Ethically questionable magic

It's a result. Because if you accept that there is no 'one' answer, you can cool down the heat in the flamewars.
...
There is an 'if' in my statement ...
Indeed. But still, for one to judge correctly, context is everything. Aside from very specific forms of magic, there's very little that can be considered 100% evil with no possible morally acceptable use. Mostly, consent is the deciding factor for these forms of magic, by most ethical standards.
 
I actually think (aside from the varieties that deal with enslavement of souls or similar acts) necromancy can be sort of okay in a lot of settings. Like, animating a zombie or skeleton? Stitching together a flesh golem? As long as you're just using the body and animating with arcane magic, I think the only reasons not to do so are to do with cultural taboos on messing with the dead and the like.

Sure, but I don't think you can just dismiss that last part. Like, most cultures don't regard a dead body as just a conveniently human-shaped object that that sits there doing nothing. Even in DnD the body clearly retains a connection to the soul even after death, so desecrating it by turning it into your minion probably isn't cool.
 
Sure, but I don't think you can just dismiss that last part. Like, most cultures don't regard a dead body as just a conveniently human-shaped object that that sits there doing nothing. Even in DnD the body clearly retains a connection to the soul even after death, so desecrating it by turning it into your minion probably isn't cool.

Not to nitpick a setting detail, but isn't the very definition of death in D&D happen to be the soul leaving the body? I mean sure you can pull a soul back into it's original body with resurrection magic and the like but outside of that I've always figured that messing with the body really didn't do anything to the soul.

And besides, standard points of industry and stuff still apply. The way I see it, a cultural taboo against necromancy is kind of silly when you could create a fairly sensible society just by using skeletons and stuff for manual labour rather than relying on serfdom...
 
Sure, but I don't think you can just dismiss that last part. Like, most cultures don't regard a dead body as just a conveniently human-shaped object that that sits there doing nothing. Even in DnD the body clearly retains a connection to the soul even after death, so desecrating it by turning it into your minion probably isn't cool.
It does? I mean, yes, Speak With Dead, and various revival spells, but that connection is likely sympathetic magic more than anything else. The Law of Contagion is an old, old idea, and can easily be applied to things other than those spells. It's seen as a factor in the material components for certain spells, for instance. So it's probably safe to assume that's the reason behind it.

For those unaware, sympathetic magic is the idea that you can use similarities between objects to link them. It's what's behind voodoo dolls and the like. The Law of Contagion is the idea that things that were once connected maintain a sort of connection. This applies to rocks as much as a body and a soul.
 
Not to nitpick a setting detail, but isn't the very definition of death in D&D happen to be the soul leaving the body? I mean sure you can pull a soul back into it's original body with resurrection magic and the like but outside of that I've always figured that messing with the body really didn't do anything to the soul.
In DnD, creating an undead prevents resurrection of this person.
 
In DnD, creating an undead prevents resurrection of this person.
No, it prevents using the body to revive them. You can still do it with the right spells. Or by breaking them out of whatever afterlife they ended up in, if you really want to.
 
Indeed. But still, for one to judge correctly, context is everything. Aside from very specific forms of magic, there's very little that can be considered 100% evil with no possible morally acceptable use. Mostly, consent is the deciding factor for these forms of magic, by most ethical standards.
What about the cases where you cannot get consent? Healing someone mentally impaired, freeing the soul imprisioned in an undead?
Context runs into the problem of 'knows everything pertaining to the situation', which is rare (one of the reasons broad category judgements seem to be prevalent).
 
No, it prevents using the body to revive them. You can still do it with the right spells. Or by breaking them out of whatever afterlife they ended up in, if you really want to.
Nitpick: I used 'resurrection', not 'true resurrection' or 'wish'. It also prevents use of Reincarnate. But no one ever accused WotC of thorough proofreading.
 
