First Contact with Space Age Stasis

Conversely, the higher the tech tree, the easier it is to lose some critical component in the middle.

Fragmentation badly hurt the Empire's periphery, here. It splintered into small polities that didn't share technological information with each other. If each little kingdom lost a different critical component, they might've collectively been able to reconstruct everything, but once everyone loses one layer nobody has access to the top anymore.

The central Empire lost much less knowledge before its final total collapse, but its problems were more political in nature.
The problem here is the dubious plausibility of this happening when a typical "splinter polity" has a population in the hundreds of millions or billions.

Especially when even on those splinter polities, we see clear evidence enough technological infrastructure (i.e. "oil and coal" powered machinery in places like Anacreon, reinforced concrete fortifications on Korrell). Such things strongly, strongly imply that in the splinter polities, someone is still running universities and training engineers and other technical specialists of some kind.

The only thing that makes such a notion remotely plausible would be, in effect, deliberate sabotage of the technological base. For instance, the "Empire deliberately overcentralized high-tech manufacturing and design on highly vulnerable worlds to make political control easier, and this critical infrastructure was then devastated by repeated rounds of civil war."

...

A big part of the problem is that the entire concept of a total "fall of galactic civilization" is predicated on objectively false historiography! At the time of writing, Isaac Asimov was a heavily self-taught man in his early twenties whose college educational background had little to do with the humanities. He was basing his concept of the fall of the Roman Empire largely on Edward Gibbon, who wrote in the 1700s.

Gibbon, in turn, quite simply had no relevant knowledge of the true material conditions that obtained during and shortly after the 'Fall of Rome.' He had no strong grounding in scientific archaeology, which provides modern historians with evidence. He had a somewhat incomplete corpus of classical Latin sources to rely on. He did not even have the analytical toolkit modern historians use to discuss the question!

By modern standards, there is little good that can be said about Gibbon's analysis.

So of course when a fiction author tries to create a fictional world in which the "fall of the Galactic Empire" results in an outcome like what Gibbon largely incorrectly believed had been associated with the fall of Rome... You get an unrealistic historical process that does not reflect things that would realistically happen.

...

In much the same way, science fiction based around concepts like "Space Age stasis" often draw very, very heavily on obsolete concepts from mid-20th century or earlier historiography. Stuff that by modern standards is no better than pop history, often worse because it's often based on deeply flawed, racist, or simply underinformed notions about how various historical times and places functioned. Ideas like "oriental despotism," "decadence," "hydraulic despotism," and Spengler-esque cycles of history quite simply do not align with reality in the way that many fiction authors thought, and in some cases still think, that they do.
 
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The only thing that makes such a notion remotely plausible would be, in effect, deliberate sabotage of the technological base. For instance, the "Empire deliberately overcentralized high-tech manufacturing and design on highly vulnerable worlds to make political control easier, and this critical infrastructure was then devastated by repeated rounds of civil war."

...

A big part of the problem is that the entire concept of a total "fall of galactic civilization" is predicated on objectively false historiography! At the time of writing, Isaac Asimov was a heavily self-taught man in his early twenties whose college educational background had little to do with the humanities. He was basing his concept of the fall of the Roman Empire largely on Edward Gibbon, who wrote in the 1700s.
Also, the sci-fi culture of the time heavily bought into that and similar bad-history ideas; far from calling him on his mistake, his collegues were busy making the same kinds of mistakes. This entire line of criticism just isn't something that was likely to have been made at the time.

Which is I expect why there isn't any handwave (like "deliberate overcentralization") as to why the Empire collapsed to totally and ruinously actually made in the stories, but just by latter-day fans. Asimov was certainly clever enough for it, but it would have never occurred to him or anyone at the time that such a handwave was necessary. The whole "Hi-technology Empire collapses into a social and technological Dark Age" was a common trope of the time, not something that needed explaining.
 
Didn't Asimov invent that trope, though?
There are other science fiction authors who portrayed sophisticated civilizations that had fallen into 'barbarism.'

The trope also existed in the pulps and in early prototypical fantasy fiction before Asimov began his writing career- even if Asimov was the first to write the story in space, and to write it as a space opera, he was very far from the first to write it at all.

