this shit, regardless of whether its profitable.
You're looking at this cockeyed. The old boys club are the guys who rain shit from above, not the guys doing the actual casting and footwork. The top guys are bigoted, and thus the guys doing the day to day work end up doing whatever is safest in their eyes (playing to their bosses' prejudices) in order to keep their jobs.
Crazael
Rehydrated Demon King
- Location
- Lost to the vagaries of time.
That is one example. And is the authors saying 'no, we won't give you the rights if you plan to do that'. I'm talking about the hundreds of examples of movies being remade in America, or in one of the other major film producing countries, with almost no one making any accusations of racism.