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Dragon Age: Inquisition.

WhoAmEye said:
Given Leliana's reputation as the Inquisition spymaster, and being the Left Hand of the Divine before that, and her noted history as an orlesian bard...

I think when Leliana asks nicely, you count your blessings and comply.
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Let's also not forget being besties with the Hero of Ferelden and possibly being involved in the recovery of Andrastre's ashes.
 
Also remember that Thedas at the end of the Inquisition is basically perfectly primed for a massive shift in culture and society, especially the Chantry. The leadership on all sides is dead, there's been nothing but chaos, war and death for years and literal demons had rained down from the sky. Leiana has a lot of factors going for her that would allow for a radical shift in church policy. I always picked her because of that. If things were ever going to change it's at that moment with someone like Leiana. Otherwise things will settle back into their horrible status quo or exist to prop up the ego of a power mad dictator, depending on who gets picked.
 
VolantRedX said:
Also remember that Thedas at the end of the Inquisition is basically perfectly primed for a massive shift in culture and society, especially the Chantry. The leadership on all sides is dead, there's been nothing but chaos, war and death for years and literal demons had rained down from the sky. Leiana has a lot of factors going for her that would allow for a radical shift in church policy. I always picked her because of that. If things were ever going to change it's at that moment with someone like Leiana. Otherwise things will settle back into their horrible status quo or exist to prop up the ego of a power mad dictator, depending on who gets picked.
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Also possibly for some industrialisation judging by Bianca's seed drill, spinning frame and mechanical thresher.
 
ForeverShogo said:
Then maybe it's just my natural cynicism that prevent me from taking Soft Leliana as Divine seriously.
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Soft leliana undercuts the ending of hard leliana. The hard leliana ending makes sense she manages to effect change via eliminating her rivals. But then they give you the wishy washy "Oh, actually she totally didn't need to do anything but be nice and her detractors would totally just.... not oppose her and bring her dreams down" considering most of the chantry WON'T be behind her.
 
stratigo said:
Soft leliana undercuts the ending of hard leliana. The hard leliana ending makes sense she manages to effect change via eliminating her rivals. But then they give you the wishy washy "Oh, actually she totally didn't need to do anything but be nice and her detractors would totally just.... not oppose her and bring her dreams down" considering most of the chantry WON'T be behind her.
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The thing is there isn't really a Chantry left to oppose her. The whole reason either she or Cassandra are even considered is that pretty much every major and most minor political leadership in the Chantry were sort of blown up. The rest have little political will and no actual political capital. Meanwhile Leliana has both. If she's been softened it's less that those that want to oppose her choose not to, it's that she's more than capable of simply defeating their machinations without murder. It's sort of like the way Josephine's assassin situation is resolved. Hardened Leliana would just kill everyone in her way to get what she wants. Softer Leliana would simply find away to resolve things without violence.
 
VolantRedX said:
The thing is there isn't really a Chantry left to oppose her. The whole reason either she or Cassandra are even considered is that pretty much every major and most minor political leadership in the Chantry were sort of blown up. The rest have little political will and no actual political capital. Meanwhile Leliana has both. If she's been softened it's less that those that want to oppose her choose not to, it's that she's more than capable of simply defeating their machinations without murder. It's sort of like the way Josephine's assassin situation is resolved. Hardened Leliana would just kill everyone in her way to get what she wants. Softer Leliana would simply find away to resolve things without violence.
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There very much IS a chantry. This'd be like saying if the pope and the college of cardinals all died, suddenly the catholic church is free reign for female priests, gay marriages and contraception for all.

The chantry is an institution. The leadership died, sure, but the entire structure underneath that survived. No one alive has to political clout to ascend to the top, primarily because the leadership of the chantry is orlesian and the orleis is so fucked that it can't help things get in order (just like how most medieval popes just happened to be italian, and those that weren't often still lived in italy). But do you think the head of the chantry in fereldan will suddenly be liberal and reform minded? Leliana isn't just reforming the chantry in the capitol of orleis, she's trying to fix the entire organization, and the entire organization is full behind the structure of the chantry for the past several centuries. There's no way nice leliana brings the chantry behind her. It is vastly more likey she becomes a new anti divine like the one in tevinter. And then is possibly eliminated by the orleisian crown.
 
AKuz said:
Aren't you a fan of the Qun?
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Indeed. I don't like everything about it but I think the good outweighs the bad.

The Chantry doesn't do anything good.
-It's responsible for multiple ethnic cleansings and genocides creating the Alienage situation presently in Thedas. In fact, since were talking about Divine Leliana, she alone roots out the racist system in the Chantry clergy IIRC.
-its main method of maintaining power is a drug ring that it feeds to its army to keep them enslaved until the drug in question destroys their brain.
-its belief system makes no sense and hasn't ever since I first played Origins. First off The Maker exists but doesn't actually do anything for anyone but you should still pray to Him and join the church anyway. Secondly, The Maker put all the Old Gods to sleep undergrounds...which left them easily corrupted by Darkspawn which in turn ushered in the mass devastation of The Blights.