As an example of something I suspect Asimov had read, and certainly many of his readers had read, consider Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon, published in 1930. Last and First Men chronicles the rise and fall of a long sequence of posthuman civilizations in our solar system, and collapse of technology from its heights shows up multiple times, as I recall. Whereas the Foundation stories didn't start showing up in Astounding until the 1940s.

Or the tragically short-lived Stanley Weinbaum,* who in A Martian Odyssey and The Valley of Dreams portrays a civilization of Martians that are interestingly and convincingly alien, and who in the past had explored space and visited Earth to interact with early humans... but who now lack the means to travel in space due to resource depletion (if I remember correctly).
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*(man might have revolutionized SF at least as much as Asimov or Heinlein if he'd been able to write for more than eighteen months before dying of cancer. He managed to shake up the field quite a bit as it was)

Also, the sci-fi culture of the time heavily bought into that and similar bad-history ideas; far from calling him on his mistake, his collegues were busy making the same kinds of mistakes. This entire line of criticism just isn't something that was likely to have been made at the time.
Yes.

To ramble about this a bit...

When operating on an unsophisticated level, we often imagine that history is a static record of "what happened," which is visible to everyone and has always been known.

But while that might accurately describe history, it does not describe historiography, the study of history and the efforts of historians to create narratives, frameworks, and explanations that recount this "static record."

In the past, many events that we now know occurred were barely even understood to have happened at all, or were understood in very different terms that obscured truths about the events that we now understand. Many things that were believed at the time, we can now confirm through scientific archaeology, DNA testing, and other methods to just not be as imagined.

...

But in many cases, the products of this early and low-quality historiography shamble on in our fiction as "zombie lies." And honestly this is something I've been calling out a lot in the cluster of threads we see from @chornedsnorkack , because frankly he tends to incorporate said 'zombie' assumptions in his work by relying so heavily on a mid-20th century reference pool.
 
Over an entire galactic empire? A vast number, and a very wide range of subjects. The sheer scale of such an empire guarantees it; they can't be that rare or they'd have never come up in the story, and the scale of a setting means that even if they are "only" rare then there must be millions or billions.
The fact that it is an Empire, and has been such for centuries, counts against it. The wide range of subjects part.

On Trantor, there were 10 million printers... printing copies of "Imperial Trantor News". Compiled in the Imperial News offices 10 000 km away.

I suggest that if someone did not like to read "Bel Riose is guilty - all hail Emperor Cleon!", he did have the options to not buy the newspaper. Or he might whisper "Bel Riose is innocent" - as Barr and Devers heard the rumours on their way back.

Someone who dares might shout "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!". If he does not want others to read "Imperial Trantor News", he might vandalize the printer at the newsroom, or just unplug it. Or scribble "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!" on a wall. But what he could not to is make the printer print several copies of "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!" - not without specialized tools and skills he does not have. The printer prints what is being broadcast 10 000 km away to 10 000 000 printers - or nothing at all.
And even if he and his gang managed to seize the offices of "Imperial Trantor News" and tried to broadcast, say "We hold the newspaper! Come and join the revolution!", it does not mean that this will be printed in 10 000 000 printers around Trantor. If the gang holds the newspaper office but not the neighbouring cable exchanges, the loyalists of Emperor Cleon who still hold those cable exchanges would unplug the cables to the newspaper office in rebel hands - again with the outcome that the newsrooms, this time all of them, print nothing rather than something unprintable.

If it is by design technically hard to print anything unapproved, then there will likely be other subject matters that are unprintable. Like, you cannot print "Emperor Cleon is an usurper!" - but you also cannot print "Georgina Spelvin is a whore!". Which is a side effect of the Empire being, well, Empire.
 
None of that has anything to do with libraries or private collections of books and records. Also, someone like Hari Seldon could not have existed in the first place in an empire with the total information control you are trying to imply they had, even if they had the information technology to pull it off which they didn't.
 
The Imperial News might have its exclusive fleet of printers, but that does not by itself prevent someone from making their own newspapers using low-tech historical methods. In order to do that, they'd either need totalitarian levels of supervision or they'd need to suppress documentation of historical printing methods. There is no indication of the former.
 
