Discussion of Dark Matter, Mass, and Relativity

I'm not sure I understand your question; the notation is standard in mathematics and not physics-specific. O(n) is the orthogonal group, the symmetry group of n-dimensional Euclidean space that preserves a fixed point, i.e. without translations. SO(n) is the specifial orthogonal group, i.e. also excluding mirror reflections, and thus is just the rotation in Euclidean n-space.

You can represent O(n) as real orthogonal matrices if you like, RT​R=RRT​ = I, which have determinant ±1, and SO(n) would correspond to those with det R = +1. U(n) is the unitary group, which you can represent as complex unitary matrices, with analogous restriction so SU(n).

For example, SO(3) is the groups of rotation in three dimensions (i.e. symmetry of a 2-sphere). SU(2) is isomorphic to the electron spin group; the usual Pauli matrices are just a standard basis for it. If you take them and multiply by i, then including the identity matrix, you have an algebra isomorphic to the quaternions, which represent the same rotation by two different quaternions. So it's at least intuitive that there's a double cover. Here we do have some notional convention differences between mathematicians and physicists, but I gather that's not what you're asking about.

Anyway, one way to think about it is this: if you think your electron has a conserved angular momentum by itself, then guided by the insight of Noether's theorem, the conserved quantity should correspond to infinitesimal rotations. The infinitesimal limit of the rotation group SO(3) is its Lie group so(3). The notation is not important, but something special happens: the Lie group of SU(2) is isomorphic to so(3). So the requirement of angular momentum conservation can't distinguish between them: the spin 1/2 group must be a valid possibility.

There's a whole bunch of things that can be said in less handwavy way, and have been done in various textbooks and literature, up to and including that field theory essentially narrows the elementary particle spins to {0,1/2,1,3/2,2}, but I hope this clarified some things. The overall point is that characterising spin as some leftover bit and to imply this is some kind of problem or an ad hoc appendix is just wrong. Spin is there because the electron is spinning. (People that have a problem with this statement, and many do, are stuck in a classical mindset. Quantum-mechanically, to say that a physical thing does or doesn't do something is to at least implicitly make an empirical prediction about a result of some observable. Since an electron has intrinsic angular momentum we can measure, it is spinning.)

Also, that the Kepler problem has symmetry SO(4) is an interesting property of bound Newtonian orbits; the motion of the planet in momentum space corresponds through stereographic projection to motion of a free particle on a sphere in four dimensions. This fact was used to first derive the correct energy levels of hydrogen in 1925, i.e. a year before the Schrödinger equation.

With all due respect, you aren't very good at explaining things to non-physicists. The notation might be standard in pure mathematics and physics, but I've never seen it before, even in the masters level solid state physics course I took several years ago. I'm used to seeing the various symmetry notations used in crystallography, which are entirely different. Your digression into electron angular momentum is entirely irrelevant to my question and doesn't help clarify anything.

I looked up Lie groups, and lets just say I know just enough math to realize the phrase "differentiable manifold" means I'm way out of my depth. Reading a bit more, it seems the unfamiliar notation is because you're dealing with continuous symmetries while I've only dealt with discrete symmetries before. It makes sense that two different categories of symmetries would have different notations.

Anyways, I got enough of an answer to my question.
 
I strongly suspect this is some translation problem. I don't think anyone in anglophone chemistry would call electron momentum and spin fields. Maybe associate electrons with a spinor field, but that seems different than the direction you're going.

Offhand, it sound vaguely like just the wave model in different terms. But I don't know. :/

Like I said two different models used at the same time and can't disregard either and can't fully integrate them (yet). But yes it is a version of the wave model.

The bulk of the above is that your statement
is simply completely mistaken. It characterises spin as some ad hoc fudge factor to make models come out right. That is not what spin is as a concept. Rather, spin is an inevitable consequence of an electron being able to carry angular momentum by themselves. And if an electron is an elementary particle, its spin is highly constrained to basically be one of very few possibilities, and they're all allowed. I already gave a rough outline why.

(An interesting question is why the standard model does not have a spin-3/2 elementary particle, even though that's one of the four non-verboten possibilities, but that's another issue.)

No the question I find interesting is why does a Proton have a spin of 1/2 instead of 1 which was the expected spin for it back in the day. The whole 3/2 spin could be argued to not have been found yet or our calculations could also be wrong and that one is also verboten.

I said was that if one understands where spin comes from conceptually, rather than treating as a leftover remains, then using this group-theoretic understanding one can also derive:
1) The energy levels of hydrogen, and that the degeneracy of each must be n².
2) A big chunk of the general structure of the periodic table, specifically the double-of-odds pattern for orbitals (2s,6p,10d,14f,..).This is meant to illustrate the conceptual power of understanding the actual origin of spin, rather than treating it as some leftover appendix.

What I did not say was that it is enough to understand the full structure of the periodic table (e.g. this doesn't really derive Aufbauprinzip, or much less it in the full glory), nor that everything about the orbitals of a specific atom can be calculated. I also gave reasons why it's not enough for that: mainly, it ignores increased complexity electron-electron interactions, further relativistic corrections especially relevant for heavy atoms, and many other things.

Many indeed. Your explanation with spin can be used for 2s and none of the others: 6p is too high up to not run into electron-electron interactions, further relativistic corrections relevant for heavy atoms, and many other things. 10d and 14f may not even be a thing as far as we know. Also why did you use 2s and 6p as an example? Isn't 1s2​ and/or 2s2​ and 2p6​ the usual examples for this sort of stuff? Or if you were going for something that includes f shouldn't it then at least be: 6s2​ 4f14​ 5d10​ 6p6​ ? I mean it still runs afoul of the heavier atoms problem (anything with f-orbitals that start to fill up with electrons does) but why use something that is only hypothetical like 10d and 14f?

