Crows of Destruction -ASOIAF: War of Five Kings NG

[Arryn]

I'm sorry, but I wasn't expecting defection from Tarly and they had 70 000 to our 50 000 at the battle of Harrenhal.

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Can someone explain to my how my forces suffered casualties to the tune of 50% killed when we showed up apparently late to attack the enemy in the rear?

I mean, the Knights of the Vale by themselves lost more men in one engagement than both sides suffered killed at the entire Battle of Redgrass Field, which is considered one of the bloodys battles in Westeros' history...I lost like more men than Stannis did at the Blackwater, or the Gardeners did at the Field of Fire!

 

[King Saul]

I just lost 10,000 knights killed in one battle?

Well, the Vale just got fucked harder than any of its past wars with the North...

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It's the RNG not good when it does not want, all this started with Mace Tyrell deciding to ally with Stannis without taking the consequences with his vassals into account, so I'd say it's valid you declare war on the Tyrells too ..... but Stannis was the one who most suffered with all this without doubt.

 

[Arryn]

It's the RNG not good when it does not want, all this started with Mace Tyrell deciding to ally with Stannis without taking the consequences with his vassals into account, so I'd say it's valid you declare war on the Tyrells too ..... but Stannis was the one who most suffered with all this without doubt.

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I don't really care what happened to Stannis since he's like 2 and a half Kingdoms away from me.

I mean, I've effectively been knocked out of the war. No Kingdom can suffer casualties of that tune in just one battle and continue fighting without having to regroup and raise reinforcements...which will take a while to gather and even then it would be difficult to replace the men we just lost, who were seasoned veterans of dozens of battles with the Mountain Clans. I can only imagine how many noble Houses lost men...I mean, the Vale just lost like 20% of its entire army.

 

[Caspoi]

I didn't even order my forces to attack King's Landing but stay in the northern Stormlands!

 

[Caspoi]

It's the RNG not good when it does not want, all this started with Mace Tyrell deciding to ally with Stannis without taking the consequences with his vassals into account, so I'd say it's valid you declare war on the Tyrells too ..... but Stannis was the one who most suffered with all this without doubt.

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Many of the Reachmen vassals were sympathetic towards Stannis in canon, and even more would have been had Garlan Tyrell been killed by the Lannisters, which in turn would have lowered their support for the Lannister cause, in fact I don't see why so many of the Reach men would have thought that Stannis (who they sieged once and would hold more of a grudge towards them than they towards him) would be a far worse choice than Joffrey, who killed the favoured son of the Reach and is now looking like he has a really bad position. As for declaring themselves king I should note that unlike the Starks or Arryns the Tyrells have never been kings themselves, they were stewards in the past. And daenerys is in Qarth at this moment, difficult to declare for a Queen half a world away, that half of the people wouldn't even know existed. And I sent my fleet to guard the Narrow Sea, and to do battle if the Lannisters sent their own fleet out, that's hardly leaving Dragonstone unprotected.

 

[King Saul]

I didn't even order my forces to attack King's Landing but stay in the northern Stormlands!

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Many of the Reachmen vassals were sympathetic towards Stannis in canon, and even more would have been had Garlan Tyrell been killed by the Lannisters, which in turn would have lowered their support for the Lannister cause, in fact I don't see why so many of the Reach men would have thought that Stannis (who they sieged once and would hold more of a grudge towards them than they towards him) would be a far worse choice than Joffrey, who killed the favoured son of the Reach and is now looking like he has a really bad position. As for declaring themselves king I should note that unlike the Starks or Arryns the Tyrells have never been kings themselves, they were stewards in the past. And daenerys is in Qarth at this moment, difficult to declare for a Queen half a world away, that half of the people wouldn't even know existed. And I sent my fleet to guard the Narrow Sea, and to do battle if the Lannisters sent their own fleet out, that's hardly leaving Dragonstone unprotected.

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So I'm afraid you left things subjective in the plans, the forces you had in the stormlands, at least part of them would be along with the fleet in my understanding, and Stannis would surely be on the ships next to Kings'Landing, Joffrey and the Lannisters are the same side so I understood that the Redwyne Fleet in my view serves the Lannisters, what happened in Kings'Landing was a reaction and action to the Redwynes tried to end their naval blockade (determined by RNG), the betrayal of the vassals of Tyrell was also determined by RNG, but I see no sense in them simply accepting that their LP follow a King who has abandoned the Faith of the Seven by a foreign religion, sometimes the question is not whether the King is a good person or not, but if it will bring changes or not that can change things too much ..... as for Dragonstone, you really did not care about the safety of the Stannis family, a forgotten detail makes all the difference at the time of Report, and to Tyrell .... he could have declared neutrality in the war then if the other two possibilities were so difficult.

 

[BlackCrown]

I could have declared neutrality in the war, yes, but at the same time why shouldn't I be involved? I believe Stannis' unpopularity is being far overplayed here, especially if it's to the point where 80% of my men desert. I am a popular ruler in Westeros, and men wont abandon ship just because of a single decision. Further, the Lannister's themselves are viewed as particuarly despicable by the Reachmen, and Daenerys' isn't even know to be alive by the average man. I get that you decide it by RNG, but it seems to me that you are putting far too much power in the dice.

 

[BlackCrown]

Not to mention that Stannis would be even more popular here, as he was popular within the Reach in canon, when he was winning victories.

I would also like to argue that every detail should not be covered by players. It is impossible for the player to control every single minute detail, but that doesn't mean that if they overlook something the population will just take it. A naval assault would have given Stannis' family plenty of time to flee and escape, for instance, even if Stannis himself did not order that.

 

[CommandoHowizter]

I believe Stannis' unpopularity is being far overplayed here, especially if it's to the point where 80% of my men desert. I am a popular ruler in Westeros, and men wont abandon ship just because of a single decision.

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Though is rather OOC of the Tyrells to back Stannis of all the candidates due to the, you know, starving him for the better part of a year thing.

Further, the Lannister's themselves are viewed as particuarly despicable by the Reachmen,

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Which is why Mace had no problem rallying the vast majority of his doomstack, including men such as Tarly and Rowan (who even stayed loyal to Mace here) to the Lannisters' side in canon.


I believe that people are letting their personal hatred of the Lannisters cloud their perceptions IC. Sorry, but this game is not going to be a revenge fantasy or fix-fic #22102934767483 where the "bad guys" lose.

 

[Caspoi]

So I'm afraid you left things subjective in the plans, the forces you had in the stormlands, at least part of them would be along with the fleet in my understanding, and Stannis would surely be on the ships next to Kings'Landing, Joffrey and the Lannisters are the same side so I understood that the Redwyne Fleet in my view serves the Lannisters, what happened in Kings'Landing was a reaction and action to the Redwynes tried to end their naval blockade (determined by RNG), the betrayal of the vassals of Tyrell was also determined by RNG, but I see no sense in them simply accepting that their LP follow a King who has abandoned the Faith of the Seven by a foreign religion, sometimes the question is not whether the King is a good person or not, but if it will bring changes or not that can change things too much ..... as for Dragonstone, you really did not care about the safety of the Stannis family, a forgotten detail makes all the difference at the time of Report, and to Tyrell .... he could have declared neutrality in the war then if the other two possibilities were so difficult.

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I made it quite clear on multiple occasions that I was not to attack the city and keep out of range of its defences, in fact the army itself wouldn't even march within sight of it but keep to the northern Stormlands. And For the Redwyne fleet to reach Dragonstone they would have to cross the Narrow Sea, where my own ships were crossing. They weren't sent from the Arbor or anything, it would be quite difficult for them to sneak past my fleet and take Dragonstone without opposition. And to be honest Stannis having a foreign religion didn't really matter even to the most devout of the Stormlords, they still followed him after Renly died. and the Reach would have been clamoring for revenge after Garlan died, you think that cowardly staying behind and doing nothing would have been something that they would all have accepted under the circumstances? Even in canon there was a strong pro-Stannis faction in the Reach, and apart from the Tyrells none that were particularly against him, why would they be bitter towards him for having been outside his castle for a year over a decade past? the fact that he still remembers that is presented as part of him being unforgiving towards his enemies and he is the one who had to live on rats, not they.

 

[BlackCrown]

Though is rather OOC of the Tyrells to back Stannis of all the candidates due to the, you know, starving him for the better part of a year thing.

Which is why Mace had no problem rallying the vast majority of his doomstack, including men such as Tarly and Rowan (who even stayed loyal to Mace here) to the Lannisters' side in canon.


I believe that people are letting their personal hatred of the Lannisters cloud their perceptions IC. Sorry, but this game is not going to be a revenge fantasy or fix-fic #22102934767483 where the "bad guys" lose.

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In case you didn't notice, my family was killed by the Lannister's in game. I am not letting my "hatred of the Lannister's" cloud my judgement. There are many reasons why Tyrell sided with the Lannisters in canon, mainly that they were winning. Here the Lannister's were losing, Renly was dead, and I was without a heir to support. Why wouldn't I have chosen Stannis?

I may have "starved him out" for the greater part of the year, but then why did the Stormlords join hand in hand with Stannis after Renly died.