The Imperial News might have its exclusive fleet of printers, but that does not by itself prevent someone from making their own newspapers using low-tech historical methods. In order to do that, they'd either need totalitarian levels of supervision or they'd need to suppress documentation of historical printing methods. There is no indication of the former.
Napoleon I is commonly given as an example of ordinary autocracy as opposed to "totalitarian levels", yet he successfully reduced the total number of newspapers in France to 4 in Paris and 1 in all other departments. Printing a newspaper even by low tech historical methods is a large scale undertaking easy to disrupt if forbidden.
Now the bigger question is what exactly the breathing room for Galactic Empire upper classes was that they enjoyed by the implicit social contract. What was printable, what unprintable?
 
Napoleon I is commonly given as an example of ordinary autocracy as opposed to "totalitarian levels", yet he successfully reduced the total number of newspapers in France to 4 in Paris and 1 in all other departments.
Which is not at all comparable to seriously suppressing information in a galactic empire. One that functions for millennia, so it couldn't be anywhere close as tightly controlled as you are trying to claim or it would have collapsed much, much earlier. In decades, not thousands of years.
 
The fact that it is an Empire, and has been such for centuries, counts against it. The wide range of subjects part.

On Trantor, there were 10 million printers... printing copies of "Imperial Trantor News". Compiled in the Imperial News offices 10 000 km away.

I suggest that if someone did not like to read "Bel Riose is guilty - all hail Emperor Cleon!", he did have the options to not buy the newspaper. Or he might whisper "Bel Riose is innocent" - as Barr and Devers heard the rumours on their way back.

Someone who dares might shout "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!". If he does not want others to read "Imperial Trantor News", he might vandalize the printer at the newsroom, or just unplug it. Or scribble "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!" on a wall. But what he could not to is make the printer print several copies of "Bel Riose is innocent - down with Emperor Cleon!" - not without specialized tools and skills he does not have. The printer prints what is being broadcast 10 000 km away to 10 000 000 printers - or nothing at all.
And even if he and his gang managed to seize the offices of "Imperial Trantor News" and tried to broadcast, say "We hold the newspaper! Come and join the revolution!", it does not mean that this will be printed in 10 000 000 printers around Trantor. If the gang holds the newspaper office but not the neighbouring cable exchanges, the loyalists of Emperor Cleon who still hold those cable exchanges would unplug the cables to the newspaper office in rebel hands - again with the outcome that the newsrooms, this time all of them, print nothing rather than something unprintable.

If it is by design technically hard to print anything unapproved, then there will likely be other subject matters that are unprintable. Like, you cannot print "Emperor Cleon is an usurper!" - but you also cannot print "Georgina Spelvin is a whore!". Which is a side effect of the Empire being, well, Empire.
Nothing you said is relevant to anything @Avernus said. You're just babbling for no reason.

Avernus was not talking about political speech. Yes, it is reasonable to infer that an autocratic state will censor political speech in various ways. The exact details of how it censors political speech can be discussed, but for purposes of the conversation we were having, those details simply do not matter.

It is beyond ridiculous to imagine an industrialized civilization, one that ever was prosperous and successful, and that remained prosperous under an autocracy, in which the autocracy seeks to censor technical knowledge.

Emperor Whatshisnuts VII, I don't care about his name because I'm not obsessed with the Foundation novels- anyway. Emperor Whatshisnuts VII will most likely try to stop anyone from mass-publishing essays saying "Whatshisnuts VII is an idiot." He may well even try to stop historians from describing him as an idiot in retrospective, though of course his power to do so collapses when he dies.

Emperor Whatshisnuts is NOT likely to try to stop people from mass-publishing textbooks that say "and this is how to maintain a nuclear reactor." Especially when nuclear reactors remain the cornerstone of his military strength!

...

If you wish to justify the collapse of technical knowledge in a galactic empire, you must find a better explanation than "the empire controls political speech carefully."
 
If you wish to justify the collapse of technical knowledge in a galactic empire, you must find a better explanation than "the empire controls political speech carefully."
Also, "in the same way, for thousands of years, across an entire galaxy". Because realistically, not every Emperor is going to have the same position on what should or shouldn't be censored (not that "massive censorship" was ever part of their characterization in the first place that I can recall); so even if Mad Emperor Crazyguy III decides to censor how to smelt metal or whatever, there's going to be a huge amount of records from before and after him, in nooks and crannies all over the galaxy.

