Daybreak on Hyperion (Original Fantasy)

[Hologram Killer]

"I can't breathe…"

Kaede gasped out as she leaned forward with her hands holding onto the table's edge. Rachel, the head maid, was tightening the laces on her back, and it was impressive how much strength the old woman's bony fingers had.

"Stop complaining. I haven't even finished the first tightening." Rachel retorted as she continued her methodical lace-pulling. The elderly maid then offered some advice: "Breath slowly. I thought you Samarans believed in 'meditating'?"

"I fail to see how 'meditation' has anything to do with strangling my lungs." Kaede gasped out as the leather corset around her waist tightened another notch. She could feel how it forcely shaped her waist into an hourglass-like arc. "Why do I have to wear this again?"

"Because Her Highness suggested it," Rachel reminded the familiar girl. Though her words ran with approval as she continued: "besides, every girl wears one. It helps you maintain better posture and provides support for your back through a day's work. Even the Princess wears one beneath her dress."

Kaede did notice that all of the palace maids wore a pair of leather stays — an early version of the corset — around their waist. It hugged their midsections from the breasts to above the hips. The Princess' dress had leather sewn in around her midriff as well. Though in her outfit, the leather simply blended in with the other patches that were meant to anchor armor straps.

I don't remember seeing anything like this on Ariadne's uniform, Kaede thought. It was yet further proof that Rhin-Lotharingie was 'backwards' compared to the more progressive Weichsel.

Click to shrink...

I feel a bit bad to have my first comments on this story be a complaint, but the corset myths here are just so blatantly incorrect I feel I have to say something.
1. Women did not nearly suffocate themselves trying to get into corsets. Corsets (the kind you describe at least which sound like ) were first and foremost breast support and were worn by working class women for hours at at time for work and during athletic activity. There were summer corsets, athletic corsets, health corsets and even maternity corsets. If your corset hurts as you are wearing it, it is too tight, the same as a bra or any other undergarment.

2. Corsets (in real life) were not worn against the skin (because they are difficult to launder and expensive besides) and were worn in conjunction with other garments to make an illusion of the waist being smaller than it actually was. You don't need to tight lace your corset when you have a huge skirt and big puffy sleeves to make your waist look small in comparison. The measurements used for historical corset patterns are fairly close to waist sizes of today accounting for the lack of nutrition.

3. Corsets being seen a restrictive and anti-woman stems from misconceptions long after corsets were no long common. First, men typically hated corsets, as they did any fashion women wore really, and they especially disliked tight-lacing. The trend then was natural beauty, so obvious make-up and tight-lacing were seen as vain and unnatural. Second, I have to stress they are not all that constrictive. You won't be able bend at the waist, and you may use back muscles you're not used to engaging but you'll be fine. And third it's just silly. Women still wear body altering clothing that can be uncomfortable, how progressive are we when we just traded the corset for the girdle, spanx, and plastic surgery. There are better examples to demonstrate the progress of society.

Further reading:

The History Of Corsets Is More Complicated Than You Probably Think

Every morning, before slipping into her work clothes, Sarah Woodyard puts on a corset. As a Milliner and Mantua-Maker at Colonial Williamsburg, wearing a historically accurate corset is part of Woodyard's job, where she spends her day educating…

www.bustle.com

Corsets and Skeletal Deformities: Anthropological Study

In September 2015, The Canadian Student Journal of Anthropology (Nexus) included an anthropological study of women’s skeletons from England and France in the 1800s, when corsets were at their…

lucycorsetry.com

You can emphasize that wearing a corset is strange to Kaede without repeating these myths i think. Even if it's not a literal torture device like most people believe, it does make you sit and carry yourself in a different way.

I'm sorry for the rant, I'm genuinely enjoying the story and the exploration of power dynamics, but fashion mythes are very much a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Winged One]

I don't know, is Kaede really dumb enough to fall for the tactics Cecylia suggests, even having seen a minute glimpse of Sylvaine's true face?

I feel a bit bad to have my first comments on this story be a complaint, but the corset myths here are just so blatantly incorrect I feel I have to say something.
1. Women did not nearly suffocate themselves trying to get into corsets. Corsets (the kind you describe at least which sound like ) were first and foremost breast support and were worn by working class women for hours at at time for work and during athletic activity. There were summer corsets, athletic corsets, health corsets and even maternity corsets. If your corset hurts as you are wearing it, it is too tight, the same as a bra or any other undergarment.

2. Corsets (in real life) were not worn against the skin (because they are difficult to launder and expensive besides) and were worn in conjunction with other garments to make an illusion of the waist being smaller than it actually was. You don't need to tight lace your corset when you have a huge skirt and big puffy sleeves to make your waist look small in comparison. The measurements used for historical corset patterns are fairly close to waist sizes of today accounting for the lack of nutrition.

3. Corsets being seen a restrictive and anti-woman stems from misconceptions long after corsets were no long common. First, men typically hated corsets, as they did any fashion women wore really, and they especially disliked tight-lacing. The trend then was natural beauty, so obvious make-up and tight-lacing were seen as vain and unnatural. Second, I have to stress they are not all that constrictive. You won't be able bend at the waist, and you may use back muscles you're not used to engaging but you'll be fine. And third it's just silly. Women still wear body altering clothing that can be uncomfortable, how progressive are we when we just traded the corset for the girdle, spanx, and plastic surgery. There are better examples to demonstrate the progress of society.

Further reading:

The History Of Corsets Is More Complicated Than You Probably Think

Every morning, before slipping into her work clothes, Sarah Woodyard puts on a corset. As a Milliner and Mantua-Maker at Colonial Williamsburg, wearing a historically accurate corset is part of Woodyard's job, where she spends her day educating…

www.bustle.com

Corsets and Skeletal Deformities: Anthropological Study

In September 2015, The Canadian Student Journal of Anthropology (Nexus) included an anthropological study of women’s skeletons from England and France in the 1800s, when corsets were at their…

lucycorsetry.com

You can emphasize that wearing a corset is strange to Kaede without repeating these myths i think. Even if it's not a literal torture device like most people believe, it does make you sit and carry yourself in a different way.

I'm sorry for the rant, I'm genuinely enjoying the story and the exploration of power dynamics, but fashion mythes are very much a pet peeve of mine.

Click to shrink...

This was a corset she was ordered into by a sadist with a personal grudge, though.

 

[Hologram Killer]

I don't know, is Kaede really dumb enough to fall for the tactics Cecylia suggests, even having seen a minute glimpse of Sylvaine's true face?

This was a corset she was ordered into by a sadist with a personal grudge, though.

Click to shrink...

There are many ways to portray Sylvaine as cruel without repeating historical misinformation in a story with a historian as a main character. If the scene with Sylvaine had her imply that she purposefully over tightened Kaede's corset out of spite and that no one actually wears their garments like that, it would've accomplished the same narrative purpose while still being in line with history and emphasizing Sylv's pettiness. Instead it's said Sylv wears hers even tighter ??

Either way if even 1 person learned something from what I wrote i don't regret posting it.

 

[Blaflaix]

is Kaede really dumb enough to fall for the tactics Cecylia suggests, even having seen a minute glimpse of Sylvaine's true face?

Click to shrink...

Does it matter if she "falls for it?"

Sylvaine does control her life in many ways.
She can make things better or worse for her.

Realizing it's deliberate doesn't really change things.

How long would she "hold out" on principle?
What principle would she hold out for?

Is it worth fighting back (whatever that means) if her eventual demands are reasonable?
And what would be the alternative?

And having a glimpse of her "true face" makes it even more difficult.
In theory, standing up to someone might allow you to change their mind if they are reasonable, but if they have a mental illness it really doesn't.

 

[aoriiday]

I feel a bit bad to have my first comments on this story be a complaint, but the corset myths here are just so blatantly incorrect I feel I have to say something.
1. Women did not nearly suffocate themselves trying to get into corsets. Corsets (the kind you describe at least which sound like ) were first and foremost breast support and were worn by working class women for hours at at time for work and during athletic activity. There were summer corsets, athletic corsets, health corsets and even maternity corsets. If your corset hurts as you are wearing it, it is too tight, the same as a bra or any other undergarment.

2. Corsets (in real life) were not worn against the skin (because they are difficult to launder and expensive besides) and were worn in conjunction with other garments to make an illusion of the waist being smaller than it actually was. You don't need to tight lace your corset when you have a huge skirt and big puffy sleeves to make your waist look small in comparison. The measurements used for historical corset patterns are fairly close to waist sizes of today accounting for the lack of nutrition.

3. Corsets being seen a restrictive and anti-woman stems from misconceptions long after corsets were no long common. First, men typically hated corsets, as they did any fashion women wore really, and they especially disliked tight-lacing. The trend then was natural beauty, so obvious make-up and tight-lacing were seen as vain and unnatural. Second, I have to stress they are not all that constrictive. You won't be able bend at the waist, and you may use back muscles you're not used to engaging but you'll be fine. And third it's just silly. Women still wear body altering clothing that can be uncomfortable, how progressive are we when we just traded the corset for the girdle, spanx, and plastic surgery. There are better examples to demonstrate the progress of society.