All of that can be reduced to GeVⁿ or something. Not good radix economy.

o_O Are you serious? I'm not talking about good or bad radix economy, I'm talking about the current empirical measurements radix system. If you can think of a better one that encompasses all the current empirical measurements by all means do so. I'd honestly like something better than an unequal base 7 as a radix as well.
 
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The whole 3/2 spin could be argued to not have been found yet or our calculations could also be wrong and that one is also verboten.
The former explanation is much more likely to be right. Most extensions of the standard model have spin 3/2 elementary particles; it's also automatically forced by supersymmetry.

No the question I find interesting is why does a Proton have a spin of 1/2 instead of 1 which was the expected spin for it back in the day.
What was the reasoning and was it pre-quark?

Intuitively, if you have quark spins more aligned, they should repel, and therefore be a higher-energy configuration. So you should have an excited proton state with spin 3/2 (a delta-plus resonance), and the more anti-aligned state with spin 1/2 (the proton) lower. It should be just plain calculable, though, or perhaps with some prettier argument in terms of Gell-Mann–Okubo mass formula or otherwise.

... I mean it still runs afoul of the heavier atoms problem (anything with f-orbitals that start to fill up with electrons does) but why use something that is only hypothetical like 10d and 14f?
Oh wow; my bad. Laziness in writing on my part caused a dumb thing. What I mean is that the fact that the three-dimensional rotation group has irreducible representations of (just the) odd dimensions, and that the electron spin is a double cover, explains why you can fit up to 2*1 electrons into the l=0 orbital, 2*3 electrons into the l=1 orbital, and so forth. Or: 2 in s, 6 in p, 10 in d, etc.

Because I didn't type 'in', that looked very bad in a chemistry context. But anyway, I hope that correction makes it alright. Put another way, the spherical harmonics are the irreps of SO(3), but in an explicitly group-theoretic framework, both orbital and spin angular momenta have a conceptually unified relationship to how rotation and angular momentum work.

The claim itself works very well until the heavy atoms.

No, I'm mostly taking the piss, just like last time regarding that everyone should use base e always because it's the natural base and has the best radix economy. None of that is serious. Although reducing every unit to a power of GeV is a completely consistent and serviceable system of units. A lot of people use it every day, actually. But it would be silly to genuinely recommend it as a global standard.
 
What was the reasoning and was it pre-quark?

Intuitively, if you have quark spins more aligned, they should repel, and therefore be a higher-energy configuration. So you should have an excited proton state with spin 3/2 (a delta-plus resonance), and the more anti-aligned state with spin 1/2 (the proton) lower. It should be just plain calculable, though, or perhaps with some prettier argument in terms of Gell-Mann–Okubo mass formula or otherwise.

As far as I am aware the reasoning involves superconductivity and it was pre-quark.

Oh wow; my bad. Laziness in writing on my part caused a dumb thing. What I mean is that the fact that the three-dimensional rotation group has irreducible representations of (just the) odd dimensions, and that the electron spin is a double cover, explains why you can fit up to 2*1 electrons into the l=0 orbital, 2*3 electrons into the l=1 orbital, and so forth. Or: 2 in s, 6 in p, 10 in d, etc.

Because I didn't type 'in', that looked very bad in a chemistry context. But anyway, I hope that correction makes it alright. Put another way, the spherical harmonics are the irreps of SO(3), but in an explicitly group-theoretic framework, both orbital and spin angular momenta have a conceptually unified relationship to how rotation and angular momentum work.

The claim itself works very well until the heavy atoms.

Yeah and then you reach the heavy atoms and you start to find that mass in the value of Quarks starts to not be where you expect it to be in the atomic core while the number of Quarks still checks out. This is why the Pilot wave theory is seen as an Oxygen theory analogue: it gives us a tool to make a stoichiometric calculation that can be tested trough various regular measurement methods in reactions. Even if the Pilot wave theory turns out to be wrong it still points in the direction in which to look for solutions to some of the problems had in connecting Quantum Mechanics to Chemistry which makes it useful.
 
Even if the Pilot wave theory turns out to be wrong it still points in the direction in which to look for solutions to some of the problems had in connecting Quantum Mechanics to Chemistry which makes it useful.
Yes, but--

Pilot wave theory is mathematically equivalent to MWI, as far as I know. Does that mean it would be fair to say that all the same computations required by MWI, would still be required by a universe running PWT? Just with the addition of a pointer state.

It's not clear to me that the pointer state does any more work than letting us point at one factor of the wavefunction and say "this is it, this is the real one". Which has all the same problems in my mind as philosophical zombies.
 
Yes, but--

Pilot wave theory is mathematically equivalent to MWI, as far as I know. Does that mean it would be fair to say that all the same computations required by MWI, would still be required by a universe running PWT? Just with the addition of a pointer state.

It's not clear to me that the pointer state does any more work than letting us point at one factor of the wavefunction and say "this is it, this is the real one". Which has all the same problems in my mind as philosophical zombies.

I'm talking about practical uses for it here that will advance the science of Chemistry in the next decades not some magic bullet non-sense that will suddenly give us a Unified Theory of Everything. I honestly don't care about UTE because from my point of view we still don't know how much we don't know so there is no point in trying to jump to the unification of everything yet.
 
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