As I've said before it's a scale problem; the bigger the civilization, the harder it is for knowledge to be lost without an apocalyptic disaster outright destroying everything. Imagine for example just how hard it would be for knowledge of, say, electricity to be lost on RL Earth; the knowledge is in just too many places to be lost short of something like a global nuclear war brute-forcing the issue. And for a galactic civilization, multiple that by orders of magnitude.
 
It is beyond ridiculous to imagine an industrialized civilization, one that ever was prosperous and successful, and that remained prosperous under an autocracy, in which the autocracy seeks to censor technical knowledge.

Emperor Whatshisnuts VII, I don't care about his name because I'm not obsessed with the Foundation novels- anyway. Emperor Whatshisnuts VII will most likely try to stop anyone from mass-publishing essays saying "Whatshisnuts VII is an idiot." He may well even try to stop historians from describing him as an idiot in retrospective, though of course his power to do so collapses when he dies.

Emperor Whatshisnuts is NOT likely to try to stop people from mass-publishing textbooks that say "and this is how to maintain a nuclear reactor." Especially when nuclear reactors remain the cornerstone of his military strength!
It's not ridiculous to imagine that a government might try to censor some kinds of technical knowledge, specifically technical knowledge that might be used to destabilize it. Powerful states today do censor technical information related to nuclear weapons and other advanced weapons systems, in order to preserve their military advantages. As I remember, the Tokugawa Shogunate did successfully more-or-less ban/monopolize guns inside Japan for a few centuries. An empire that's ruled more-or-less its entire ecumene for many lifetimes (as the OP envisions) is particularly likely to be able to do things like that, as one of the limiting factors on forbidding or bottlenecking potentially disruptive technologies is the threat that some rival may gain an advantage by using them without such restrictions (note that the Tokugawa Shogunate during its period of isolation is one of the closest analogies real history offers for a stable ecumene-empire).

Considering Jon's Law, I can easily imagine a well-established ecumene-empire trying to bottleneck/centralize/monopolize space travel and advanced power generation; declaring and enforcing a state monopoly on spacecraft and nuclear power, putting those technologies under the stewardship of institutions carefully cultivated for regime loyalty, and gatekeeping detailed knowledge of how those technologies work. In such a society, there would probably be mass market publication textbooks on how nuclear reactors work, but they wouldn't give you enough information to actually build one; if you wanted that knowledge you'd have to submit to the years-long intense screening and indoctrination involved in becoming a trusted member of the Empire's Guild of Nuclear Engineers, which is an insular subculture functionally closer to an Indian jati than to anything that exists in Western society (note: openings into the Guild are rare and reserved for candidates of exceptional talent; its membership is mostly hereditary, making it function very much like an ethnic group). And of course there'd be plenty of technical manuals on how to actually build, maintain, and operate a nuclear reactor, but they'd all be reserved for the eyes of trusted members the Guild of Nuclear Engineers, locked up in libraries controlled by the Guild that only trusted members of the Guild are allowed to set foot in, and written in the special secret language that only trusted members of the Guild know.
 
It occurred to me today that a longstanding Empire also needs to worry about scaling in terms of the total size of the tech- and knowledge-base.

The deeper the knowledge-base, the harder it is to educate someone to the cutting edge. Since about 1700, it's been impossible for one person to be an expert in all fields - there is simply too much total knowledge to learn in a lifetime. But later, as the individual fields grew, individual fields outgrew what anyone could keep up with. Sometime during the 20th century, it became impossible for one person to be expert in all branches of mathematics.

But even as the branches proliferate, they grow longer. PhDs used to take four years as a rule; now, it's closer to eight in many subjects, and that increase took less than a century. A society with an academic tradition over ten thousand years long might well have subjects that take upwards of forty years just to understand the body of work that's already been done, even if you focus on them to the exclusion of all others. (Granted, in Foundation itself, the character of Gaal argues against taking this too far, as at the story start he holds a doctorate while still a "young man")

Narrow the branches enough, and pile millennia of research on top, and you have millions of branches. Add the requirement that a branch needs a whole academic community to sustain itself on a given planet, and the assumption that most planets are not unduly dedicated to teaching, and that they are not on average far more populated than Earth, and it becomes perfectly reasonable that any given planet might totally lack understanding of some fraction of the whole corpus of knowledge, although an Encyclopedia Galactica is not obviously absurd with mere millions of branches.
 