Click to shrink...

First of all, let me just state that I quite agree with everything you've said, and I know... most of what you've brought up ('men hated corsets' is news to me though). What I find odd though is why you seem to take only Kaede's comments at value, while ignoring Rachel's rebuttals?

This chapter was intentionally written in a manner where Kaede and Rachel's attitudes towards corsetry are in stark contrast. Whereas Kaede react very poorly to being laced, Rachel considers it a normal wear and even see corsets as be a positive that should be encouraged, to the point she openly mocks Kaede's comments about having trouble breathing. I guess since Kaede is the narrative protagonist (especially in the scene in question) it reads as if corsets are cast in a very poor light, so it might seem like I'm in the anti-corset camp.

Therefore let me explain why I wrote this in the manner I did:

1. Kaede is not a fashion enthusiast and would know very little about women's fashion in history. And to her the corset is not merely a garment, but rather an icon of the oppression she's feeling from the Princess. Of course she's rather vehement towards it and regurgitating all the negative stereotypes.

2. Kaede is also not used to tight clothing and... doesn't really need any chest support (xD)

3. Kaede was not gradually accustomed to corsetry, as proper corset wearers would be. Instead, she's tight-laced in her very first time with a steel-boned garment that she has never worn before. Not to mention she's wearing a corset that was sized for someone else (everyone just assumes she has the same measurements as Vivi, for reasons you'll learn about when we finally meet Vivi).

If you're familiar with the practice of corsetry, you should also know that this is ill practice. As both the girl and the garment needs time to grow accustomed to one another -- the girl would start with a 'trainer' of sorts and gradually wear tougher corsets over time, while the corset needs to be 'broken in' (just as a leather shoe needs to be). One could certainly make the argument that Rachel should have known what the best practices are and this goes against it. But alas, she was following orders. And the Princess did this as a means of exerting control.

Oh, and Kaede is actually wrong about Ariadne not wearing any shaperwear. Furthermore, pesuming a culture is "more civilized" just because they meet our expectations is a sign of egocentric, cultural-centrist thinking. As a cultural scholar, Kaede does realize this, which is why she immediately snipped the thought off.

There's actually a scene later in volume 2 (in the extra chapter) that'll discuss this topic from the perspective of someone who does enjoy corsetry.

I don't know, is Kaede really dumb enough to fall for the tactics Cecylia suggests, even having seen a minute glimpse of Sylvaine's true face?

Click to shrink...

I'm not going to spoil any future events, but... just what is Sylviane's "true face" here?
Sylviane is written as a princess who is actually guarding her interests when her fiancee tries to bring another girl into the relationship.

 

[Winged One]

I'm not going to spoil any future events, but... just what is Sylviane's "true face" here?

Click to shrink...

She's ruling-class, so I'm of course referring to the petty sadist punishing the victim for a crime that her fiance comitted which has minor splash effects upon her.

Given that you seem to share Blafaix's views on corsetry, the fact that she even thinks about the corset thing when asked if she's been bullying Kaede also indicates that she deliberately ordered poor practice performed upon her partner's presumed paramour. But I didn't know your (and therefore the story's) stance one way or the other when I wrote the post you're replying to, so this paragraph is obviously just me finding more justifications for my opinion.

 

[Nyx -Nyx-Nyx]

She's a royal, so I'm of course referring to the petty sadist punishing the victim for a crime that her fiance comitted which has minor splash effects upon her.

Click to shrink...

I mean keeping Kaede away from Pascal/flexing her muscles there is really the only way Sylv can even remotely punish him realistically especially given now more than ever she needs him due to political/war reasons. She is also a teenager under hideous amounts of stress due to a massive war, whose politically important fiancé in many ways publicly humiliated her with summoning Kaede and has oodles and oodles of power. Kaede's a pretty natural focus for that frustration and inspite of that the punishment is pretty light compared to what she could do. Even ignoring the whole dungeons thing, she could easily just send her away for a long time as punishment.

 

[prof_Chemical]

god what a fucking cow. i am suppossed to hate her right? and pascal and that vampire woman, and that pushy guy from the magic college?
the prodigy gal from the college was cool, but she keeps very poor company. I get we are reading a subversion of like an escapist fantasy. but we are going somewhere other than kaede just being abused ad finitum by systemic and personal forces entrenched with magic?

 

[Winged One]

Does it matter if she "falls for it?"

