Sure if you do something like use a perfect defense every round but if you 'only' fight on the same level as may worm parahumans then it should easily be possible to get as many motes from stunting as you spend.Alectai said:
Fiend: Thread Two, the Rethreading [Exalted/Worm]
- Thread starter logiccosmic
- Start date
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
One on one, yes.
Worm Parahumans don't fight one on one, they believe in dogpiles when at all possible--and an Exalt who's "Holding back" to not mote tap is going to run out of motes real fast taking on three or four people that they can't just flat out ignore.
Worm Parahumans don't fight one on one, they believe in dogpiles when at all possible--and an Exalt who's "Holding back" to not mote tap is going to run out of motes real fast taking on three or four people that they can't just flat out ignore.
This is not the first time I've seen this mentionned so I thought I'd correct this misconception. Here's what the Charm says about Shaping defense:illhousen said:
(emphasis mine)Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai said:
This Shaping defense bonus from DTAS is useless against thing like soul manipulation or being teleported. She'd need Sea Dissolves Herself for that. Or Purity of Madness Defense, which is only 1 Charm away for her, but it wouldn't work as well for Taylor.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Not really the point. You can fuck with an Exaltation. You can warp it, or fool its targeting system, or trap it. You can leech power off it (hell, we've got a canonical Knack that lets Lunars do just that by murdering their Solar mates) or shove power in (hello, Akuma). Lady K'tula managed to fuck with an Exaltation that empowered human excellence to the point that she created Charms for being a tentacled horror. Black Mirror Revelation remains a thing as that exists. Glory to the Most High, for god's sake.Lancealot said:
Is this sort of achievement beyond Noelle? Yes, definitely right now, and almost certainly forever.
Is it beyond Scion? Fuck no. The guy's a moron, but he's basically a Fetich Soul channeling Chungzilla. Given time, and motive, he could well screw with an Exaltation he got his hands on. Hell, he's all but developed his own Exaltations in the form of the passengers - specifically referred to as "shards", remember? Is it beyond the Simurgh? I'm inclined to say no, especially considering how much smarter she is than Scion. Sure, her success would probably be more along the lines of the changes to Sidereals or Lunars than Abyssals or Infernals, but she could probably still pull it off.
To my mind, only two things remain sacrosanct, no matter how altered an Exaltation becomes:
1) Raise up heroes.
2) Give them the tools to war with titans.
So long as those remain in play, you've got wiggle room. Infernals don't even use Ability Charms, and were specifically warped by and for the titans, and they're still uplifted heroes with the tools to war with titans.
If I was statting up Noelle and got asked "so what does her power do if she nabs an Exalt without a Shaping defence" I'd say "she spits out Half-Caste clones".
Half-Castes using appropriately-themed Spirit Charms, mind you, because the alternative is both insanely stupid and entirely canonical (funny how often those cross over).
This is irrelevant, though, because as others have said, even if Noelle's bullshit isn't considered a Shaping effect, Taylor's inorganic at the moment, and so just as immune as Weld.
EDIT: To address the question of Shaping effects - generally, something's only a Shaping effect if it should be defended against by anti-Shaping effects. Even if it plainly is a Shaping effect. Tagging Bloodless Murk Evasion as a Shaping effect was a stupid decision by the writers, for example, because it means "I perfectly dodge" can be shut down by, say, a Manse that disallows Shaping effects. At which point you die. While the Abyssal "I turn into shadows to perfectly dodge" is a-OK, because it arbitrarily lacks a Shaping tag.
So the question "is Trickster's teleportation a Shaping effect" can be answered with "should it be shut down by Integrity-Protecting Prana"? And if the answer is "no", then it's not a Shaping effect.
...not that it matters, since Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai only protects against Shaping effects that alter the Infernal's body, of which "you are now swapped with that truck" isn't one.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Does destroying an Exaltation interfere with its ability to raise up heroes with the tools to cast down titans?Mastigo said:
If no, then it's fine to destroy it. This is, however, pretty unlikely. Interesting plot hook, though. Ghostly Exaltations, flitting through the cycle of reincarnation to replace the would-be souls of the newborn, their destiny recast in the Calendar of Setesh.
Arthur Hansen
Author of no Authority.
- Location
- Utah, behind the Zion Curtain.
Has not run into a Q enough Q.Mastigo said:
I laughed ^_^illhousen said:
As for how Shaping is defined, this is a very complicated issue.The official definition is "this is treated as a Shaping effect". I kid you not. Now this get further detailed there:
It also note that Charms are part of the laws of Creation and therefore usually not Shaping.