It's not ridiculous to imagine that a government might try to censor some kinds of technical knowledge, specifically technical knowledge that might be used to destabilize it.
I mean, yes, up to a point. But not to the point where civilization just utterly fucking collapses because nobody in the galaxy can remember the relevant knowledge or where to find it.

If nothing else, as the empire begins to lose control over the periphery you'd expect more instances of the people who do have access to that controlled knowledge going "WELP" and legging it for the periphery.

Because some periphery warlord is probably willing to pay an all-expenses-paid lifetime on a resort world with free booze and hot and cold running showgirls to anyone who can train said warlord's warship maintenance technicians. It's better than living out your days trying and failing to bodge together the last generation of imperial warships right up until the ship you're on finally blows up for lack of spare parts.
 
I mean, yes, up to a point. But not to the point where civilization just utterly fucking collapses because nobody in the galaxy can remember the relevant knowledge or where to find it.
As far as Foundation itself is concerned, you have cause and effect reversed. Civilization collapsed, causing the knowledge to get lost. The collapse was underway for centuries before the knowledge became unrecoverable.

Contrast to the idea presented as false in the story, that their Encyclopedia would prevent the Empire from falling.
 
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I mean, yes, up to a point. But not to the point where civilization just utterly fucking collapses because nobody in the galaxy can remember the relevant knowledge or where to find it.

If nothing else, as the empire begins to lose control over the periphery you'd expect more instances of the people who do have access to that controlled knowledge going "WELP" and legging it for the periphery.

Because some periphery warlord is probably willing to pay an all-expenses-paid lifetime on a resort world with free booze and hot and cold running showgirls to anyone who can train said warlord's warship maintenance technicians. It's better than living out your days trying and failing to bodge together the last generation of imperial warships right up until the ship you're on finally blows up for lack of spare parts.
You're right about that, but...

Something I was thinking of, but did not write in my previous post, is that if nuclear power and space travel are the responsibilities of what are basically insular jati, that would make it easy for the Empire to take a "load all the machinery that's even remotely portable and all the critical skilled personnel onto the evacuation transports, smash everything left behind, leave the potential rival state that now controls the planet with nothing" approach to abandoning planets. If the Guild of Nuclear Engineers all live in their own gated communities and live basically segregated from the local general population, it'd be relatively easy to arrange for more-or-less all of them to be on an evacuation transport whether they want it or not. And the people in such a jati-like Guild of Nuclear Engineers would be loyal to and at home in an Empire-wide Guild subculture; the rest of the local population would be foreigners to them, and defecting to the locals as individuals or small groups would mean living the rest of their lives among culturally different foreigners they've been raised to hold themselves aloof from (significant note: the easiest way to get people to tolerate such segregation would be to encourage them to fear and disdain the average Imperial subject).

If something like that happened in the Foundation galaxy, it might explain a lot about how extreme the loss of technology was in the Periphery after the Empire abandoned it.
 
As far as Foundation itself is concerned, you have cause and effect reversed. Civilization collapsed, causing the knowledge to get lost. The collapse was underway for centuries before the knowledge became unrecoverable.

Contrast to the idea presented as false in the story, that their Encyclopedia would prevent the Empire from falling.
Yes.

The problem is that the idea presented as true in the story is kinda bullshit.

Specifically the part where the knowledge gets lost everywhere, or at least would get lost everywhere if not for the action of this special super-elite knowledge preservation program.

You're right about that, but...

Something I was thinking of, but did not write in my previous post, is that if nuclear power and space travel are the responsibilities of what are basically insular jati, that would make it easy for the Empire to take a "load all the machinery that's even remotely portable and all the critical skilled personnel onto the evacuation transports, smash everything left behind, leave the potential rival state that now controls the planet with nothing" approach to abandoning planets. If the Guild of Nuclear Engineers all live in their own gated communities and live basically segregated from the local general population, it'd be relatively easy to arrange for more-or-less all of them to be on an evacuation transport whether they want it or not. And the people in such a jati-like Guild of Nuclear Engineers would be loyal to and at home in an Empire-wide Guild subculture; the rest of the local population would be foreigners to them, and defecting to the locals as individuals or small groups would mean living the rest of their lives among culturally different foreigners they've been raised to hold themselves aloof from (significant note: the easiest way to get people to tolerate such segregation would be to encourage them to fear and disdain the average Imperial subject).

If something like that happened in the Foundation galaxy, it might explain a lot about how extreme the loss of technology was in the Periphery after the Empire abandoned it.
It's not that this couldn't work to some extent. But the extremity and totality to which it is portrayed as working across such a vast swath of time and space strikes me as very implausible, now that I think about it.
 
Something I was thinking of, but did not write in my previous post, is that if nuclear power and space travel are the responsibilities of what are basically insular jati, that would make it easy for the Empire to take a "load all the machinery that's even remotely portable and all the critical skilled personnel onto the evacuation transports, smash everything left behind, leave the potential rival state that now controls the planet with nothing" approach to abandoning planets. If the Guild of Nuclear Engineers all live in their own gated communities and live basically segregated from the local general population, it'd be relatively easy to arrange for more-or-less all of them to be on an evacuation transport whether they want it or not. And the people in such a jati-like Guild of Nuclear Engineers would be loyal to and at home in an Empire-wide Guild subculture; the rest of the local population would be foreigners to them, and defecting to the locals as individuals or small groups would mean living the rest of their lives among culturally different foreigners they've been raised to hold themselves aloof from (significant note: the easiest way to get people to tolerate such segregation would be to encourage them to fear and disdain the average Imperial subject).

If something like that happened in the Foundation galaxy, it might explain a lot about how extreme the loss of technology was in the Periphery after the Empire abandoned it.
But as far as I know, there's no indication that anything like that happened. If that was the reason for the loss of technolgy, it's very unlikely that it wouldn't have been mentioned at least in passing.

The issue isn't that it's impossible to think of scenarios where such a major loss of knowledge happened; it's that there's just no indications in the actual stories of any such scenarios. The series was written with the assumption endemic to the time that such a "Dark Age" was simply what happened when an empire fell, no further explanation needed. Thus, the plot hole.
 
But as far as I know, there's no indication that anything like that happened. If that was the reason for the loss of technolgy, it's very unlikely that it wouldn't have been mentioned at least in passing.

The issue isn't that it's impossible to think of scenarios where such a major loss of knowledge happened; it's that there's just no indications in the actual stories of any such scenarios. The series was written with the assumption endemic to the time that such a "Dark Age" was simply what happened when an empire fell, no further explanation needed. Thus, the plot hole.
It's the same underlying logic as Asimov's story of the same vintage, Nightfall- though in that case, and perhaps to some extent in Foundation's, the logic came out of the rather... shall we say, creatively powerful but very biased brain of John Campbell.

Nightfall was written because Campbell basically threw the story at Asimov, saying to write the story of a planet bathed in near-eternal daylight where once every few thousand years, night fell. Campbell's conviction is that everyone would go insane.

This is part of a narrative that gained traction starting in the Enlightenment and which was frankly taken to absurd, irrational extremes in the Victorian era: that there is a clear bright line between "civilization" and "madness," that the strictures and norms of civilization are all that can keep madness at bay, and that any relaxation of social conformity could cause madness and collapse through "decadence."

We see this in the pulp era, in Lovecraft, in a lot of the opposition to things like women's suffrage and "race mixing" and so on. We see this recurring terrible fear, almost invariably on the part of upper and middle-class white men, that society is a vast unstable rickety edifice that will collapse almost immediately if people stop following the rules in every particular. And that it will collapse, not because of any specific thing, but just because that's what civilization does, as soon as people start breaking the rules.

The fear of "mass madness" has subsided somewhat since the '60s- one of the legitimate contributions of the boomer generation to Western culture is that they did significantly shift the zeitgeist away from being controlled by such fear. But since @chornedsnorkack almost never really pays much attention to any science fiction dating to the start of the New Wave or later...

Well, anything you see him actually talking about is on some level going to be informed by this belief in "mass madness" and "collapse" that just sort of naturally destroy everything as soon as that all-important, all-autocratic, cis straight white man in a suit or a shiny hat is removed from his seat of All-Fatherly power.
 
I mean, yes, up to a point. But not to the point where civilization just utterly fucking collapses because nobody in the galaxy can remember the relevant knowledge or where to find it.

