Emperor of Zero (ZnT/Napoleon Bonaparte) Thread 2
- Thread starter Largo
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I think trueseeker is saying that since before Henretta died she said she wanted Louise to be her successor, cutting Louise off from her family would allow Napoleon to indirectly control the throne.
Of course, the major issue of this is that the only one who knows Henretta wants Louise to be her successor is Napoleon, as the princess was killed before she could put that into motion.
Of course, the major issue of this is that the only one who knows Henretta wants Louise to be her successor is Napoleon, as the princess was killed before she could put that into motion.
- Location
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Unless that asshole has documents.... Truly Napoleons moral state is sickening as he is competent..NMS said:
IRL, this correlation is often a requirement to be successful in the politics game...Larekko12 said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
A truly repugnant state of affairs.Rufus Shinra said:
Not repugnant, utterly and completely logical: those people will be ready to go further than the moral ones to get that power. Don't forget either that a ruthless leader isn't always a bad thing for his or her country, because the world isn't a nice and happy MLP expy and some really bad things must sometimes be done. Hell, that's the very definition of leadership: choosing between two bad options, because you often can't choose a third answer.Larekko12 said:
So, as long as the bastard in power keeps his/her bastardness aimed towards other politicians while doing a good job, I don't care. Remember the famous List of everything to do as a Dark Lord: when you read it, you realize really quickly that life under such a Lord isn't as bad as one can think, as long as you're not a Hero (TM) or a power-hungry rival.
So... yeah, maybe he's a smug, amoral bastard, but if that's the kind of leader required for Tristania to survive among all the smug, amoral leaders of the other countries and factions out there, well... Let's be honest, Henrietta wouldn't have held for long without Louise "Deus Ex Void" de la Vallière, and in this fic, I don't think we'll see a lot of incompetence among the Powers That Be.
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
This I already know and understand.Rufus Shinra said:
Or if you not one of the many pawns offered up on sacrificial pedestal of the lord ambition. .
My problem with him is not that's he's merely a smug bastard making ruthless bastardy decisions. I fully understand that leaders have to make tough choices. The problem I have with him is that he's making amoral bastardly decisions for his own glorification, ambition, and ego to the point where they harm the people who are loyal to him, and put trust in him, and to which he is supposed to be nominally loyal to rather than for the benefit of the nation state of tristain. That I can see him offering Tristain up on a bloodstained pedastal to see his ambition pushed forth is something that makes me dislike him.
To be honest I find Vittorio's aim to commit a genocide in order to claim land for his people to survive an apocalypse more admirable than what Napoleon has done so far.
logiccosmic
the Prince of Word Crimes
- Location
- the Hague, formerly
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This.Rodyle said:
We get that you are butthurt over ~perfect pretty princess~ pushing up daisies.
We get it, man.
But you seem to think every good or successful leader has the noblest of intentions, and never ever would ever think about their own gratification. Reality: NOPE. Alexander the Great sure didn't want to spread happiness all over a huge chunk of the world; he wanted to conquer the shit out of it. Octavian wanted the title that got jacked for Julius. Charlemagne conquered this piss out of Europe like a CKII player because he had claims on half of it. Stop applying modern/postmodern western ethics to people they don't apply to.
TLDR version; Good leaders and rulers generally don't fart rainbows and sunshine.
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That's an insulting oversimplification and disparagement of myself rodyle.Rodyle said:
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- Little Rock, AR
Becuase he betrayed the army he was apart of, and she was the highest ranking person who died with a face and name that your meant to like. Becuase that death has symbolism behind showing the value placed upon others who are allied with him of favor him and juxtaposed to his ambition. Henrietta beyond being someone who place trust him and his competence was his partners best friend, someone she valued on par with family, and we saw how that affected Louise in a completely predictable manner. Arguably she is the strongest bond if not one of the strongest he has in this world. So you must act if Napoleon can do that to a friend for only this much what is wieght of that nation and it's people? He has a arranged and assured civil war with all the blood that implies so that he may seek his own ambition. I find that distasteful.ER5013 said:
Shikaze
Mecha-Musume Enthusiast
- Location
- Nantes, France
Henrietta was also a more than naive leader, and while ready to learn, would have been EATEN ALIVE by the like of the Pope or Joseph. yes, Napolen was self-serving, but he was ALSO thinking of the future of what is going to be, after all, HIS country (at least in his opinion). And letting a bad leader, because that's was she is compared to the rest, ruin his country or putt it in difficulty was not a good thing in napoleon's opinion.Larekko12 said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
That's apologism ignoring the fact that she was learning and had competent loyal aid that could only benefit from more aid and that Napoleon is already driving the country into worse postion while making himself beholden to the enemy.Shikaze said:
The man worked with Talleyrand, so it's obvious he doesn't really respect naïveté, good sentiments and moral limitations as a way to keep a country safe in the long-term. The thing is, yes, he will start this fire, yes, he will probably be burned to death by it, but the world... the world will be forever changed by what he will bring.
With Henrietta, maybe Tristain would have survived this crisis, but she would have passed away sooner or later, and the world would have rememebered her as an enlightened queen, who saved her country in the darkest hour... and that's all. Nobles would still control everything, magic would remain the cornerstone of society and power.