As for why the Tyrell's sided with the Lannisters, it was because they were promised influence and a share in the victory, and they didn't kill a beloved member of my family. By that point, it became clear Stannis was not going to win the war, here it wasn't. I can assure you that my opinion's of the Lannister's in no way shaped my decisions, but ic, it shouldn't even be a factor.

 

[Caspoi]

Though is rather OOC of the Tyrells to back Stannis of all the candidates due to the, you know, starving him for the better part of a year thing.

Which is why Mace had no problem rallying the vast majority of his doomstack, including men such as Tarly and Rowan (who even stayed loyal to Mace here) to the Lannisters' side in canon.


I believe that people are letting their personal hatred of the Lannisters cloud their perceptions IC. Sorry, but this game is not going to be a revenge fantasy or fix-fic #22102934767483 where the "bad guys" lose.

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It is quite clear throughout the series that the lords usually follow their liege first and foremost, and this time he lead them with Stannis. And it's not as if there were a lot of better options for them than Stannis, even if he didn't like them at all. The Lannisters became a bit of a non-option after they killed Mace's fabourite son after all.

 

[CommandoHowizter]

In case you didn't notice, my family was killed by the Lannister's in game. I am not letting my "hatred of the Lannister's" cloud my judgement. There are many reasons why Tyrell sided with the Lannisters in canon, mainly that they were winning. Here the Lannister's were losing, Renly was dead, and I was without a heir to support. Why wouldn't I have chosen Stannis?

I may have "starved him out" for the greater part of the year, but then why did the Stormlords join hand in hand with Stannis after Renly died.

As for why the Tyrell's sided with the Lannisters, it was because they were promised influence and a share in the victory, and they didn't kill a beloved member of my family. By that point, it became clear Stannis was not going to win the war, here it wasn't. I can assure you that my opinion's of the Lannister's in no way shaped my decisions, but ic, it shouldn't even be a factor.

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Ah yes, as the Lannisters were surely winning the war after Jaime was captured with his army utterly annihilated, the Golden Tooth was bypassed and the Westerlands was getting burned to the ground, Tywin just lost a battle to Edmure fucking Tully, and Stannis is marching on KL with massively inflated strength. In this game, Joffrey actually won a battle against his enemies outside of KL, albeit the Westerlands still got burned down. On the whole, its a pretty even balance with regards to canon.

No need for quotes as uhh Stannis ate rats while you feasted outside his walls. So ya.

Stannis working with the Tyrells is utterly and completely OOC. So is the Tyrells working with Stannis after what they have subjected him to.

It is quite clear throughout the series that the lords usually follow their liege first and foremost, and this time he lead them with Stannis. And it's not as if there were a lot of better options for them than Stannis, even if he didn't like them at all. The Lannisters became a bit of a non-option after they killed Mace's fabourite son after all.

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The Dance of Dragons (where the Tyrells stayed neutral even as all their vassals killed each other) and the Blackfyre Rebellions (where Daemon's strength came from the Reach against the wishes of Leo Longhorn) tells me different.

Mace's favourite son is Loras per canon so not sure what you're talking about.

 

[BlackCrown]

Ah yes, as the Lannisters were surely winning the war after Jaime was captured with his army utterly annihilated, the Golden Tooth was bypassed and the Westerlands was getting burned to the ground, Tywin just lost a battle to Edmure fucking Tully, and Stannis is marching on KL with massively inflated strength. In this game, Joffrey actually won a battle against his enemies outside of KL, albeit the Westerlands still got burned down. On the whole, its a pretty even balance with regards to canon.

No need for quotes as uhh Stannis ate rats while you feasted outside his walls. So ya.

Stannis working with the Tyrells is utterly and completely OOC. So is the Tyrells working with Stannis after what they have subjected him to.

The Dance of Dragons (where the Tyrells stayed neutral even as all their vassals killed each other) and the Blackfyre Rebellions (where Daemon's strength came from the Reach against the wishes of Leo Longhorn) tells me different.

Mace's favourite son is Loras per canon so not sure what you're talking about.

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I don't see much of a point in complaining about what's OOC and IC as I stand by my decision that that was fully IC. You may dispute it as you like, but I was also at wad with the Lannisters last turn as well, and as I recognized Joffrey as illegitimate, I now recognize Stannis instead. The Stormlords also sided with Stannis, giving further legitimacy to me siding with him. The GM, King Saul himself, admitted he would not know what the Reach would do in this situation. You have your head canon or whatever, and I have mine.

Just because Mace sides with the Lannisters in canon does not mean that's the only way the game can play out, else there would be no purpose in me playing. As for Caspoi's post, he was more referring to the fact that very rarely do Bannerlord's desert.