If nothing else, as the empire begins to lose control over the periphery you'd expect more instances of the people who do have access to that controlled knowledge going "WELP" and legging it for the periphery.
That´s one of the problems for the Foundation itself, actually. Which Asimov repeatedly hints at... but then ignores.
Because some periphery warlord is probably willing to pay an all-expenses-paid lifetime on a resort world with free booze and hot and cold running showgirls to anyone who can train said warlord's warship maintenance technicians. It's better than living out your days trying and failing to bodge together the last generation of imperial warships right up until the ship you're on finally blows up for lack of spare parts.
The thing is, a lone technician or a small band is more likely to be "trying and failing" in a periphery kingdom than in central Empire.
Not all Empire techmen are competent. Mallow met one who was not particularly:
the techman said:
Sir, I am a tech-man, senior grade. I have twenty years behind me as supervisor and I studied under the great Bier at the University of Trantor.
Hober Mallow said:
Suppose I were to blast a vital part into nothingness? I suppose the machines aren't immune to atomic forces. Suppose I
fuse a vital connection, or smash a quartz D-tube? what about the generator? Could you repair it?
That techman could not answer, implying the answer was "no".
Mallow met just one techman. That techman had the motive to brag about and possibly exaggerate his qualifications.

Foundation had technicians as incompetent as that, too:
Lewis Bort said:
For instance, two months ago some fool tampered with the power plant in the Thessalekian Temple one of the large ones. He blew up five city blocks, of course. It was considered divine vengeance by everyone, including the priests."
Poly Verisof said:
"I guess not! It was the Holy Food to him."
Foundation had plenty of incompetent technicians by design - precisely to keep Four Kingdoms, and then Askone, in dependence by assuring the priests could not be turned against Foundation. Mallow knew such people well.

But the Foundation did have better technicians, who supplied the technology the priests were handling on Foundation´s behalf.
How did Mallow get the confidence that Empire did not have better technicians than the one he met?

Well, he had Barr´s word for it:
Onum Barr said:
Half a planet would be wiped out before the smallest power station would be touched. They are irreplaceable
If Empire had techmen capable of building new or repairing damaged power stations, Onum might have said so... well, Hober risked his country on that phrase.

The techman Hober met would not have been an asset for Korell, not unless Korell also was supplied a working nuclear reactor for him to care for. Which may have been the case for the warships Siwenna did supply, that techmen like this came along... but such techmen were useless otherwise.

But the bigger question is how much Hober himself stood to earn.
 
The thing is, a lone technician or a small band is more likely to be "trying and failing" in a periphery kingdom than in central Empire.
Not all Empire techmen are competent. Mallow met one who was not particularly:
No see, that's the problem.

The process I describe should have been in place before this could happen.

The galaxy is too large, and the incentive for various factions and agents in the periphery to secure some experts who know what the fuck they're doing is too great. The situation could not plausibly have reached this level without the desperate efforts of provincial leaders (including economic as well as political leaders) to assemble a critical mass of knowledge about how to replicate and maintain what is by their standards the basic technology of their civilization.

The underlying assumption of Foundation requires one of three things.

1) The assumption that empires just naturally fall and that this is just what happens, that society goes "decadent" and forgets how to do basic normal things, and then technology is forgotten and people inherently go back to scraping out a primitive existence with rocks and sticks and mud as soon as the political superstructure breaks down. OR

2) Everyone is just magically cursed to forget how to do anything useful, except the bunch of STEM nerds the '40s science fiction reading audience is meant to identify with the relative minority of master scientists who form the Foundations.

3) The imperial government actively sabotaging technological development on a galactic scale, probably as a bid to centralize power and control exactly as you seem to think a large empire should do, with the result that when inevitably a civil war breaks out anyway, too much infrastructure is destroyed too rapidly and irreversible decline sets in.

(1) is bullshit, (2) is a plot convenience, and (3) is not supported in the text but makes a lot of sense. With interesting implications for your theory of, and obvious extreme passion for, the concept of imperial governance.
But the bigger question is how much Hober himself stood to earn.
I fail to see what that has to do with anything we were talking about. Are you just injecting a random question in hopes of changing the subject?
 
I'm going to propose a different mechanism for technology loss - long term overcapacity.