Sylvaine does control her life in many ways.
She can make things better or worse for her.

Realizing it's deliberate doesn't really change things.

How long would she "hold out" on principle?
What principle would she hold out for?

Is it worth fighting back (whatever that means) if her eventual demands are reasonable?
And what would be the alternative?

And having a glimpse of her "true face" makes it even more difficult.
In theory, standing up to someone might allow you to change their mind if they are reasonable, but if they have a mental illness it really doesn't.

Click to shrink...

Well, if she is deceived, she'll stop looking for chances at escape. If she mistakes her summoner's fiance for a friend, she might pass up a chance to improve her life at the expense of the Princess'.

I mean keeping Kaede away from Pascal/flexing her muscles there is really the only way Sylv can even remotely punish him realistically especially given now more than ever she needs him due to political/war reasons. She is also a teenager under hideous amounts of stress due to a massive war, whose politically important fiancé in many ways publicly humiliated her with summoning Kaede and has oodles and oodles of power. Kaede's a pretty natural focus for that frustration and inspite of that the punishment is pretty light compared to what she could do. Even ignoring the whole dungeons thing, she could easily just send her away for a long time as punishment.

Click to shrink...

I don't dispute that this sort of unjust behavior is natural for rulers and future-rulers. Violence and betrayal of the lower rungs is the purpose of hierarchy. And sure, actually prosecuting Pascal for kidnapping would be impolitic, suicidal, and probably illegal given the situation, but I somehow doubt it's the consequences to her subjects that stay her hand.

 

[Hologram Killer]

First of all, let me just state that I quite agree with everything you've said, and I know... most of what you've brought up ('men hated corsets' is news to me though). What I find odd though is why you seem to take only Kaede's comments at value, while ignoring Rachel's rebuttals?

This chapter was intentionally written in a manner where Kaede and Rachel's attitudes towards corsetry are in stark contrast. Whereas Kaede react very poorly to being laced, Rachel considers it a normal wear and even see corsets as be a positive that should be encouraged, to the point she openly mocks Kaede's comments about having trouble breathing. I guess since Kaede is the narrative protagonist (especially in the scene in question) it reads as if corsets are cast in a very poor light, so it might seem like I'm in the anti-corset camp.

Therefore let me explain why I wrote this in the manner I did:

1. Kaede is not a fashion enthusiast and would know very little about women's fashion in history. And to her the corset is not merely a garment, but rather an icon of the oppression she's feeling from the Princess. Of course she's rather vehement towards it and regurgitating all the negative stereotypes.

2. Kaede is also not used to tight clothing and... doesn't really need any chest support (xD)

3. Kaede was not gradually accustomed to corsetry, as proper corset wearers would be. Instead, she's tight-laced in her very first time with a steel-boned garment that she has never worn before. Not to mention she's wearing a corset that was sized for someone else (everyone just assumes she has the same measurements as Vivi, for reasons you'll learn about when we finally meet Vivi).

If you're familiar with the practice of corsetry, you should also know that this is ill practice. As both the girl and the garment needs time to grow accustomed to one another -- the girl would start with a 'trainer' of sorts and gradually wear tougher corsets over time, while the corset needs to be 'broken in' (just as a leather shoe needs to be). One could certainly make the argument that Rachel should have known what the best practices are and this goes against it. But alas, she was following orders. And the Princess did this as a means of exerting control.

Oh, and Kaede is actually wrong about Ariadne not wearing any shaperwear. Furthermore, pesuming a culture is "more civilized" just because they meet our expectations is a sign of egocentric, cultural-centrist thinking. As a cultural scholar, Kaede does realize this, which is why she immediately snipped the thought off.

There's actually a scene later in volume 2 (in the extra chapter) that'll discuss this topic from the perspective of someone who does enjoy corsetry.



I'm not going to spoil any future events, but... just what is Sylviane's "true face" here?
Sylviane is written as a princess who is actually guarding her interests when her fiancee tries to bring another girl into the relationship.

Click to shrink...

Apologies then. Fashion history is a real blind spot for people who are otherwise knowledgable about history, so I assumed it was ignorance on your part when that wasn't the case.

 

[aoriiday]

She's a royal, so I'm of course referring to the petty sadist punishing the victim for a crime that her fiance comitted which has minor splash effects upon her.

Click to shrink...

I would argue that the 'splash effect' is anything but minor. When you're royalty, you have to be extra careful to watch your reputation. Every matter concerning you as a person is now a matter of state. And "your husband has a mistress" is no light matter.