Regardless, that is not the crux of this issue, but rather that, for some reason, I was abandoned by the near entirety of my army, despite such a thing being completely unprecedented in book canon.

 

[Ave Anathema]

Regardless, that is not the crux of this issue, but rather that, for some reason, I was abandoned by the near entirety of my army, despite such a thing being completely unprecedented in book canon.

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Plus Joffreys known to be shortsighted and Ax Crazy enough to just as willingly put the defectors to death for not having recognized his legitamacy earlier

 

[Caspoi]

Ah yes, as the Lannisters were surely winning the war after Jaime was captured with his army utterly annihilated, the Golden Tooth was bypassed and the Westerlands was getting burned to the ground, Tywin just lost a battle to Edmure fucking Tully, and Stannis is marching on KL with massively inflated strength. In this game, Joffrey actually won a battle against his enemies outside of KL, albeit the Westerlands still got burned down. On the whole, its a pretty even balance with regards to canon.

No need for quotes as uhh Stannis ate rats while you feasted outside his walls. So ya.

Stannis working with the Tyrells is utterly and completely OOC. So is the Tyrells working with Stannis after what they have subjected him to.

The Dance of Dragons (where the Tyrells stayed neutral even as all their vassals killed each other) and the Blackfyre Rebellions (where Daemon's strength came from the Reach against the wishes of Leo Longhorn) tells me different.

Mace's favourite son is Loras per canon so not sure what you're talking about.

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Missremembered about favourite, although it's not as if Garlan's death is exactly going to win them any favours. He restarted the old feud with the Martells after Oberyn accidentally crippled Willas after all.

And Stannis had to work with a lot of people he deeply disliked to win his throne. Before Renly died some, like his wife, even uttered the belief that he would gain the Reach to his side as well, with Stannis not contradicting them.

And sure, not every vassal will Always follow his liege but just look at the War of the Five Kings, the Stormlands unanimously (or near as so as to make no difference) followed Renly, the Dragonstone vassals followed Stannis, and later so did the Stormlanders once he gained that lordship from Renly, the Vale stayed back like the Arryns, the Iron Islands followed the Greyjoys, and the Reach apart from the Redwynes who stayed back followed the Tyrells as they joined Renly. Is it so hard to Believe that most followed them later on for Joffrey not because they loved him and hated Stannis but because they simple followed the Tyrells where they led them?

 

[CommandoHowizter]

I don't see much of a point in complaining about what's OOC and IC as I stand by my decision that that was fully IC. You may dispute it as you like, but I was also at wad with the Lannisters last turn as well, and as I recognized Joffrey as illegitimate, I now recognize Stannis instead. The Stormlords also sided with Stannis, giving further legitimacy to me siding with him. The GM, King Saul himself, admitted he would not know what the Reach would do in this situation. You have your head canon or whatever, and I have mine.

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My "headcanon" is literally canon but w/e.

And sure, you did not declare for the Lannisters IC but evidently the rest of the Reachlords had a thinking process closer to my own than yours, assuming that we are using Watsonian reasoning instead of inane arguing about established results.

Just because Mace sides with the Lannisters in canon does not mean that's the only way the game can play out, else there would be no purpose in me playing. As for Caspoi's post, he was more referring to the fact that very rarely do Bannerlord's desert.

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Bannerlords desert all the time in the history of ASOIAF, see Faith Militant Uprising, Dance of Dragons, Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion... The Reach especially is rather notorious for this with Mace's reign actually being something of an anomaly with how unified everything is.

Regardless, that is not the crux of this issue, but rather that, for some reason, I was abandoned by the near entirety of my army, despite such a thing being completely unprecedented in book canon.

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...didn't you just say

Just because Mace sides with the Lannisters in canon does not mean that's the only way the game can play out, else there would be no purpose in me playing.

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which inherently precludes things happening like canon?

Missremembered about favourite, although it's not as if Garlan's death is exactly going to win them any favours. He restarted the old feud with the Martells after Oberyn accidentally crippled Willas after all.

And Stannis had to work with a lot of people he deeply disliked to win his throne. Before Renly died some, like his wife, even uttered the belief that he would gain the Reach to his side as well, with Stannis not contradicting them.

And sure, not every vassal will Always follow his liege but just look at the War of the Five Kings, the Stormlands unanimously (or near as so as to make no difference) followed Renly, the Dragonstone vassals followed Stannis, and later so did the Stormlanders once he gained that lordship from Renly, the Vale stayed back like the Arryns, the Iron Islands followed the Greyjoys, and the Reach apart from the Redwynes who stayed back followed the Tyrells as they joined Renly. Is it so hard to Believe that most followed them later on for Joffrey not because they loved him and hated Stannis but because they simple followed the Tyrells where they led them?