Primordial Charms are more often Shaping because they don't really pay much attention to the laws of Creation. Which is an explanation why the Abyssal Charms that perfectly dodge by turning into a shadow isn't Shaping while the Infernal one is. I'm not saying it's a good idea, note.
That's the first half. Things that happen through pure act of will and redefinition of reality, rather than the regular laws of physics. Shaping is Exalted's "magical bullshit".
But it's much more complicated than that, since the meta reason for Shaping to exist is to let Exalts fight titans that can reshape reality at a whim. It is so that an exalt warrior must be killed in battle while he wields his daiklave to defend himself rather than just being turned into a fish and left to asphyxiate. So that you cannot force the Exalts out of their protagonist role and are forced to face them in the narrative of their epic.
Then mechanically, it fulfills a role. There are 4 keywords that describe types of physical threats (there's also social threats which are avoided with mental defenses), Crippling, Poison, Disease and Shaping. The first three are self explanatory, and are applied to effects that cripple, poison, or infect with a disease. Shaping is usually applied to effects that are none of the above and that cannot be defended with skill. For example draining someone's energy (motes of essence) is your typical magical bullshit, but soulsteel weapons aren't Shaping even though they drain motes when they draw blood ; that's because you can avoid that with skill, just don't get cut. If you move someone by seizing them and pushing them backwards, they can avoid your grabbing them, so you don't need Shaping. If you use telekinesis to do it but enough Strength and Athletics can negate it, you don't need Shaping. If you use a teleportation that cannot be avoided no matter what actions you take or how determinate you are, this is almost definitely going to be Shaping, because effects needs a defense and no other defense apply.
Possibly, it depends on the specifics. You'd have to have a reasonable chance of defending. If he can do it instantly you have to stay outside his line of sight at all times, that's a no go. If you have to move entirely out of sight in a split second (rather than simply moving away from the specific spot he's aiming for) then it's going to be completely impossible in most situation, so it's a no go again.mc2rpg said:
But if it needs aiming and can be dodged reliably by a skilled opponent simply by moving around, then it doesn't need to be Shaping. It may still be if it is appropriate to the way the power work.
Arthur Hansen
Author of no Authority.
- Location
- Utah, behind the Zion Curtain.
No, I think if he can see you and what he wants/can replace you with its that fast that you can't dodge it.
As a side note, while all Breaker effects are most likely Shaping because they break the rules of physics, it doesn't mean that non-Breaker won't get slapped the Keyword for the same reason. Most definitions tend to be based on the result, it answers the "what", not the "how". So a teleporter would be labelled a Mover rather than a Breaker but may still be breaking (or side-stepping) the rules of physics. Also who knows what "Shaker" actually means? I really don't think that Vista should get away without a Shaping keyword on her power (but that's just my opinion that the fabric of space shouldn't be toyed with like taffy).
Shaping is altering/molding reality into something else. Involuntary shapeshifting, or a 'baleful polymorph' in the vein of Psychosoma's power is the most clear-cut example of what a Shaping defense is designed to prevent. Shaping of the one's surroundings, whether it's the Wyld or the essence of Creation itself, would be something along the lines of Labyrinth's power. It's not something that's exclusively the province of any I'd be careful about slapping the label onto random abilities; Trickster's teleportation doesn't alter anything, it just replaces stuff with other stuff. Clockblocker's power is less easily categorized, but I'm still inclined to say that it doesn't make the cut because nothing is actually changed at the end of the day.
I'd almost certainly classify both of those things as shaping, or some other keyword at least. Pretty much any charm that does something beyond pure damage (or facilitating pure damage) to another person is classified under a keyword. Shaping is a common one for weird effects, but I could see Regent's ability being crippling for example.Orm Embar said:
From a narrative point of view, this isn't a big problem either. The only scene long defense Taylor has easy access to is DTAS, in which she turns into a hulking rage monster that is not in the least bit subtle. That's the kind of tradeoff that makes narrative sense; sure, Taylor can make herself immune to a decent number of powers, but she has to completely abandon all chance of anonymity and welcome in any cape in the city to the fight.