With Napoleon, thousands will die. Governments and monarchs will fall. Civil wars will destroy cities. But in the end, everything will be different, because a commoner did it. He faced the natural law of nobility superiority, he faced unthinkable odds, and won. Won, and won again. Maybe he finally fell, but before that, he destroyed forever the belief that commoners could only be below nobility. Once this is done, once this idea, this truth is in the minds of everybody, or at least enough people, the age of absolute monarchy is over. Yes, some kings and queens can hold power for a time, but their system will fall, a global result the French Revolution couldn't have attained itself before him, neither the U.S. one. And that will be even truer in this universe than in OTL Europe.
It will be bloody, it will be monstrous, but it will lay the fundations of a new world order.
Whether Napoleon wins or loses, the nobles have already lost.
With Henrietta, maybe Tristain would have survived this crisis, but she would have passed away sooner or later, and the world would have rememebered her as an enlightened queen, who saved her country in the darkest hour... and that's all. Nobles would still control everything, magic would remain the cornerstone of society and power.
With Napoleon, thousands will die. Governments and monarchs will fall. Civil wars will destroy cities. But in the end, everything will be different, because a commoner did it. He faced the natural law of nobility superiority, he faced unthinkable odds, and won. Won, and won again. Maybe he finally fell, but before that, he destroyed forever the belief that commoners could only be below nobility. Once this is done, once this idea, this truth is in the minds of everybody, or at least enough people, the age of absolute monarchy is over. Yes, some kings and queens can hold power for a time, but their system will fall, a global result the French Revolution couldn't have attained itself before him, neither the U.S. one. And that will be even truer in this universe than in OTL Europe.
It will be bloody, it will be monstrous, but it will lay the fundations of a new world order.
Whether Napoleon wins or loses, the nobles have already lost.
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
I can respect this post, presentation, opinion, and acknowledgement.SmallTips said:
@frankieYour oversimplification and disparaging opinons are an eysore.LtFrankie said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
huh?ER5013 said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
No please explain how my anger and dislike Napoleon is derived from an antiquated honor system and not postmodern values derived from living in a first world country. Or about my thinking leading to rot and decay?ER5013 said:
I spelled it out earlier, but almost every member of the Guard is a former musketeer whom was transferred into Napoleon's command.LtFrankie said:
And sadly, I've realized that whenever I go through the manga to figure details out, I start laughing like crazy whenever Henrietta shows up.
For the record, that did happened in the LNs. (Vol14) Henrietta got screwed over by Vittorio delibrately planning things to bait Joseph into launching a strike into Romania, with Vittorio holding his anniversary of taking the Papal throne close to the Gallian border and leaked out that he's the Romalian Void Mage to Joseph's agents. Tristain, and Tristain's Void Mage (Louise) ended up siding with Vittorio without given a choice, disregarding that Louise was convinced Vittorio was in the right (due to Joseph kidnapping Tabitha and making deals with elves).Shikaze said:
Then (Vol15 Ch7) Henrietta tried to fix this by making a deal with Joseph - she'll help him conquer Helkeginia, since to her that's better than letting Vittorio drag the entire continent into a pointless crusade against the elves and be slaughtered. Humans exist right now at elves' mercy, she understands that if the elves cared enough for all out war instead of guarding their borders Helkeginia will be in ruins - Henrietta wants the lesser of two hells, Joseph as King verses total annihilation by the elves. Joseph admitted Henrietta had good political skills, that if all he wanted was domination over Helkeginia he'd take the deal and likely to get control over the continent. Shame he didn't want to control the world - all he wanted was to see the world burn. He wanted to see that hell. She miscalculated the premise and became a prisoner of war. (Having said that, Joseph admitted himself no-one could have predicted he wasn't a power-hungry tyrant but wanted something else with the information available)
tl;dr - Henrietta is indeed not comparable compared to Vittorio or Joseph. Kindness, unfortunately, just doesn't cut it in politics even if you're a master at making deals (at least in ZnTverse)
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- Little Rock, AR
So she should have just blown them away and pinned it on them trying to kill one another?Flere821 said:
I changed that. It's predominantly male, as is shown by the fact that well, you've met three Guard members (Cartier Martin, Owen Foucard, and Guiche) and they're all guys. I actually didn't know that the musketeers were an Amazon brigade until Flere told me after I wrote them in the first chapter where they appeared, and since I think that's utterly stupid( and really, it doesn't make any sense given Agnes and Henrietta's personality aside from lol canon author fanservice), it wasn't worth retconning.LtFrankie said:
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- Little Rock, AR
If she has her own nuke their castles.... I probably should have said had them blown away.SmallTips said:
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- Little Rock, AR
No Louise the Walking Big Bomber who ran headlong into a territory in the middle of a Civil war.SmallTips said:
Shikaze
Mecha-Musume Enthusiast
- Location
- Nantes, France
No, and you just proved our respective points : she hasn't got ANY way to get the best of those two. Napoleon may or may not have a way, but it will have an effect on the continent as a whole, and it makes for a good story... Which is what we want.Larekko12 said:
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- Little Rock, AR
I see. What about tristania's assets on that front? Isn't colbert from the remnants of one such thing or was he church?SmallTips said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
Ah you miss the intent of my question. I was asking about Tristainia know covert assets and using colbert as an example of their existence while expressing uncertainty. I beleived he was tristainian ex spec ops but he could have been of the church as well.Rodyle said: