Did you know the US First Amendment is evil?

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Farmerbob1

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Politics have touched on Forum Staff in a way that should be of concern to all of us.

Roughly 24 hours ago, one of the directors of the site, Director @LordSquishy , decided to make clear where he stands on free speech.

Specifically, Lordsquishy stated that "the First Amendment is a very poor model. Inartfully drafted, poorly considered, and in implementation essentially evil,"

Later, in this response, @foamy defended LordSquishy, trying to say that the comment was a rhetorical flourish. If the statement was merely a rhetorical fluourish, where is the apology and/or edit of the original statement by LordSquishy after our esteemed Director was called out on it?

The answer is simple. LordSquishy actually believes that the first amendment is evil. The same first amendent that has been instrumental in ending slavery, allowing women to vote, gaining equal rights for people of color, and allowing those of alternate sexuality to start to gain equal rights, amongst many other things.

As many of you can certainly attest, I am also as a fellow who is very difficult to convince to change my beliefs. At that level, I can respect LordSquishy for being unwilling to make a false retraction or apology. Standing up for what he believes in, even if that belief shows him to be ignorant, shows that at least he isn't an intellectual coward.

I am not calling for LordSquishy's removal. That would need to be handled through different channels. I believe in free speech. I believe that it is LordSquishy's right to believe that free speech is evil, even in a site devoted to literature, despite the fact that literature has long been one of the bastions of free speech.

However, I also believe that it is my responsibility as a member of this community to advise other members of the community, to the best of my ability, what LordSquisy has revealed of his inner thoughts. LordSquishy is a part of the staff. He helps to set moderation standards. If he does hold the belief that the gold standard of free speech is evil, and other staff members abide by it, and even make excuses for it, that bodes poorly for the future exchange of ideas on this site.

I have tagged both LordSquishy and Foamy in this post in order to allow them to quickly defend themselves. I do not know that I would believe a retraction by LordSquishy after he allowed so much time to pass between his original statement and now, but I think he should have the right to express an apology, and the reason for his delay, if Foamy was correct, and the statement was rhetorical.

Something else to watch out for. Will this thread be locked, or will I be site-banned because I dared to make a public announcement that we have a potential free-speech-hater at the highest levels of the staff?
 
How do you get from

"the 1A is badly drafted, which is why when we wrote SV's free speech protection we chose not to directly emulate it"
to
"I hate free speech?"

Like, the phrasing is clearly over the top, but the underlying point (that the 1A, as written, hasn't done the best job protecting free speech interests)... isn't that unreasonable. There's a lot of scholarship on how the 1A is problematic. It results in stuff like Citizens United. It results in it being really hard to prosecute certain kinds of hate speech. Squishy didn't say that free speech is bad. He said the 1A is bad.

How is that bad?
 
How do you get from

"the 1A is badly drafted, which is why when we wrote SV's free speech protection we chose not to directly emulate it"
to
"I hate free speech?"

Like, the phrasing is clearly over the top, but the underlying point (that the 1A, as written, hasn't done the best job protecting free speech interests)... isn't that unreasonable. There's a lot of scholarship on how the 1A is problematic. It results in stuff like Citizens United. It results in it being really hard to prosecute certain kinds of hate speech. Squishy didn't say that free speech is bad. He said the 1A is bad.

How is that bad?

How do you get from "the First Amendment is a very poor model. Inartfully drafted, poorly considered, and in implementation essentially evil," to watered down criticism that was not expressed?
 
The answer is simple. LordSquishy actually believes that the first amendment is evil. The same first amendent that has been instrumental in ending slavery, allowing women to vote, gaining equal rights for people of color, and allowing those of alternate sexuality to start to gain equal rights, amongst many other things.

I'd like to point out that ending slavery and allowing women to vote are attributable to the Thirteenth and Nineteenth Amendments respectively, 74 years and 129 years after the First Amendment respectively. If it really was responsible for overcoming these obstacles, I really would vastly prefer a faster tool than the First Amendment.
 
Just a formality, but does this thread not belong into the Forum News & Staff Communication forum?

Besides that I am unclear what this whole hoopla shall accomplish.
 
Just a formality, but does this thread not belong into the Forum News & Staff Communication forum?

I have a feeling it won't be here long.


Yeah, this has always weirded me out about Americans. There appears to be some kind of quasi-religious ancestor worship going around about the US constitution and it's signers. Stuff is defended not because of what it is, but because God the Founders wrote it, and to suggest it might be wrong is basically blasphemy.
 
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If he does hold the belief that the gold standard of free speech is evil
Okay, this bothered me in the other thread, but where is it said that the 1A is the "gold standard" of free speech? Which experts say that? Why is it not article 19 of the universal Declaration of Human Rights, since it purports to be universal? Or the French Revolution's Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme? Or the English Bill of Rights of 1689?

In short, how is your claim factual?
 
If you actually read what he wrote, he thinks that its implementation is basically evil, not the 1A itself.

The 1A itself, for him, is a "poor model" which is a pretty standard point among pretty much everyone not blinded by RAH RAH MURICA.

I addressed this in the other thread. Implementation of something can either refer to how something was made, or the way that pieces and parts are combined inside the made object.

As far as I am aware, there were no evil rituals involved in creating the first amendment, and LordSquishy did not indicate in a follow-up that he believed that to be the case. Additionally, the phrasing does not support the watered down version you are trying to push. The text "and in implementation essentially evil" is not indicative of formation, it is indicative of content.

I'd like to point out that ending slavery and allowing women to vote are attributable to the Thirteenth and Nineteenth Amendments respectively, 74 years and 129 years after the First Amendment respectively. If it really was responsible for overcoming these obstacles, I really would vastly prefer a faster tool than the First Amendment.

I'd like to point out that the first amendment allowed people to speak out about such issues. Without the first amendment, what took so long might have taken much, much longer.

Just a formality, but does this thread not belong into the Forum News & Staff Communication forum?

Besides that I am unclear what this whole hoopla shall accomplish.

No, because this topic is very closely tied to real world politics. This is not asking the staff to change, because that almost certainly won't happen. This is advising the community about the values that the staff have demonstrated that they hold.

Okay, this bothered me in the other thread, but where is it said that the 1A is the "gold standard" of free speech? Which experts say that? Why is it not article 19 of the universal Declaration of Human Rights, since it purports to be universal? Or the French Revolution's Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme? Or the English Bill of Rights of 1689?

In short, how is your claim factual?

I also answered you in the other thread. The First Amendment is the gold standard of free speech because any standard of free speech that curtails more speech than the First Amendment is not 'free speech' it is 'less free speech.'

The First Amendment does restrict a very narrow band of speech. Threats. Libel. Slander. Inciting panic. Things that can directly cause harm.

The argument that any speech that does not cause harm directly should be considered evil is nearly as ignorant as someone trying to claim that guns are evil.

Speech is not evil. Guns are not evil. People can be evil. Allowing evil people to speak allows us to more reliably identify them and deal with them. Silencing them simply allows evil to fester.
 
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I addressed this in the other thread. Implementation of something can either refer to how something was made, or the way that pieces and parts are combined inside the made object.
Ah, so you know how to read, you just lack vocabulary.



Implementation means "putting something into application", not "how something was made" or the inner workings of something. So, « The text "and in implementation essentially evil" is not indicative of formation, it is indicative of content » is entirely false. "its implementation is evil" means that it's used in an evil way. Now you may agree or not, but that is a totally different argument than "the 1A is evil".

(LS's position on the 1A being, and you quoted it yourself, "it's poorly made")
 
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I'd like to point out that the first amendment allowed people to speak out about such issues. Without the first amendment, what took so long might have taken much, much longer.

And let's see how well that worked.

The Petition Clause first came to prominence in the 1830s, when Congress established the gag rule barring anti-slavery petitions from being heard; the rule was overturned by Congress several years later. Petitions against the Espionage Act of 1917 resulted in imprisonments. The Supreme Court did not rule on either issue.

Turns out. Not at all.

It was not the first amendment that dealt with the gag rules against anti-slavery petitions. It was the growing anti slavery movement that finally convinced enough representatives to overcome the gag rule.

No, because this topic is very closely tied to real world politics. This is not asking the staff to change, because that almost certainly won't happen. This is advising the community about the values that the staff have demonstrated that they hold.

Yeah, your martyr act is obvious, but not very convincing.
 
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Ah, so you know how to read, you just don't have any vocabulary.



Implementation means "putting something into application", not "how something was made".

One thing that most people learn as they grow up is that the meaning of words changes when they are used with other words. You may have missed this fact.

When one says "and in implementation, essentially evil" it is not referring to events external to the construct in question, you are referring to the components of the construct in question. The use of the word 'in' is pretty critical here. And, again, if my take on the matter were not what LordSquishy intended, I'm sure he's capable of advising us of that. But he hasn't, so stop trying to put words in a Director's mouth.
 
When one says "and in implementation, essentially evil" it is not referring to events external to the construct in question, you are referring to the components of the construct in question. The use of the word 'in' is pretty critical here.
"This thing is bad, and in implementation evil" and "This thing is bad, and applied in an evil way" quite literally mean the same thing.
"This thing is bad, and in implementation evil" and "This thing is evil" do not.
 

I didn't put words in his mouth. LordSquishy wrote the words, not me. And he has chosen to neither apologize, nor clarify his statement.

"This thing is bad, and in implementation evil" and "This thing is bad, and applied in an evil way" quite literally mean the same thing.
"This thing is bad, and in implementation evil" and "This thing is evil" do not.

When you say that something, [['in implementation' is <any descriptor>]] you are not referring to how something was made, you are referring to the inherent traits of the something itself.
 
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I'd like to point out that the first amendment allowed people to speak out about such issues. Without the first amendment, what took so long might have taken much, much longer.

The countries that successfully abolished slavery after the height of the trans-Atlantic slave trade includes Spain in 1811, Sweden in 1813, Britain in 1833, Denmark in 1846, France in 1848, Portugal in 1858, and the Netherlands in 1861, among others. None of these countries, incidentally, had the First Amendment. The United States eventually banned slavery in 1865.

Oh, and the countries that granted women the vote and also don't have the First Amendment? New Zealand, Australia, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Austria, Germany, Poland, Russia, and the Netherlands.

Not being a lawyer, I'm a bit more agnostic on the First Amendment, but maybe don't put it on a pedestal and assume it's the of all and be all of free speech legislation?
 
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