What about the cases where you cannot get consent? Healing someone mentally impaired, freeing the soul imprisioned in an undead?
Context runs into the problem of 'knows everything pertaining to the situation', which is rare (one of the reasons broad category judgements seem to be prevalent).
Then it depends on whether they wanted to be fixed or freed. Basically, did they hate you for what you did afterwards, or did they thank you? On that one, you're risking making things worse, though I can't say I wouldn't be willing to risk that in those cases.

And context is still important, even if you don't know it. You don't need to know everything, just enough. Go for the salient points of consent, intent, methodology, and results.
Nitpick: I used 'resurrection', not 'true resurrection' or 'wish'. It also prevents use of Reincarnate. But no one ever accused WotC of thorough proofreading.
Oh, aye. If they did, 3.5 Truespeakers wouldn't be quite as sh*t as they are. My understanding is that there were a lot of typos in their section of the book they were in, as well as unclear writing.
 
Oh, aye. If they did, 3.5 Truespeakers wouldn't be quite as sh*t as they are. My understanding is that there were a lot of typos in their section of the book they were in, as well as unclear writing.
... That was cruel. You made me remember. And inventing a mechanism that scales twice as fast for the enemy as for the character (monster CL versus Truespeak skill) for the main mechanic of the character ...
Stopping derail.
 
And if the act of freeing them affects their mind?
...The act of freeing them would unavoidably affect their mind, that's the point. Now, if you mean 'affects their mind in ways that makes them inclined to agree', that's inevitable. If you improve someone's situation, by their standards, they are going to thank you. If you threw in mind-affecting sh*t in addition to fixing the other stuff, then we run into that consent thing again. If all you're doing is resetting to the default position, then it depends on how they feel in the default position.

But the thing is, unless you're REALLY good at it, that's inevitably going to leave traces in most magic systems. Even altering their brain-chemistry leaves traces, if hard-to-spot ones.
... That was cruel. You made me remember. And inventing a mechanism that scales twice as fast for the enemy as for the character (monster CL versus Truespeak skill) for the main mechanic of the character ...
Stopping derail.
Tried to build one, did ya?
 
Then it depends on whether they wanted to be fixed or freed. Basically, did they hate you for what you did afterwards, or did they thank you? On that one, you're risking making things worse, though I can't say I wouldn't be willing to risk that in those cases.

And context is still important, even if you don't know it. You don't need to know everything, just enough. Go for the salient points of consent, intent, methodology, and results.
So, basically, best judgement call based on the morality(*) of the one performing the action. Where best judgment call is subjective.
That also applies to the decision to acquire such means (learning the spells).
(*) I mean the basic framework underlying decisions
 
Tried to build one, did ya?
Bought the book, read the section, thought 'why not', started reading the forums for the insane interaction you can get (or not), found the discussions ... I mean, I played multi-classed characters for rp reasons, but if the class mechanics actively stop you from using your class features - where's the point???
 
So, basically, best judgement call based on the morality(*) of the one performing the action. Where best judgment call is subjective.
That also applies to the decision to acquire such means (learning the spells).
(*) I mean the basic framework underlying decisions
We're dealing with morality, so it's inevitably going to be somewhat subjective. Judgement calls are made, and you live with the results. Pretty much true of every scenario, really.

As for acquiring such means, passive study can be workable, even if you don't have a lot of experience with it. If you can practice in ways that harm no one, then even better. Get a pet mouse, mind-control it to dance or whatever, and feed it treats after every practice session. Or find someone who wants to learn to resist those kinds of magic, and practice on them. Find the methods that have the least negative impact, and make up for whatever minor impact there is in ways which are acceptable to the person you're practicing on and yourself.
 