To give a good example - during Roman times, Senators whose wives had extramartial lovers were openly mocked in public as "cuckolds". It undermines both their image and their authority. And during the reign of Augustus, he supposedly issued an ultimatum that demanded husbands either force their cheating wives into line, or relinquish their public positions of power.

The double standard expectations of ruling is that as a ruler, you were allowed to cheat on your lover, but never the other way around. Because if you can't even rule your lover, then why should anyone else allow you to rule them?

In this case, since Sylviane cannot demand Pascal discard his familiar (well she can, she just know he'd react very badly), the alternative is to be the one in charge.

I get we are reading a subversion of like an escapist fantasy. but we are going somewhere other than kaede just being abused ad finitum by systemic and personal forces entrenched with magic?

Click to shrink...

Actually, if you've ever read political drama taking place in royal courts, this is pretty standard affair. It's part of the reason why female-targeting genres like Shoujo Manga about "girl entering high society" is filled with the heroine having to overcome all forms of bullying.

Also there's a reason why the subtitle of The Dictator's Handbook (one of the best books on politics that I've read) is "Why bad behavior is almost always good politics."

edit: But Yes, Kaede does eventually get her own recognition and social status, though that takes a while as she has to earn it first. At mentioned in the prologue, this is not a power fantasy.

Apologies then. Fashion history is a real blind spot for people who are otherwise knowledgable about history, so I assumed it was ignorance on your part when that wasn't the case.

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No worries. I like discussing this kind of thing (and there's not enough people in my circles to talk about historical fashion xD). I just prefer to do it from a stance where I wasn't feeling like I was pressed into the defensive.

I've actually spent quite a bit of time considering the various dress ettiquette of the setting. So if you'd like to discuss any part -- much welcomed

 

[Winged One]

I would argue that the 'splash effect' is anything but minor. When you're royalty, you have to be extra careful to watch your reputation. Every matter concerning you as a person is now a matter of state. And "your husband has a mistress" is no light matter.

To give a good example - during Roman times, Senators whose wives had extramartial lovers were openly mocked in public as "cuckolds". It undermines both their image and their authority. And during the reign of Augustus, he supposedly issued an ultimatum that demanded husbands either force their cheating wives into line, or relinquish their public positions of power.

The double standard expectations of ruling is that as a ruler, you were allowed to cheat on your lover, but never the other way around. Because if you can't even rule your lover, then why should anyone else expect you to be able to rule them?

In this case, since Sylviane cannot demand Pascal 'divorce' his familiar, the alternative is to be the one in charge.

Click to shrink...

Eh, people say that, but... to my eye, I can never shake the impression that it's no more than justification for using power to enact revenge for hurt feelings. Enemies will mock someone over it, allies will make excuses, but do such concerns really sway anyone from one to the other?

As for Agustus' weird decree, I hesitate to ascribe any motivation but furthering their own power to the actions of a Roman emperor. What threats or rivals were mocked in this way at the time of the decree? (I don't actually expect you or anyone else to know.)

I do actually think it's reasonable for Sylvaine to make some public points about her position above Kaede, but implying desires that she be ostracized by the maids (the closes thing Kaede has to social equals around here, according to society), and possibly outright ordering that she be put into the sort of corset that reinforces Kaede's stereotypes about corsetry, both indicate a level of pettiness and grudge that make any attempt at an amicable relationship an obvious lie. Anyway, it shows an entirely normal sort of moral character for Sylvanie, the most damning insult I can offer. The familiar bond is truly fearsome, if it can subvert a phoenix's ability to burn such people. Probably why she summoned one.

 

[PeepTheSheep]

Eh, people say that, but... to my eye, I can never shake the impression that it's no more than justification for using power to enact revenge for hurt feelings. Enemies will mock someone over it, allies will make excuses, but do such concerns really sway anyone from one to the other?

As for Agustus' weird decree, I hesitate to ascribe any motivation but furthering their own power to the actions of a Roman emperor. What threats or rivals were mocked in this way at the time of the decree? (I don't actually expect you or anyone else to know.)

I do actually think it's reasonable for Sylvaine to make some public points about her position above Kaede, but implying desires that she be ostracized by the maids (the closes thing Kaede has to social equals around here, according to society), and possibly outright ordering that she be put into the sort of corset that reinforces Kaede's stereotypes about corsetry, both indicate a level of pettiness and grudge that make any attempt at an amicable relationship an obvious lie. Anyway, it shows an entirely normal sort of moral character for Sylvanie, the most damning insult I can offer. The familiar bond is truly fearsome, if it can subvert a phoenix's ability to burn such people. Probably why she summoned one.