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Which is fair and explains why the Tyrells will not declare for Joffrey, though not necessarily for Stannis given all the baggage between them.

Sure, in canon. But here, the Reachlords are confronted by a situation they never had to face in canon - do they follow the eldest "legitimate" son of the king or do they follow the man who they have besieged and starved in a castle, with all the grudges that comes with this act? And there's always base ambition, which paid off quite mightily for Tarly in this case.

 

[CobaltCloyster]

What does Westeros know about Daenerys right now? Is she in the Red Wastes?

 

[BlackCrown]

My "headcanon" is literally canon but w/e.

And sure, you did not declare for the Lannisters IC but evidently the rest of the Reachlords had a thinking process closer to my own than yours, assuming that we are using Watsonian reasoning instead of inane arguing about established results.

Bannerlords desert all the time in the history of ASOIAF, see Faith Militant Uprising, Dance of Dragons, Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion... The Reach especially is rather notorious for this with Mace's reign actually being something of an anomaly with how unified everything is.

...didn't you just say

which inherently precludes things happening like canon?

Which is fair and explains why the Tyrells will not declare for Joffrey, though not necessarily for Stannis given all the baggage between them.

Sure, in canon. But here, the Reachlords are confronted by a situation they never had to face in canon - do they follow the eldest "legitimate" son of the king or do they follow the man who they have besieged and starved in a castle, with all the grudges that comes with this act? And there's always base ambition, which paid off quite mightily for Tarly in this case.

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No, it isn't canon, because this is a game and you are not G.R.R.M who can officially know every single characters intentions. If you can have G.R.R.M. himself come and say it is canon, I will concede. But once again, the whole reason for this arguement is that we are disputing these "established" results, or are you just being purposefully obtuse?

The crux of the matter is, nearly all of my forces left. I ask of you, give me one example where that has ever happened in your "canon" of these books well known for having plenty of untrackable subplots and intrigue. I am willing to listen. However, if you only seek to be obtuse and say "My side is right because that's how it happened in the books," than you are missing the whole point of this debate being held.

 

[Caspoi]

My "headcanon" is literally canon but w/e.

And sure, you did not declare for the Lannisters IC but evidently the rest of the Reachlords had a thinking process closer to my own than yours, assuming that we are using Watsonian reasoning instead of inane arguing about established results.

Bannerlords desert all the time in the history of ASOIAF, see Faith Militant Uprising, Dance of Dragons, Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion... The Reach especially is rather notorious for this with Mace's reign actually being something of an anomaly with how unified everything is.

...didn't you just say

which inherently precludes things happening like canon?

Which is fair and explains why the Tyrells will not declare for Joffrey, though not necessarily for Stannis given all the baggage between them.

Sure, in canon. But here, the Reachlords are confronted by a situation they never had to face in canon - do they follow the eldest "legitimate" son of the king or do they follow the man who they have besieged and starved in a castle, with all the grudges that comes with this act? And there's always base ambition, which paid off quite mightily for Tarly in this case.

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Evidently King Saul had the same reasoning as you do is what you are saying, and that is the reasoning that we dispute. And it's not as if these Reachmen stayed behind because of Stannis, they sided with the Lannisters because of it, making their views of Joffrey quite relevant as well. And would this supposed hatred of Stannis, a hatred I don't really see manifest anywhere, have been enough to make such a large portion of Mace's vassals abandon him for a king who was both loosing and probably not all that well liked either after the battle at King's Landing?

 

[BlackCrown]

I would also like to bring up the fact that this is completely removing me and Caspoi from the game for reasons that we don't agree with. We have full right to dispute that we can just be eliminated without any warning, especially for Caspoi, who is eliminated due to reasons he specifically ordered to avoid.

I am effectively removed from the game at this point, there really is no point for me to play anymore.

 

[Caspoi]

Anyway it is apparant that we will not see eye to eye on the matter and that further arguments will do nothing to convince one side or the other, I strongly dislike how this game has been handled, especially during the last turn, you do not. Very well then. With no way to resolve these issues I will have to take my leave from this game. I have no wish to further play it and have lost my trust in the matter. I do not wish for a new character nor would I wish to countinue to countinue to play as Stannis even had he not somehow been captured. When my own character acts contrary to my own orders then I have lost all of my agency, the GM might as well be playing with NPCs only.


Goodby.

 

[CommandoHowizter]

To each their own.

 

[Arryn]

So what did I miss?

 

[Tiberius]

So what did I miss?

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Well, I think the Reach under Mace has left along with Stannis.