Hmm, tags tend to be invented on an as-needed basis to cope with new capabilities, so I'm not convinced they should fall under the Shaping umbrella. Thematically, it doesn't make sense. The whole purpose of a Shaping defense Charm is that the Exalt is going: "This is who I am. I cannot be changed. No one can force me to be other than I wish to be," and reality acquiescing to that desire.Cytokinesis said:
From an in-game perspective, I'd write Regent as a kind of targeted Crippling effect, subtracting from the dice pool of one or more enemies, depending on how he focuses his attention.Chronic said:
Trickster's teleportation is pretty much Shaping by definition, as going from one point to another without traveling the distance between them is the province of Sorcery alone, and Sorcery is always a Shaping effect, it's why no Spell based on twisting the body of the Lunar works when they've been tattoed, including otherwise helpful Spells like Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. On the other hand, it means that things like Blood of Boiling Oil doesn't work either, so it's not all bad.
All Charms that grant increased/instant movement still works on the assumption that you actually travel the distance or find a different path that lets you travel it more quickly, which is rather different, conceptually speaking.
Finally, AoE Shaping defenses work on the idea that you make the area work as per the laws of Creation, or the Primordial/Void you serve, and only Oramos really has a concept like that of having alternate worlds you can interact with, so a power that works on that concept that runs into a Charm like Chaos-Repelling Pattern just plain doesn't function.
Shaping defenses can be considered a form of Perfect Defense, you see.
@Orm:
No, that's the purpose of Integrity Charms, Shaping defenses are more like 'this is the way things function, and I accept no substitutes.'
All Charms that grant increased/instant movement still works on the assumption that you actually travel the distance or find a different path that lets you travel it more quickly, which is rather different, conceptually speaking.
Finally, AoE Shaping defenses work on the idea that you make the area work as per the laws of Creation, or the Primordial/Void you serve, and only Oramos really has a concept like that of having alternate worlds you can interact with, so a power that works on that concept that runs into a Charm like Chaos-Repelling Pattern just plain doesn't function.
Shaping defenses can be considered a form of Perfect Defense, you see.
@Orm:
No, that's the purpose of Integrity Charms, Shaping defenses are more like 'this is the way things function, and I accept no substitutes.'
I think we just have to agree to disagree then, because I definitely see teleporting someone as affecting their body in a manner that forces them to hand away some of their agency. Remember, Taylor is outside fate, which means she's running largely on her own rules and physics. There is a lot of wiggle room for interpretation there, but there has to be some sort of interface translating effects either way into the respective physics.Orm Embar said:
How lenient/harsh that filter is up to logic, but a teleportation effect like that would probably be shaping in Creation, and so might be here too.
He puppeteers their body by manipulating their central nervous system, I think. It takes him a while to establish full control, but he can cause targeted spasms by making peoples' neurons fire.Odysseus2099 said:
Arthur Hansen
Author of no Authority.
- Location
- Utah, behind the Zion Curtain.
No, that's basically saying 'anything I can't easily slot somewhere else is always shaping' which is its on problems.Odysseus2099 said:
"I poison you at long range!" is shaping.... when it doesn't really have to be.
Teleporting does not violate the mystical laws and understanding of Creation. Teleporting is a known thing. Teleporting something is not automatically shaping.
Nah, Regent works on the Servitude keyword.Odysseus2099 said:
Of course it isn't, it's just a Poison keyworded effect that lacks the Touch keyword.arthurh3535 said:
(Hazard laughs at this idea.)arthurh3535 said:
Teleporting is a known thing in Creation, that's true.
All true teleportation tricks are Sorcery effects, which is explicitly Shaping in nature, so yes, teleportation is a Shaping effect.
In Creation, sure. Sorcery is playing with the underlying patterns of existence, re-weaving the tangled skein of Creation into something more to the user's liking. But this isn't Creation; teleportation is available to a great many people, and doesn't require warping the fabric of the world or an hour long incantation... it's just a parahuman ability, like any other.Hazard said:
I think you're mistaking Shaping defenses for actual Shaping, here. Chaos-Repelling Pattern resists the Wyld's attempts to warp reality. A Shaping defense doesn't mean you get to decide how reality works, it means that other people don't. Basically, you're preventing enemies from hitting the tilda key, opening the console, and hitting the kill command or turning you into a rabbit.Hazard said:
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
*coughs* But teleportation does exist in exalted. In both martial arts (short range and done to one's self), spells (with longer range, miles I believe), and greater anima power (journey sidereal greater anima power hits allies in range and goes ANYWHERE)....
So, yeah... teleportation isn't an unknown shaping effect.
So, yeah... teleportation isn't an unknown shaping effect.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
"Does this power do something through direct reality-warping bullshit that cannot be adequately defended against or cured through other means?" If yes, then it's Shaping. If no, then probably not.