Click to shrink...

While Sylviane did order that Kaede wear a corset that was extra tight, I don't think she realized how unpleasant it would be for her. Part of the reason the corset was so unpleasant was because Kaede had never worn one before, while every woman Sylviane knew had worn corsets most of their life. Even if she knew that Kaede had never worn one before, I doubt Sylviane entirely realized what its like to have your first corset be tight laced.

As for being ostracized by the maids, I don't think that was Sylviane's intention. I think her main goal was to separate Kaede from Pascal and drive home the point that they were not social equals.

I think that in both these cases, Sylviane was trying to enact some fairly minor revenge against Kaede and not entirely realizing how cruel she was being. The end of the chapter makes it look like she is already starting to realize that she has been too cruel to her. She also has realized that directing her jealousy towards Kaede is unfair to her. Sylviane has already started to show some character development, let her grow a bit more before dismissing her as a friend for Kaede.

 

[Winged One]

While Sylviane did order that Kaede wear a corset that was extra tight, I don't think she realized how unpleasant it would be for her. Part of the reason the corset was so unpleasant was because Kaede had never worn one before, while every woman Sylviane knew had worn corsets most of their life. Even if she knew that Kaede had never worn one before, I doubt Sylviane entirely realized what its like to have your first corset be tight laced.

As for being ostracized by the maids, I don't think that was Sylviane's intention. I think her main goal was to separate Kaede from Pascal and drive home the point that they were not social equals.

I think that in both these cases, Sylviane was trying to enact some fairly minor revenge against Kaede and not entirely realizing how cruel she was being. The end of the chapter makes it look like she is already starting to realize that she has been too cruel to her. She also has realized that directing her jealousy towards Kaede is unfair to her. Sylviane has already started to show some character development, let her grow a bit more before dismissing her as a friend for Kaede.

Click to shrink...

Though your reading is legitimate, she is still of a ruling class. She deserves no such optimism, even less than most people do.

I do see in retrospect many signs that the author intends what you see. But if she really is meant to be an extraordinary young woman who never meant for her malice to rise to ordinary levels, I'm going to be disappointed if the narrative doesn't at least acknowledge this fuckery and how fucked up the incentives to forgive her are.

 

[PeepTheSheep]

Though your reading is legitimate, she is still of a ruling class. She deserves no such optimism, even less than most people do.

I do see in retrospect many signs that the author intends what you see. But if she really is meant to be an extraordinary young woman who never meant for her malice to rise to ordinary levels, I'm going to be disappointed if the narrative doesn't at least acknowledge this fuckery and how fucked up the incentives to forgive her are.

Click to shrink...

It's still early in the story and I think the story has been good at acknowledging the power imbalance in Pascal's and Kaede's relationship. I'll give it some more time to develop.

 

[Winged One]

It's still early in the story and I think the story has been good at acknowledging the power imbalance in Pascal's and Kaede's relationship. I'll give it some more time to develop.

Click to shrink...

That much, I can agree with.

 

[aoriiday]

Eh, people say that, but... to my eye, I can never shake the impression that it's no more than justification for using power to enact revenge for hurt feelings. Enemies will mock someone over it, allies will make excuses, but do such concerns really sway anyone from one to the other?

Click to shrink...

(shrug) You're certainly free to have your own opinions. Besides, I'm not saying this is good behavior in any way. In fact the whole conversation with Cecylia was to point out that Sylviane was doing it wrong.

At this point in time, making any 'public points about her position above Kaede' would be the worst action she could do. It's like shouting to everyone "hey my fiance has this other girl but trust me I'm totally the one actually in charge". It would feel like a face-saving gesture at best and only fuel the rumor mill.

implying desires that she be ostracized by the maids

Click to shrink...

That would be a false assumption, as it doesn't even serve any of Sylviane's aims. The reason why the maids treat Kaede poorly is clearly (and honestly) stated by Rachel - because the Princess is kind to the servants of the court, and therefore those servants see Kaede's position as an insult to their mistress' honor. This was such common behavior that even Downton Abbey showed it.

While Sylviane did order that Kaede wear a corset that was extra tight, I don't think she realized how unpleasant it would be for her. Part of the reason the corset was so unpleasant was because Kaede had never worn one before, while every woman Sylviane knew had worn corsets most of their life. Even if she knew that Kaede had never worn one before, I doubt Sylviane entirely realized what its like to have your first corset be tight laced.

Click to shrink...

