Challenge: Degrimdarkify 40k
- Thread starter Sabertooth
- Start date
Sure. But there are plenty of factions that wouldn't care if they squeaked. Nids as an example
Nerx
Chikin Noodle
- Location
- Sunda Kelapa
That would be cuddly tbh, give them googly plastic eyes and smoothen the sharp edges
Hence why I said sure. But cute things can still kill you dead and in horrible ways. Would be amusing though.
Just pointing out that making them squeak wouldn't inconvenice some factions at all.
- Location
- Russia
That was the impression I got from his post yes. Cute and amusing.So basically Carbotify the entirety of W40k?
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That'd be the point. It's just outright satire and exaggeration, instead of playing fascism apologia straight. No glorification of hard men making hard decisions or manly warriors doing manly warrior things or an oppressive security apparatus.
Then its not a universe that works at all. Like they have toned things down so that society actually works rather then everything is terrible forever. I think thats a worthwhile thing.
Like lets use this, cults and conspiracies in fiction are said to be based on things accused on jews which are bs but in fiction are true though not against jews. So should they be removed or shown to not be true in fiction?
Though even if what you wanted happened, daemons still exists which is why the oppressive security exists so it does not actually make a point at all.
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Sabertooth
Currently on a road trip with Magnus the Red
- Location
- Portugal
Orr glorify the right ones, like the Astral Knights who died taking a war world, the Salamanders who care for normal humans or the Space Wolves that went "LOLnope!" when the fucknuggets of the Inquisition wanted to kill the civilians and Steel Legion troops from Armageddon.
Speaking of that, that directive is the MOST retarded shit I have ever seen in 40k. "Let´s massacre experienced and loyal troops who just made the mistake of witness demons and still defeated them! While we are it it, lets kill the civilians too."
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
*coughs*Tau*coughs*Gue'vesa*coughs*
But "everything being terrible forever" was literally the point of the 40k setting. The setting's blurb is where the term "grimdark" comes from:
That is how 40k is supposed to be! And yes, such a universe is far too dysfunctional to tell any tales of heroics in it - but once again, that is the point. The point is that all factions are evil and brutal, the Imperium just as much as the Orcs or Chaos or the Eldar variants. There is no good guys here, and the Imperium should never be portrayed as such ever. It is literally just one sort of evil going against another sort of evil, and the universe will not be a better place for either side winning, because just as the blurb says there is no hope, no progress, only an eternity of slaughter. Nothing matters in the end. That was the conception of 40k, and that is how it should be.
...what? That's a strawman you created out of nothing. I never said anything remotely like that.
Or, you know, the reason Chaos has such an easy time infesting everything is because everybody lives shitty lives in large parts because of that oppressive state apparatus. Once again, that's the point: Since it is an ultra-dystopia where everything sucks, the Imperium only makes matters even worse. It is, not like some fanboys claim, a cruel necessity - rather, it is just more pointless suffering because 40k was created around the concept of everything being an over the top dystopia.
We have lore of Tau doing oppressive things too actually.*coughs*Tau*coughs*Gue'vesa*coughs*
Thats not what I meant though. I was talking about everyday activities and life.
I was using it as an example. But to be frank, that is what you are saying.
Not true. We have seen chaos infesting worlds that have nothing to do with the Imperium to chaos infecting people cause they doubted the Emperor even existed to Chaos infecting people through knowledge and art to geometries to apparently even inherited taint.
Its a dysptopia thats correct and the Imperium itself also causes people to turn to chaos but people turn to Chaos even if the Imperium wasn't a dystopia. Its a far more complicated then you make it out to be.
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Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
There are 8 editions of Warhammer. Demanding it go back to the days of 1st and 2nd edition with overthetop satire is impossible with current lore. People say this is the "right move" but they're glorifying this golden age of hillarity that barely even exists. It's like demanding superhero comics to go back to the 1930s with stupid villains, inconsistent character (like how Batman used to just shoot people) and outdated humor.
So if you say "make it satirical" it should be less Rogue Trader and more Eagle Ordinary and All Guardsmen Party. All this "go back to satire" is useless without actual suggestions on how it should be handled. It's non-40k fans who heard of dumb shit like Inquisitor Obiwan who want to go back to an age that is pretty much dead.
Like you know we have an actual named Squat right? None of y'all "go back to satire" folk even suggest the best way to reintengrate them back to current lore when ForgeWorld already gave us a hook to bring them back.
So if you say "make it satirical" it should be less Rogue Trader and more Eagle Ordinary and All Guardsmen Party. All this "go back to satire" is useless without actual suggestions on how it should be handled. It's non-40k fans who heard of dumb shit like Inquisitor Obiwan who want to go back to an age that is pretty much dead.
Like you know we have an actual named Squat right? None of y'all "go back to satire" folk even suggest the best way to reintengrate them back to current lore when ForgeWorld already gave us a hook to bring them back.
- Location
- Maine
Play all orks. An eldar even stated that the orks have 'won' because they are doing what they want to do.
- Location
- Canada
On a similar note I am sure the Tyranids are having a nice time munching through the galaxy after all that time in the void.
Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You know, that exact sort of thing is why I got out of 40K. Why, exactly, is it that the Inquisition always turn out to be justified in their actions? Is it too much to ask that the secret police with near-unlimited power and remit to stick their noses into anything they feel the need to occasionally gets things wrong, makes a bad call based on their prejudices, or, god forbid, abuse their immense power and privileges? But no, it's always "Trust in the Inquisition, they'll protect the Imperium, they may not always be right, but they're never wrong."