You don't even need to get into the Mages situations to see why The Chantry is 100% awful.
 
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Um, doesn't the softened Leliana ending talk about her dodging multiple assassination attempts? I'm on phone, so can't grab the quotes right now, but I remember seeing that and thinking my terrifying dwarven warden probably handled the assassins and the people who sent them.
 
hellgodsrus said:
Um, doesn't the softened Leliana ending talk about her dodging multiple assassination attempts? I'm on phone, so can't grab the quotes right now, but I remember seeing that and thinking my terrifying dwarven warden probably handled the assassins and the people who sent them.
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Here.
One month after the defeat of Corypheus, the Chantry names Leliana as successor to the Sunburst Throne.

Given the name Divine Victoria, she first declares an end to the Circle of Magi; the mages will now govern themselves.

She opens the priesthood to other races, declares support for the Inquisition, and rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.

Divine Victoria is controversial from the start, several new sects arise, resisting her reforms and declaring her rule a threat to the faith.

Leliana - Steeled
Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral.
Leliana - Inspired
She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.
Leliana's personal quest is skipped
She does not fight them, and it is not long before the Chantry's fractures threaten to tear it apart forever.
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stratigo said:
There very much IS a chantry. This'd be like saying if the pope and the college of cardinals all died, suddenly the catholic church is free reign for female priests, gay marriages and contraception for all.
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It's more like saying if the Pope, the College of Cardinals, all of the bishops, and two thirds of the priestly order all died in a sudden attack after two years where much if not all of the support structure of the Church was destroyed and then Martin Luther was made Pope. Like the explosion at the Conclave didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened after the Circle had been disbanded and the Templars had gone rogue. Their power was already at a nadir and then pretty much anyone who was anyone was killed suddenly and without warning. Then they elected someone with a huge army supporting her as well as a network of spies completely loyal to her and someone who had more or less single handedly saved the world, plus the Court Enchanter to the Empress plus the King of Ferelden.
 
Hardened Leliana as Divine is the only Leliana as Divine that makes sense to me, Non-Divine Leliana's epilogue in Trespasser, particularly if she's romancing the hero of Ferelden, makes a lot more sense for a non-hardened Leliana.

And some of what Leliana does as Divine is pretty much her doing what she believes is right, even if they don't have theological backing. Feels over Chantry canon. What she does is so drastic, so radical, that the only way them sticking makes any sense is if Leliana is the kind of person who would murder anyone who would rise against her. Divine Justinia V was pretty much what a Non-hardened Leliana would look like and she didn't get that much reform put through. Even with DA:I pretty much throwing the Chantry into utter chaos, there's only so much kind words can get you when many of those in the Chantry do not want anything to do with these reforms.
 
Teen Spirit said:
Hardened Leliana as Divine is the only Leliana as Divine that makes sense to me, Non-Divine Leliana's epilogue in Trespasser, particularly if she's romancing the hero of Ferelden, makes a lot more sense for a non-hardened Leliana.

And some of what Leliana does as Divine is pretty much her doing what she believes is right, even if they don't have theological backing. Feels over Chantry canon. What she does is so drastic, so radical, that the only way them sticking makes any sense is if Leliana is the kind of person who would murder anyone who would rise against her. Divine Justinia V was pretty much what a Non-hardened Leliana would look like and she didn't get that much reform put through. Even with DA:I pretty much throwing the Chantry into utter chaos, there's only so much kind words can get you when many of those in the Chantry do not want anything to do with these reforms.
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Which is why it's miraculous that her words actually take root.
 
Personally I'd say that a fair amount of non-hardened Leliana's success is rooted in the writers not wanting to spend so much time decrying being murderous at any sign of dissent only to flip around and make being a murderous asshole the only way to get a good ending with Leliana. And even then they added in the implication that her diplomatic approach might not work forever with that "for now" bit.
 
what if the people know of leliana's reputation and/or the potential other people in the shadows who might shiv them if they disagree with her even though she promises she and her people wont shiv them

shiv is a fun word
 
VolantRedX said:
It's more like saying if the Pope, the College of Cardinals, all of the bishops, and two thirds of the priestly order all died in a sudden attack after two years where much if not all of the support structure of the Church was destroyed and then Martin Luther was made Pope. Like the explosion at the Conclave didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened after the Circle had been disbanded and the Templars had gone rogue. Their power was already at a nadir and then pretty much anyone who was anyone was killed suddenly and without warning. Then they elected someone with a huge army supporting her as well as a network of spies completely loyal to her and someone who had more or less single handedly saved the world, plus the Court Enchanter to the Empress plus the King of Ferelden.
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you are overestimating the amount of people who died and underestimating the amount of people it takes to run a continent wide religion.

Like, yes, non hard eliana can get elected on the backing of the inquisition and its strength. But she certainly isn't going to change the chantry in any fundamental ways. I'll give her personal skills enough credit that she'll be able to dodge any assassins thrown her way, but she's not going to rule a united chantry. The chantry would fucking revolt and elect a new divine and call her an anti divine.
 
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