Fate/Recursive Wisdom (Fate/Stay Night)

Then…

First step, surpass the speed of sound.

Second step, erase the distance that stood between me and my foe.

Third step, unleash an attack that could shatter the enemy's sword in a single blow.

This, the power of the martial arts of the ancient Celts, unseen for nearly two millennia. The Vantage of Swiftness that carried me forward, the Swordbreaker that destroyed the opponent's weapon. With this, I claim victory!

Swifter than lightning, I struck —

THWACK

— and blinked up at the ceiling.
.......Oh my gosh he adores using hyperboles just like Shirou. No wait in this AU Shirou probably learned those from him.
Damn it. Fujimura Taiga was a prodigy of kendo, but even she had nothing on the likes of a Servant. If I couldn't even beat her, what chance would I have against my true enemy? Taking on such a monster with skills and performance that couldn't even best an ordinary human kendo master…
I mean Taiga is bullshit- I mean even she.........oh. OH HO HO I just had an idea for what might happen in the future.

When MC-kun gets Medea they use Taiga as a puppet/doll/drone. Give her a real katana with some mystery behind it (pretty easy considering Caster is a caster), enhance her body with magecraft and now you have a swordsman who could keep up with servants.
"Actually," I said cheerily, "you're not that far off! Well, if you're up for hearing all of the gritty details, then feel free to stay and listen." I turned back to Shirou. "So, Emiya, let's pick up from our previous lesson. I said last time that there are particular areas of sensitivity that will respond to the proper stimulation, but there's one in particular that should drive your partner absolutely wild."
Pfft this guy is great.
"I-I-I couldn't possibly! Oh, what kind of woman do you take me for! W-with me, Shirou would never…! And besides that, it's not proper! I'm his guardian, after all! It's just not my place to…!"
Don't deny the possibility for a Taiga route! Its possible!

A certain blonde-haired girl king would definitely appreciate the pillow techniques I'd just mentioned, when the opportunity arose for him to employ them on her. More than Shirou would appreciate her own knowledge of how to please a man, I'd wager.
I'm still somewhat confused. So is he a time traveler? Did he meet Saber whilst she lived here during the 4th grail war? Is he actually an SI?

Hmmm need more info.
The Sakura route would mean something had gone horribly wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
Bruh, The sakura route can happen (she deserves some fucking love damn it!) but not become a complete and total clusterfuck.
At the end of the day, there was just too hard a limit to what I could teach him and how much help I could give him. Without the pressure of a Grail War to accelerate his growth and fill out his arsenal with truly incredible armaments, it seemed this was as far as my own skill could take him.
Well its still better than nothing
"Let's take a look at your Reinforcement next, shall we?"
Wonder if Shirou can pull off that trick that Miyuverse could with the measuring tape?
 
Bruh, The sakura route can happen (she deserves some fucking love damn it!) but not become a complete and total clusterfuck.
If I remember correctly the inciting feature of the Sakura route is that Shirou's increased attention and concern gives Sakura hope Shirou reciprocates her feelings for him. So, Sakura starts to believe she does have inherent value as a person. As a result, all her long-buried resentment and spite begins bubbling up because she no longer believes her fate was/is inevitable or deserved.

The problem with the Sakura Route in this story is that our SI has planted himself in the Emiya household and we have no indication that Sakura ever began coming by. In which case, Sakura should remain a dead-eyed, failed experiment.
 
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If I remember correctly the inciting feature of the Sakura route is that Shirou's increased attention and concern gives Sakura hope Shirou reciprocates her feelings for him. So, Sakura starts to believe she does have inherent value as a person. As a result, all her long-buried resentment and spite begins bubbling up because she no longer believes her fate was/is inevitable or deserved.

The problem with the Sakura Route in this story is that our SI has planted himself in the Emiya household and we have no indication that Sakura ever began coming by. In which case, Sakura should remain a dead-eyed, failed experiment.
Yeah I know that but at the end of the day its completely fucked up if Sakura has to live the rest of her life as an abused dead eyed victim who has to live with a piece of shit and a literal fucking monsters.

Ohhh well that makes more sense.
 
Yeah I know that but at the end of the day its completely fucked up if Sakura has to live the rest of her life as an abused dead eyed victim who has to live with a piece of shit and a literal fucking monsters.


Ohhh well that makes more sense.
I completely agree Sakura's fate is fucking awful. That alone is one of the primary reasons the Heaven's Feel route is my favorite of the three.

Though from an SI's perspective the Sakura route also involves Sakura becoming both a mass murderer and an eldritch abomination.
 