At some point the Empire learned to make nuclear reactors (and other infrastructure, factories etc.) that would last more than a thousand years. At some later point, they built a lot more of those than they needed, putting most of them in storage. When they colonized a planet or built a starship, they'd pack up and move spare reactors from an inner planet because it was so much cheaper. So for the next several hundred years, the vast majority of planets never built another reactor.

Then some civil wars happened. The few remaining reactor-building factories were destroyed in the fighting and many of their workers killed. Afterwards, it was found that, as no such factories had been built in living memory, nobody remembered how to set them up - they tried, but the results were vastly inferior. Perhaps they could've figured it out eventually, if the civil wars didn't keep resetting their process - after all, there were some archived works explaining the underlying principles. But that recovery only actually happened in one place, and only because that place desperately needed some less metal-intensive reactor designs as of several decades before the great fragmentation.
 
It's plausible, but it strongly suggests that same root problem- grandiose imperial mismanagement.

It's a common line that autocracies are better because they can plan farther into the future. What if the "overcapacity" you describe were the result of an emperor or two just obsessively ordering more reactors built, as a planned economy measure, making far more than he could possibly use and enough to choke out the ongoing production capacity of the state in the long run after his death?

It's the only way I could see any state vaguely like the Empire from Foundation doing that.
 
The technological decay involved more than just nuclear reactors, but I was using them as a clear example.

It's the only way I could see any state vaguely like the Empire from Foundation doing that.
There are other paths to massive overcapacity. For example, provisioning for continued rapid expansion, but maintaining that level of production when the expansion slows to a crawl. Failing to take the equipment's greatly increased lifespans into account when stockpiling spare parts, ending up with enough spares to completely rebuild everything before it becomes clear that the originals are lasting centuries rather than decades. Deliberately overbuilding tools production for the long run, with the associated power demands, in order to satisfy a short-run need more quickly. Or simply changing tastes across the Empire, like substituting simplicity for opulence, resulted in a more energy-efficient society just as reactor construction peaked.
 
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3) The imperial government actively sabotaging technological development on a galactic scale, probably as a bid to centralize power and control exactly as you seem to think a large empire should do, with the result that when inevitably a civil war breaks out anyway, too much infrastructure is destroyed too rapidly and irreversible decline sets in.

(3) is not supported in the text but makes a lot of sense.
I fail to see what that has to do with anything we were talking about.
Well, we have a closer view of Foundation than of old Empire.
And Foundation very expressly is actively sabotaging technological development where it can:
Salvor Hardin said:
True, but we have trained them. Their knowledge of their tools is purely empirical; and they have a firm belief in the mummery that surrounds them.
Sef Sermak said:
And if one pierces through the mummery, and has the genius to brush aside empiricism, what is to prevent him from learning actual techniques, and selling out to the most satisfactory bidder? What price our value to the kingdoms, then?
Salvor Hardin said:
Little chance of that, Sermak. You are being superficial. The best men on the planets of the kingdoms are sent here to the Foundation each year and educated into the priesthood. And the best of these remain here as research students. If you think that those who are left, with practically no knowledge of the elements of science, or worse, still, with the distorted knowledge the priests receive, can penetrate at a bound to nuclear power, to electronics, to the theory of the hyperwarp you have a very romantic and very foolish idea of science. It takes lifetimes of training and an excellent brain to get that far.
Purposely draining the Four Kingdoms of "the best brains", who do not return, and feeding misinformation to the rest that makes independent technological development harder, is intentional sabotage.

We don´t get a close view of how old Empire functioned at good times. But it looks plausible that old Empire also engaged in sabotaging technological development in Anacreon, and with similar reasons - to benefit from a technology monopoly/cartel.
And achieved a long term success. The difference being that in the last two centuries, while the Empire succeeded in sabotaging the independent technological capability of Anacreon, it failed in the part of supplying dependent technology, and Foundation succeeded.

But a question which does NOT get pursued in the 260 years that Foundation functioned as high technology monopoly...
Since Foundation consisted of multiple individuals (even in Foundation, 1 million souls, 150 000 public sector employees), it was in an important sense a cartel.
If Sermak was worried about trainee priests "selling out to the most satisfactory bidder", why not citizens of Foundation itself? Like Hober Mallow?
 
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