As for acquiring such means, passive study can be workable, even if you don't have a lot of experience with it. If you can practice in ways that harm no one, then even better. Get a pet mouse, mind-control it to dance or whatever, and feed it treats after every practice session. Or find someone who wants to learn to resist those kinds of magic, and practice on them. Find the methods that have the least negative impact, and make up for whatever minor impact there is in ways which are acceptable to the person you're practicing on and yourself.
You will still find people telling you it's evil because principle (theirs). That might become problematic if you do blood magic in WH(40K or Fantasy) or soul magic on a plane where gods frown upon that.
That makes the life of a planeswalker more interesting.
 
You will still find people telling you it's evil because principle (theirs). That might become problematic if you do blood magic in WH(40K or Fantasy) or soul magic on a plane where gods frown upon that.
That makes the life of a planeswalker more interesting.
You'll find people telling you that eating shrimp is an abomination, if you look hard enough.

I'm giving logical examples of ethical uses, ones that address the main reasons behind the distaste and distrust of these forms of magic. That's really the best you can do. If people aren't logical about use of these kinds of magic, and aren't willing to admit there are acceptable uses, that's a bias I can do nothing to fix.
 
I would say that the definition of "evil" is culturally-defined and whether that act is committed by magic or by non-magical means doesn't matter.

Using mind-control magic isn't evil because it's mind-control magic, it's evil because controlling someone's mind without their consent is evil. Raising someone up as an intelligent undead servant is evil because slavery is evil. That's analyzing results, not actions.

The only way magic itself can be evil (and I'm assuming, here, a relatively objective, external definition of evil, not a subjective "this in-universe cultural group calls it evil" way) is if:

(1) The defined metaphysics of the setting say so. In Ravenloft, casting a necromantic magic spell calls for a powers check. It doesn't matter if you were casting speak with dead to identify a murderer, casting feign death to help an innocent person escape from a ravenous monster, or using death spell to destroy the goblin horde that were in the process of slaughtering a village. Grab the dice and roll the powers check. And the modifiers for that check will be even worse if the results of the spell constitute a different evil act on top of the spellcasting.

(2) The initial conditions of creating the magic are themselves evil. If you have to use the blood of a infant murdered with your own hands to power the spell, the spell is evil. That isn't changed whether you use that spell to produce "good" results. If you use that spell to then banish the demon that was going to destroy the kingdom, now you're balancing the initial evil of the spell against the good results, and the ethical argument wanders into much-trod and generally boring HMMHD territory, waffling about ends and means, and so on. But the spell itself is evil because of that initial condition, in a way that using bat guano to cast fireball is not.
 
But the spell itself is evil because of that initial condition, in a way that using bat guano to cast fireball is not.
Well, maybe if you got the bat guano by ripping it out of a sentient bat's digestive track while it was still alive, killing it in the process, they could be similar, but that's just nitpicking.
 
The protagonist of my PMMM quest uses a lot of mind magic. And yes, this causes debates about the morality of her actions. But as said, one has to analyse what she's using it for.

Is it evil to use mind magic to cure someone's depression? What about other mental, emotional and/or social disabilities/conditions? What if they don't ant to be cured? What if the condition harms others, like kleptomania, or anti-social personality disorder? What about using mind magic to prevent discrimination? If you need information from someone, is it better to torture them in hopes that they'll tell you the truth, or to use magic to discover the truth? Is removing someone's agency magically worse than imprisoning them? Or holding a gun to their head? Is using magic to reform someone worse than killing them? Is it wrong to alter someone's mind to remove their ability to murder or rape? Would it not be more evil to let them keep those abilities? Is it wrong to force a criminal to repair the damage they caused with their crimes? If someone is a guard, is it worse to kill them, to bash their head until they lose consciousness, to drug them, or to temporarily make them magically willing to let you pass? Is it okay to magically alter someone's perception of you to be more accurate? etc.
 
The protagonist of my PMMM quest uses a lot of mind magic. And yes, this causes debates about the morality of her actions. But as said, one has to analyse what she's using it for.

Is it evil to use mind magic to cure someone's depression? What about other mental, emotional and/or social disabilities/conditions? What if they don't ant to be cured? What if the condition harms others, like kleptomania, or anti-social personality disorder? What about using mind magic to prevent discrimination? If you need information from someone, is it better to torture them in hopes that they'll tell you the truth, or to use magic to discover the truth? Is removing someone's agency magically worse than imprisoning them? Or holding a gun to their head? Is using magic to reform someone worse than killing them? Is it wrong to alter someone's mind to remove their ability to murder or rape? Would it not be more evil to let them keep those abilities? Is it wrong to force a criminal to repair the damage they caused with their crimes? If someone is a guard, is it worse to kill them, to bash their head until they lose consciousness, to drug them, or to temporarily make them magically willing to let you pass? Is it okay to magically alter someone's perception of you to be more accurate? etc.

Possibly, possibly, yes barring legal authority, possibly, yes, the latter, yes, possibly, possibly, yes, everyone has those abilities so no, yes without legal standing but it may be a net good on balance, and four cases of the actual ethical question lying in the determination that the guard is a viable enemy target. :p

But the next poster's answers will differ, which is why ethics are fun! :D
 
If you need information from someone, is it better to torture them in hopes that they'll tell you the truth, or to use magic to discover the truth?
Torture is fairly ineffective for information gathering.

As for everything else, it really depends on many factors, but most of what you cite is certainly at least in the grey space between the extremes, as most things are.

It helps that you're dealing with PMMM, which is a world that has been gamed to be a complete sh*t-hole by outside forces. Even the presence of Madokami doesn't entirely fix that. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
For those who are interested in reading fiction about this, Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician trilogy is a sustained exploration of the ethics around mind-reading magic, magic blocks, and essentially blood/death magic, where you gain power by draining others of theirs. One of the interesting things in the series is that
the "base" country you start in doesn't have black magic, and each protagonist basically fails to "resist the temptation" of learning black magic after encountering it. Each time, they decide that the costs of specifically them not learning it at that moment are too high (they might be enslaved, their country will be invaded, etc etc), and they intend to use it only "ethically". The "base" country in fact once possessed black magic knowledge but systematically wiped out any mention of it after a horrible misuse of black magic, thus leaving it vulnerable to attack many centuries later, which is a good addendum to @DezoPenguin's point about, perhaps, magic itself not being evil. After suffering a devastating invasion, their institutions have to decide how they intend to reintegrate black magic into their society. (The series seems to answer that they have to, but it's kinda a tentative answer because all of the societies that do have black magic in the series are.... really ethically troubling.)

I don't know that I had much to add to this discussion in terms of ideas, but I am starved for a conversation about these books if anyone has read them.
 
Possibly, possibly, yes barring legal authority, possibly, yes, the latter, yes, possibly, possibly, yes, everyone has those abilities so no, yes without legal standing but it may be a net good on balance, and four cases of the actual ethical question lying in the determination that the guard is a viable enemy target. :p

But the next poster's answers will differ, which is why ethics are fun! :D

They will, yes. I'm not saying that everyone has to agree. Merely that such things need to be considered before deciding that an entire branch of magic is automatically evil.

Torture is fairly ineffective for information gathering.

As for everything else, it really depends on many factors, but most of what you cite is certainly at least in the grey space between the extremes, as most things are.

It helps that you're dealing with PMMM, which is a world that has been gamed to be a complete sh*t-hole by outside forces. Even the presence of Madokami doesn't entirely fix that. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm aware of the ineffectiveness of torture. I tried to imply as such. But yes, otherwise you are generally right.
 
@Sereg: It also helps that Wishes in PMMM are semi-conceptual, and what, specifically, your protagonist ended up Wishing for was 'the ability to bring out the best in people', IIRC. There are ways to Monkey's Paw that kind of Wish, of course, but it does help mitigate the probability of horrible
occurrences and abuse of the powers in question, when they are all based around something like that.
 
Back
Top