Though from an SI's perspective the Sakura route also involves Sakura becoming both a mass murderer and an eldritch abomination.
A couple of people on FFnet pointed out Sakura stuff too, like Yukio is ignoring her or just because his narration phrases things a certain way he doesn't care about her, and even that particular line about the Sakura route got some comments, too.

The thing that perhaps wasn't conveyed properly and maybe should have been clearer: no matter how flippantly he says it, the Sakura route is considered a failure state because it means everything is on fire. The Sakura route means everything has spiraled out of his control, his dearest youngest sister is now a mass murdering monster, Shirou is probably two steps away from self-destructing every second of every day, and the most dangerous form of King Arthur is playing guard dog for the manifestation of a creature that is just barely shy of a Beast of Disaster.

The Sakura route isn't, "Oh, hey, this tortured wallflower is finally finding some happiness," it's, "Oh god, we're all gonna die!"
I completely agree Sakura's fate is fucking awful. That alone is one of the primary reasons the Heaven's Feel route is my favorite of the three.
See, Sakura's route jumped the shark for me. There's a point where a character's fate is just so awful that you stop feeling sorry for them and start losing immersion in the story. I'm not saying she doesn't deserve love or whatever. I'm saying that Nasu and (later on, in Zero) Urobuchi tried a little too hard to push that, "See? Isn't this terrible? Isn't this awful? Don't you want to rescue her? Isn't she worthy of sympathy?"

Put it another way, it's pointless cruelty for the sake of cruelty. Zouken torturing her isn't the actions of some depraved individual who has an understandable reason, no matter how despicable, it comes off to me as "Zouken needs to do this so that Sakura can be a broken girl in need of love." Compared to, say, Marida Cruz (Elpeo Ple 12) in Gundam Unicorn, whose backstory is just as horrible, but who was abused and mistreated out of greed and sadism, not just because her backstory said she needed to be.

Maybe I'm misremembering a little. I read HF all of once, so I don't remember it clearly. But even still, for most of his appearances, Zouken struck me as the guy doing evil shit for no real reason other than "I need to pass the time, I guess." And that makes neither him nor his victims compelling.
 
The Sakura route isn't, "Oh, hey, this tortured wallflower is finally finding some happiness," it's, "Oh god, we're all gonna die!"
Just to be clear, please confirm that this is entirely discontinuous with "Oh, hey, this tortured wallflower is finally finding some happiness, therefore, we are all gonna die!"

Because if that is true then I am legally required to re-imagine Sakura as a recolor of Raven from Teen Titans.

:V
 
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Just to be clear, please confirm that this is entirely discontinuous with "Oh, hey, this tortured wallflower is finally finding some happiness, therefore, we are all gonna die!"

Because if that is true then I am legally required to re-imagine Sakura as a recolor of Raven from Teen Titans.
They're not mutually exclusive outcomes, but they're not necessarily causal, either.

I think another problem with Sakura's story arc in HF is that she's generally...not redeemed? I mean, HF shows how shitty her life is, then she takes a dive off the deep end, decides, "I'm a monster, so I guess I'll keep being a monster," and then the end is, "Well, Angra Mainyu is gone, now, so she's as good a person as we all thought she was in the previous routes." Like, fucking what? Angra Mainyu is not the source of Sakura's issues, nor is his influence the sole factor in her deciding to basically unleash an omnicidal god of darkness onto the world. I don't remember clearly whether she realized that's where her actions were taking her, but when the person who's having a dark, edgy moment declares, "I'm going to burn down the world," you have to treat them a lot differently if they happen to have the nuclear codes and are putting in targeting coordinates than if they've got a bundle of matches and a few twigs.

Instead, Sakura gets Rule Breaker'd, Angra Mainyu is destroyed, and all she needs to get back to normal is some Shirou loving. I can understand that a lot of people loved HF, but Sakura wasn't redeemed, she was let off the hook. That's why I prefer Normal over True. Because the girl who took away so many other people's happy endings doesn't get hers, either.

Yes, I know I'm being reductionist, but that's just my feelings on the matter.

Anyway.
EDIT: Okay, wow, it's been a while, and I let my frustrations with how her character's backstory is handled color my perceptions way too much. HF is still my least favorite route, Sakura my least favorite of the original love interests. But just because I'm not a fan of how she's handled and everything doesn't mean that I think she deserves any of what happened to her or that none of it is tragic.

To be clear, Yukio isn't disinterested or blasé about what's happening to Sakura. We just haven't gotten to the parts where he shows how much he cares or what he intends to do about her circumstances. That's the thing that I think needs to get through. Yukio is a SI, sure, but he isn't me, because I built him out of Nasuverse rules and mechanics.