This is actually pretty accurate. From Sylviane's perspective it's basically "I'm forcing her to dress a certain way but nothing more than that."
Her aim has never been about 'revenge' (in which case yes, this would be exceptionally petty), but rather to exert control and show that she's the one in charge. Bit like when a parent goes "you're going to wear this to the Church because I said so."

 

[Solarstream]

What I find odd though is why you seem to take only Kaede's comments at value, while ignoring Rachel's rebuttals?

Click to shrink...

I can only speak for myself here, but Rachel's rebuttals come off as very dismissive and it feels like this is just being done to torment Kaede... which turns out to be accurate. The fact that the things she's saying are true matters less than the fact that she's saying them to control Kaede.

 

[aoriiday]

I can only speak for myself here, but Rachel's rebuttals come off as very dismissive and it feels like this is just being done to torment Kaede... which turns out to be accurate. The fact that the things she's saying are true matters less than the fact that she's saying them to control Kaede.

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I can see that. Though in this case, would "dismissive" not also be the right tone to take? Since from Rachel's perspective -- Kaede is making a big fuss about nothing. Her response to Kaede speaking of "passing out" was meant to debunk the idea that a 'fainting couch' even exists.

Though based on the responses, it's clear some of the points on Rachel vs Kaede's contrasting perspectives aren't getting across properly, so I made a few light edits to the scene:

"I can't breathe…"

Kaede gasped out as she leaned forward with her hands holding onto the table's edge. Rachel, the head maid, was tightening the laces on her back, and it was impressive how much strength the old woman's bony fingers had.

"Stop exaggerating. I haven't even finished the first tightening." Rachel retorted as she continued her methodical lace-pulling. The elderly maid then offered some advice: "Calm yourself and breath slowly. I thought you Samarans believed in 'meditating'?"

"I fail to see how 'meditation' has anything to do with strangling my lungs." Kaede gasped out as the leather corset around her waist tightened another notch. She could feel how it cinched her waist into an hourglass-like arc. "Why do I have to wear this again?"

"Because Her Highness desired it, and as she is the 'mistress of the castle', it is in her right to tell all servants what they should wear," Rachel reminded the familiar girl of the social pecking order. Though her words ran with approval as she continued: "besides, every girl wears one. It helps you maintain better posture and provides support for your back through a day's hard work. Even the Princess wears one beneath her dress and she has always enjoyed it."

Kaede did notice that all of the palace maids wore a pair of leather stays — an early version of the corset — around their waist. It hugged their midsections from the breasts to above the hips. The Princess' dress had leather sewn in around her midriff as well. Though in her outfit, the leather simply blended in with the other patches that were meant to anchor armor straps.

I don't remember seeing anything like this on Ariadne's uniform, Kaede thought. It was yet further proof that Rhin-Lotharingie was 'backwards' compared to the more progressive Weichsel.

The Samaran girl then immediately snapped off that train of thought. She closed her eyes and shook her head in self-disgust. I sound like an egocentric child.

"Done." Rachel announced at last as she knotted the laces' extra length. "That's the first tightening. We'll let your body adjust for a few minutes before we finish."

Kaede groaned. She was already having trouble taking a full breath.

"Isn't this enough? If you pull this any tighter I'm going to pass out."

She really did not want to have first-hand user experience with the infamous 'fainting couch'.

"If you do, you'd enter palace history as the first girl to do so from something so mild." Rachel's reply came flat. She then ran her hand across the exterior of her own leather stays, which wrapped around her midsection and was held tight by laces. "I've worn one of these every day for the past century. I can't imagine going through a full working day without it."

"You may be used to them but I'm not!" Kaede's wispy answer came with an exhale.

"That does appear to be true, as you seem oddly unaccustomed to tight garments." Rachel frowned. "Normally, we should probably get you accustomed to a lighter pair of stays first. But in this case, as you are associated with members of the royal household, there are expectations to uphold."

Pompous elitist dress codes. The Samaran girl complained in silence as she reached down with her fingers and traced across a stiff, vertical bump on her corset's exterior. It was hidden beneath a column of pink, floral laces.

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----


Two topics I forgot to add to the earlier discussion. Had to dig up some old bookmarks:

1. As the effective 'mistress of the house', it is her right for Sylviane to be able to tell a servant like Kaede on how to dress and more - such was the accepted social standard. Being a domestic servant before modern labor laws is hard.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RxwwC3c89k

2. Not all corsets are equal. Good corsets provide a lot of benefits. But bad corsets are just... bad. It depends on how well made it is and how properly fitted it is for the individual. Especially when... "It makes sense that for a lot of [modern] people, if you put anything glove-fitting on them, are not just going to be comfortable, until you get used to it."
@Hologram Killer - if you haven't seen this already


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWr_GtqsvFA

 

[Winged One]

1. As the effective 'mistress of the house', it is her right for Sylviane to be able to tell a servant like Kaede on how to dress and more - such was the accepted social standard. Being a domestic servant before modern labor laws is hard.