Fuck that fascistic shit. The Imperium of Man are the bad guys. They may be fighting worse guys, but they are still incredibly evil.
- Location
- Maine
They are given plenty of rope to hang themselves. Exterminous is ALWAYS subject to review and bomb someplace that is a good source of materials will get you up close and personal with an auto-flayer.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
Isn't the entire Eisenhorn novels more or less "absolute power absolutely corrupts, if you're an Inquisitor it's only a matter of time before you become the thing you fight against"?
Excuse me? Like um....have you read any lore thats not focused on the Inquisition or even lore focused on the Inquisition? We see the bold plenty of times. Infact, so many times its not even funny and quite tiring. The justified part is that the threats they go on about are real. Thats about it.
If you actually read the lore, you would know this. So I seriously doubt this post of yours.
Nobody in 40k is a good guy. Its all about survival and order vs chaos.
The quote:
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Hakazin
Serpent Admirer
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Huh. I haven't actually read those.
Well, I always was more a Chaos fan than anything. I suppose a lot of my issues come with interacting with particularly idiotic fans, and my impression of Imperial lore was colored by them.
Regardless, if you want the Imperium to be a properly heroic faction, you need to seriously change how they operate in order to prevent it from turning into a love-letter to the glories of fascism.
Ok. So your entire post can be dismissed then cause you don't actually read the lore and don't know what you're talking about.
Just to reiterate, an rpg series focused on you serving the Inquisition shows in great detail all the stuff you wanted and claimed did not exist.
The Imperium is not meant to be properly heroic. The people in it can be heroic or dark heroic or do heroic things but the Imperium itself is not like most civilizations aren't.
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Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
The Imperium can never be heroic IMO. The Imperium is a bloated corpse (to quoth Guilliman). But the common man and woman of the Imperium? They are heroic. Even the Emperor's Angels can be actual angels like the Bromanders and Space Wolves are.
I think that's where a lot of the "glorify fascism" idea comes from. People equate the Guard with the Imperium and while the Guard can be an instrument of tyranny, it can also be an instrument of saving lives. If you think the Space Marines glorify fascism then I think you should read a proper Space Marine novel because they're absolutely not as black and white as you think they are. I think the US military is a horrendous institution who has done far more harm than good to the international community but I'm not gonna call Americans fascist just because of that.
I think that's where a lot of the "glorify fascism" idea comes from. People equate the Guard with the Imperium and while the Guard can be an instrument of tyranny, it can also be an instrument of saving lives. If you think the Space Marines glorify fascism then I think you should read a proper Space Marine novel because they're absolutely not as black and white as you think they are. I think the US military is a horrendous institution who has done far more harm than good to the international community but I'm not gonna call Americans fascist just because of that.
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It comes from the fact that 40k is such a hellhole that fascism and things that happen in it make some sense and this offends people. Simple as that. I think they are taking this shit way too seriously but whatever.
Though there are plenty of people who would call americans fascist.
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Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
I personally am of the idea that fascism does not justify the means. That's what I don't like with some aspects of the 40k community, that tyranny and dictatorship is "the only way". You can have democracy, you can treat psykers like actual human beings, you can give people basic human rights and I think that can actually be a good thing and would actually weaken Chaos as a whole. Ultramar may be a feudalistic series of planets but people they for the most part are treated fairly and live good lives. Also, there's like 500 worlds of that. Ultramar taken in a vacuum is technically more noblebright than most sci-fi settings.
But I'm pretty sure that's a minority viewpoint. Most 40k fans I know are not of that mind, but hey your millage may vary.
Which is perfectly fine.
Sure. Though the Imperium ain't a dictatorship. Its a feudal oligarchy. The Emp hasn't done anything for 10,000 years.
Sure and they exist. But trying to implement it for the entire Imperium I would say is impossible. Funnily enough, the 40k rpg books has a colony world trying for a democracy fully in line with Imperial law only it never got of the ground cause orks invaded and to survive, they exalted the warrior class who well did feudalism.
I agree. Though the current psyker attitude stems from the Age of strife, worlds that treated psykers horribly survived while those that didn't became daemon food. It just grew from there.
This I'm not so sure about. the weaken chaos part I mean. doubtworm exists after all. Khorne from the rpg's tries and make simple disagreements explode into all out wars of genocide.
The Imperium lets the majority of worlds govern themselves and going with dystopia of aristocrats are evil have it so they don't care about the general population.
Thats cause the leadership cares.
I agree with you for the most part.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
No dude, the Imperium is a dictatorship by sole virtue that most worlds are shit places to live. We can get into semantics how it's technically an oligarchy but it doesn't change the fact that most planets are terrible places to live. Planetary governors live like god kings while crime and poverty is high.
This is a Themian Argument. The most powerful military in the world today is a product of democracy. It only got invaded because the writer deems it so. If I wrote the RPG books, I would mention the one where the civilian controls the military would beat back the Orks. So using this one example is not a good argument. Could it work for the entire Imperium? Unlikely, but it can work for a lot more worlds that isn't Cadia or Catachan or whatever.
Well it's good the Ultramarines are good blokes but here's the thing, the Ultramarines are the exception. For every world like one of the 500 worlds of Ultramar there's probably a dozen more where god kings rule with an iron fist.
Either way, if the Imperium sheds just a bit of its Imperium-ness, have some democracy here and there, you move from grimderp to grimdark. I like the grimdark. But there can be a thing as too much of it comes off as unbelievable even in a setting where millions die all the time.