To go into that a little more...
The reason Yukio is even a SI in the first place is because his Origin was "Append." As a result, the personality and memories of his previous life tagged along when his soul attached to his body. There's a few more things to that which will get revealed later on, but this is why Yukio wasn't chosen as the heir, either. His original elemental alignment was "Water." However, his past self carried the Origin "Refract," and the resultant fusion during the last days of HGW4 gave Yukio an additional "Wind" element.

So Yukio, you see, is a mishmash of the fragments of who he was in his past life with the seven-year-old boy who was Tohsaka Rin's brother. The reason why he's fragmented is also for later, but it makes "Yukio" the dominant part of the fusion, even if his past self's impulses, personality, and preferences aren't nearly as weak as that implies.
So, you see, all of Yukio's meta memories are viewed through the lens of his own life and priorities.
 
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And lets be real here, saving Sakura is going to be one of the hardest things to accomplish, not just because she needs to deal with all repercussions of the psychological and physical abuse she went through, but also because Zouken.

Man was evil and self-centered as fuck, but he had lot of back-ups to ensure his plan would go through, and power to back it up.
 
and then the end is, "Well, Angra Mainyu is gone, now, so she's as good a person as we all thought she was in the previous routes." Like, fucking what?
-
snip-
Sakura wasn't redeemed, she was let off the hook.
I know what you mean!
Sakura at the end of HF is just Sakura having coincidentally regained enough psycho-socio-emotional buffer space to reinstate the wall of shirou-centric delusions she was upholding in all of the other routes in order to convincingly fake a mask of normality to everyone else and herself!

Like, I get it, this is distressingly relatable to half the goddamn nasuverse fandom, and an actual fact of daily fucking survival for a full quarter of the fandom, but on the other hand, Sakura almost ended the world over a temper tantrum, and has shown every indication of being willing to have exactly the same temper tantrum over exactly the same thing and intentionally seek out a method to doom the entire world for exactly the same reason with exactly the same lack of empathy or remorse!

That's not a person! That's a "I'm 14 and this is deep" revenge fic protagonist!
 
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To my understanding she wasn't really herself during Her evil sakura faze, seemed like a complete personality shift to me, and required rule breaker and rin hugging her to draw out the real sakura. as far as i'm aware angra mainyu had corrupted her or partially merged personalities with her or something.
 
I know what you mean!
Sakura at the end of HF is just Sakura having coincidentally regained enough psycho-socio-emotional buffer space to reinstate the wall of shirou-centric delusions she was upholding in all of the other routes in order to convincingly fake a mask of normality to everyone else and herself!

Like, I get it, this is distressingly relatable to half the goddamn nasuverse fandom, and an actual fact of daily fucking survival for a full quarter of the fandom, but on the other hand, Sakura almost ended the world over a temper tantrum, and has shown every indication of being willing to have exactly the same temper tantrum over exactly the same thing and intentionally seek out a method to doom the entire world for exactly the same reason with exactly the same lack of empathy or remorse!

That's not a person! That's a "I'm 14 and this is deep" revenge fic protagonist!
The thing is, Sakura's relationship with Shirou is not healthy. It sounds sweet, with undertones of horrifying, that he's the only ray of light in a bleak and otherwise meaningless life, but it's really more like codependence than romance. She needs him to feel normal, to feel like a person with worth, and in her route, he's the same with her.

But there's a difference between "this person makes me want to be my best self" and "this person's love is the only way I can be a functioning human being." The Sakura route romance is very much the latter.

And, grain of salt, sure, I only minored in psychology, I didn't get a degree in it and I'm not a practicing therapist, but that? Is very much something she should get therapy for, to detangle her definition of "happiness" from a specific individual and learn how to be happy without him. A long term romance with Shirou is definitely not in the best interests of her mental and emotional well-being.
 
The thing is, Sakura's relationship with Shirou is not healthy. It sounds sweet, with undertones of horrifying, that he's the only ray of light in a bleak and otherwise meaningless life, but it's really more like codependence than romance. She needs him to feel normal, to feel like a person with worth, and in her route, he's the same with her.

But there's a difference between "this person makes me want to be my best self" and "this person's love is the only way I can be a functioning human being." The Sakura route romance is very much the latter.

And, grain of salt, sure, I only minored in psychology, I didn't get a degree in it and I'm not a practicing therapist, but that? Is very much something she should get therapy for, to detangle her definition of "happiness" from a specific individual and learn how to be happy without him. A long term romance with Shirou is definitely not in the best interests of her mental and emotional well-being.
Eh, that's precisely why Sakura and her ship is so popular though. People just loved that kind of tragic and unhealthy relationship. More drama and excitement for everyone to watch.

On the other hand, who wants to watch a therapy session? They're goddamn boring! Yearly long hours of psycho-analyzing and mental gymnastics are a bore to watch. Sure, Sakura and Shirou could improve their mental health to something resembling a normal human being, but where's the fun in that?
 