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I don't think anybody's disputed that society considers this to be something Sylvaine's allowed to do? The details are new to me, but unsurprising.

However, Rachel's just blatantly lying to Kaede's face about Sylvaine's motivation. I'm kind of hoping that Sylvaine actually finds out that Kaede had never worn a corset in her life and now thinks all the stereotypes she's heard about them being torture devices are true, though. Along with the shunning. If she truly does have compassion despite her social class, that'd at least hurt her.

 

[aoriiday]

I don't think anybody's disputed that society considers this to be something Sylvaine's allowed to do? The details are new to me, but unsurprising.

However, Rachel's just blatantly lying to Kaede's face about Sylvaine's motivation. I'm kind of hoping that Sylvaine actually finds out that Kaede had never worn a corset in her life and now thinks all the stereotypes she's heard about them being torture devices are true, though. Along with the shunning. If she truly does have compassion despite her social class, that'd at least hurt her.

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Not about dispute. It's just me trying to add historical context to the discussion.

But let me ask you this -- why would Rachel know what Sylviane's motivation is? Do you always know what your boss is thinking for every decision they make?

Sylviane will find out some of Kaede's views later. Insofar as the servants' bullying, mmmh that's an interesting suggestion. So far in the story I have not written such a scene. It is very uncommon historically for the people upstairs to know exactly what's happening downstairs, due to the barriers of formality.

 

[Winged One]

It goes against my instincts to attribute something to miscommunication when malice is also a possible explanation, but this is a story.

Insofar as the servants' bullying, mmmh that's an interesting suggestion. So far in the story I have not written such a scene. It is very uncommon historically for the people upstairs to know exactly what's happening downstairs, due to the barriers of formality.

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Well, the obvious potential explanation for something being historically unrealistic is to lean on the fantasy elements. Any reason why Pascal might want to see something through Kaede while it's happening? Are any previously-morally-upright servants likely to have routine exposure to phoenix fire?

 

[Solarstream]

I can see that. Though in this case, would "dismissive" not also be the right tone to take? Since from Rachel's perspective -- Kaede is making a big fuss about nothing. Her response to Kaede speaking of "passing out" was meant to debunk the idea that a 'fainting couch' even exists.

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I guess?

I actually went and re-read the chapter before this one, where Rachel first shows up, and she's much warmer there then she is in that scene.

Then again, when I read them immediately in sequence, Rachel also came off less hostile in the lacing scene than I remembered, so... idk.

 

[Blaflaix]

It's also likely that bullying in this case might just be something passive like ostracizing Kaede.
Which would not be a fun way to spend a week in a new place, but it wouldn't provide the kind of "smoking gun" needed to see it in action.

"We just didn't have anything to talk about."

 

[aoriiday]

It goes against my instincts to attribute something to miscommunication when malice is also a possible explanation, but this is a story.

Well, the obvious potential explanation for something being historically unrealistic is to lean on the fantasy elements. Any reason why Pascal might want to see something through Kaede while it's happening? Are any previously-morally-upright servants likely to have routine exposure to phoenix fire?

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It's not even a matter of miscommunication. In this scenario, Sylv has no reason to tell Rachel her reasons, and Rachel has no reason to ask because it's perfectly normal behavior (hence my mention of historical context). Furthermore, Rachel has shown no motive of harm towards Kaede. In fact she has spent the entire previous chapter being helpful.

I feel like this is another case of the Fundamental Attribution Error - when one make ill assumptions of other people's behavior (malice) when one would have excused it in oneself (misunderstanding).

If Pascal is looking through Kaede without an extremely good reason when Kaede has explicitly told him not to (a defined boundary), then that would be far more problematic behavior than what the servants are doing.
And just because a servant doesn't like the protagonist it doesn't make them 'evil' (that only happens in Disney stories). And the phoenix only cares about whether they're hostile to the phoenix's master, which is certainly not in this case.

It's also likely that bullying in this case might just be something passive like ostracizing Kaede.
Which would not be a fun way to spend a week in a new place, but it wouldn't provide the kind of "smoking gun" needed to see it in action.

"We just didn't have anything to talk about."

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Ostracizing generally requires coordinated action though, which usually becomes very obvious when everyone turns their back on you, even when you're just asking them something as simple as "where is ___"