Sand Through Fingers Defence? Not Shaping, it affects nothing but the character themselves. No need to defend.
Mind-Hand Manipulation? Not Shaping, it can be defended against through DVs. No need for an absolute defence.
Seeing Is Blindness? Shaping, because it's not a Crippling effect (as blindness would traditionally be). There needs to be a cure.
Exceptions come when the power can be defended against through other, non-absolute means, but results in instant death if it actually hits. Stuff like "I touch you and you die/turn into jello/are torn apart from the inside by a thousand snarling hounds" - you can dodge that, but if it hits you fall over dead, which isn't fun or heroic, so it's Shaping and can be shrugged off by Integrity-Protecting Prana and similar.
Basically, because Shaping is a stupidly broad keyword ("do shit with magic" gee whiz), it is best defined by the things that defend against it. Should an effect be perfectly and freely blocked by Integrity-Protecting Prana for a whole day? If so, it's Shaping. If not, it's not.
Infernals suffers from a stupid degree of Shaping oversaturation, to the point that 2/5 of their perfect defenses have been given it. An Infernal turns into shadows to dodge, that's Shaping, but Abyssals can do the exact same thing without the keyword. An Infernal changes their appearance, that's Shaping (and an Illusion, somehow), but a seven-foot tall Solar can disguise herself as an obese midget without the keyword. An Infernal crafts incredibly quickly or without tools, that's Shaping, but Solars can do the same - faster - without the keyword. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. What is going to defend against being built faster, exactly?
In any case, Trickster's teleportation can be avoided by using cover (which you can, in game terms, stunt into existence), or just being too fast for him to react, and even if you're hit it's not an instakill. Therefore, no Shaping effect.
Sand Through Fingers Defence? Not Shaping, it affects nothing but the character themselves. No need to defend.
Mind-Hand Manipulation? Not Shaping, it can be defended against through DVs. No need for an absolute defence.
Seeing Is Blindness? Shaping, because it's not a Crippling effect (as blindness would traditionally be). There needs to be a cure.
Exceptions come when the power can be defended against through other, non-absolute means, but results in instant death if it actually hits. Stuff like "I touch you and you die/turn into jello/are torn apart from the inside by a thousand snarling hounds" - you can dodge that, but if it hits you fall over dead, which isn't fun or heroic, so it's Shaping and can be shrugged off by Integrity-Protecting Prana and similar.
Basically, because Shaping is a stupidly broad keyword ("do shit with magic" gee whiz), it is best defined by the things that defend against it. Should an effect be perfectly and freely blocked by Integrity-Protecting Prana for a whole day? If so, it's Shaping. If not, it's not.
Infernals suffers from a stupid degree of Shaping oversaturation, to the point that 2/5 of their perfect defenses have been given it. An Infernal turns into shadows to dodge, that's Shaping, but Abyssals can do the exact same thing without the keyword. An Infernal changes their appearance, that's Shaping (and an Illusion, somehow), but a seven-foot tall Solar can disguise herself as an obese midget without the keyword. An Infernal crafts incredibly quickly or without tools, that's Shaping, but Solars can do the same - faster - without the keyword. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. What is going to defend against being built faster, exactly?
In any case, Trickster's teleportation can be avoided by using cover (which you can, in game terms, stunt into existence), or just being too fast for him to react, and even if you're hit it's not an instakill. Therefore, no Shaping effect.
True, but a standard explanation for Worm tricks is 'alternate universe shenanigans.' Alternate universe shenanigans are outright impossible in Creation without it being Shaping in some way, therefore Shaping defenses would defend against it.Orm Embar said:
Chaos-Repelling Pattern is pretty clear in its text that it enforces the laws of Creation within the area of effect, and it doesn't matter if you are in the Wyld, in the Underworld or the world body of a Primordial. It's not that you are preventing enemies from hitting the tilde key and opening the console, it's that you are running on a closed system and they can't even get to a keyboard.
Shaping, mind you, is a screwed up keyword that badly needs to be either redefined or needs to be deleted from most of the Charms that have it.
That is the explicit definition of Shaping actually.Border42 said:
Of course, Shaping defenses don't counter getting punched. After all, Creation knows how to resolve getting punched, and if you get punched and you have something like Integrity Protecting Prana up you get punched as per the laws of Creation.
This just means that every relevant trait to the punch gets translated, so instead of, say 'so much impulse and energy is delivered to a piece of the body this large' you could get 'this attack has a presoak value of X, calculate from there.'