I love your characterisation of the main character! Looking forward to more!
 
Eh, that's precisely why Sakura and her ship is so popular though. People just loved that kind of tragic and unhealthy relationship. More drama and excitement for everyone to watch.

On the other hand, who wants to watch a therapy session? They're goddamn boring! Yearly long hours of psycho-analyzing and mental gymnastics are a bore to watch. Sure, Sakura and Shirou could improve their mental health to something resembling a normal human being, but where's the fun in that?
The Sakura Route isn't popular though. Sakura's is the least popular ship.
 
Speaking as a fan of the Heaven's Feel route, its not because Shirou/Sakura is my OTP, but because its reveals and Fate/Zero's don't stop being true in the other two.

It is the only route that conclusively deals with Angra Maiyu, it is the only route that even remotely deals with Makiri. And it is the only route that doesn't leave Sakura as an empty shell of a person waiting for the day Zouken gets bored and either eats or body-jacks her.
Saber fades away in every ending but one.
Rin always ends up at the clock tower.
Illya is always doomed to an early death.
Only Sakura's ultimate fate changes.

And its not like Shirou's other ends are any less psychologically offputting.
In Fate he obsesses over a girl he knew for three weeks in high school for his entire life. Possibly to the point where he checks out of reality so hard he physically travels to another dimension.
In UBW, he actively pursues becoming EMIYA in the belief that his values and the good he will do are and will be worth it.
 
Each route in F/SN is always story of two people: in Fate it is Shirou and Saber, in UBW it's Shirou and EMIYA, and in HF it is Shirou and Sakura. Each of them has a good end point, and whether or not they achieve it depends of the route and the end.

For Shirou, in Fate and UBW he stays true to his ideals but has them tempered, leading to a healthier path for him. In HF he renounces those ideals for the sake of saving a person. After every route his chances of becoming EMIYA are almost zero.

For Saber, she finds peace and continues forward in Fate, possibly in UBW Good Ending, in others she doesn't and keeps her deal with Alaya, trying to achieve her wish.

For EMIYA, in Fate and UBW he gives up his plans of killing Emiya, seeing a chance that he will not walk down the same path he did. In HF he doesn't believe that, but sees that sacrificing himself to give Shirou a chance is the path with highest chance of success.

For Sakura, in HF she is saved but at a high cost. In Fate and UBW, her final fate is left open (unless there's some extra lore I'm not aware off, like how no matter what route it is, Waver and Rin will dismantle the Grail and FHGW system after the 5th War, putting an end to the threat of Angra Mainyu permanently).
In Fate he obsesses over a girl he knew for three weeks in high school for his entire life. Possibly to the point where he checks out of reality so hard he physically travels to another dimension.
In UBW, he actively pursues becoming EMIYA in the belief that his values and the good he will do are and will be worth it.
Those are both incorrect. In Fate he, eventually, manages to achieve status as a hero that when he dies he gets accepted to Avalon. In UBW he doesn't pursue to become EMIYA, him becoming EMIYA after any of the routes is miniscule. He knows that he cannot save everyone but he will try to save as many as he can.
 
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I think that HF fans like the route so much because its the one closest to traditional storytelling: the damsel is saved, the world is saved, the evildoers get their comeuppance, and so on and so forth. HF gives you a more familiar sense of catharsis than the other routes, which are almost all so melancholic in the end. That doesn't mean that one route is better than another, likes and dislikes are subjective as hell, but it might explain the zeal.

None of the relationships in the novel are healthy. All the character are horribly broken even if we just look at the main ships. I mean, Shirou being a special flavour of crazy is a literal plot point.
Honestly they could all use a few years of therapy. A few centuries in Archer's case.
 
A long term romance with Shirou is definitely not in the best interests of her mental and emotional well-being.

i mean, the fact is that both Shirou and Sakura are traumatized, which leaves permanent marks. The fact that they'd end up together is them being mutually co-dependant.

The Sane One would be Rin, helping the two to be better. But unfortunately we never see that trio pairing except in fanfics.


As for a possible explanation for why he hasn't acted before this - he has had no possible options for how to extract the crest worms safely. And taking action against Zoken is guaranteed to make things worse. The best he can do is knock some sense into Shinji… or at least give him the necessary Shovel Talk.
(Medea, on the other hand… now she has options)
 
Caster, at least in the main routes, lacks reasons to help. Arguably most of the plot of heavens feel could have been sidestepped just by getting Medea on side. There's a reason why she's restricted to antagonist roles in the fate and UBW routes.
But here, we now from the prologue that she's going to end up as Yukio's Servant.
 
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