Can we talk about the intentional blindness in Anime fans to certain themes in select series?

[Konradleijon]

And by that I mean Western Otaku totally ignoring obvious themes of sexism and racism in popular anime.

like Remember when Highschool of the Dead was big? As it turns out the Mangaka is a Far-right nutcase and he put many unsubtle dog whistles in the story.

ejcjs - High School of the Dead and the Profitable Use of Japanese Nationalistic Imagery

From one of the main characters parents being part of the Uyoku dantai, which will the Alt-right is the western version of the Uyoku dantai being unrepentant imperialists that hate minorities and blame them for the problems of the nation. And it was a huge thing of the 2000s and Anime fans like completely ignored the obvious dog whistles.

Another example is terra formars which is absurdly racist. I don't want to even get into the obvious racism of Terra Formers because it is disgusting the various monster designs are caricatures of black people and when I did a quick search their where a lot of anime fans wondering why people would find it racist.

why is that Anime fans can't see the obvious toxic garbage in their work?

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

Because it's "Japan", so people will justify things that wouldn't slide in an American or western context by saying that things are "different" in Japan. Also, anime Fandoms are not really all that non toxic themselves considering how daft a good chunk of them can be when it comes to whitewashing (Ghost in the Shell is a good example of this.) Though, I feel like a thread like this may be best served by going in the political regions of the forum.

 

[all fictions]

This bit from this review of Terraformars always hit me in how relevant it is:

So why the Treatise?

Because, as was the case with The Rising of the Shield Hero, and as I expect to be the case for many of the shows I end up writing about, anime fans are easy to accept these kinds of mechanical, apolitical criticisms of the anime. If you try, or even hint at, the disgusting and obvious bigotry and propaganda on display from the first scene of the first season to the last, if you bring its disturbing source material out in the open, anime fans band together and defend the show from any kind of criticism.

Click to shrink...

 

[Konradleijon]

Because it's "Japan", so people will justify things that wouldn't slide in an American or western context by saying that things are "different" in Japan. Also, anime Fandoms are not really all that non toxic themselves considering how daft a good chunk of them can be when it comes to whitewashing (Ghost in the Shell is a good example of this.) Though, I feel like a thread like this may be best served by going in the political regions of the forum.

Click to shrink...

Yeha it's Japan , Japan can't be racist. It's not white, please ignore the history of the Japanese Empire. Lots of Anime fans are sick of "politics" in western media, (AKA politics they don't like.) and love their idea of a ethnically homogeneous nation sate with waifus, which isn't true but they no nothing of Japanese politics.

 

[very fast pickle]

It's very fucked up . Those reminds me of old school racist propaganda.
And every group can be racist or xenophobic japanese are no exceptions. They don't have the best track record regarding that . (
An other one is gate whey people seemingly cheer about massacring the opposing army when blood bath can be avoided by smart planning .
But it's always [insert your preferred ethicgroup ] fuck yeah. Let's not think about every one else . It's not like they have lives like us .

This bit from this review of Terraformars always hit me in how relevant it is:

Click to shrink...

And they blame people for being anti fun...
Just don't make racist shit .
Didn't fully read it but pictures tell all I need.

 

[Konradleijon]

It's very fucked up . Those reminds me of old school racist propaganda.
And every group can be racist or xenophobic japanese are no exceptions. They don't have the best track record regarding that . (
An other one is gate whey people seemingly cheer about massacring the opposing army when blood bath can be avoided by smart planning .
But it's always [insert your preferred ethicgroup ] fuck yeah. Let's not think about every one else . It's not like they have lives like us .

And they blame people for being anti fun...
Just don't make racist shit .
Didn't fully read it but pictures tell all I need.

Click to shrink...

yeah Gate is clearly JSDF propaganda. It's definitely not the dominant force in Japan atleast not anymore then the American far-right, and stuff like Full-metal Alchemist and Tezuka's work.

 

[Teal]

A lot of this has already been sorta discussed in the parallel thread Why Is Isekai so Fucking Gross with Slavery and Racism? (Though it seemingly got renamed to "Isekai discussion thread).

But to port a common sentiment over in a couple sentences, western otakus could be said to fall into three categories vis-a-vis anime awfulness: they support and agree with the (western version of) politics presented, they're aware and don't bother calling it out because it's so blindingly obvious when it happens, and there's plenty of good anime that doesn't excuse slavery or advocate for a new age of imperialism... Or there are the watchers who are completely oblivious to all that, partly because the trappings and aesthetics and fine details of japanese extremism are different then european extremism, and harder to notice for that casual viewer, but also because of the "Japan can't be racist" blinders already touched on.

yeah Gate is clearly JSDF propaganda. It's definitely not the dominant force in Japan atleast not anymore then the American far-right, and stuff like Full-metal Alchemist and Tezuka's work.

Click to shrink...

I think you mean Uyoku Dantai, japanese fascist groups, the JSDF is Japan's defense militia. And while yeah, Gate totally has themes of "whoa, how cool is our military, support our boys in green!" Most nations have media like that, and it's acceptable depending on the context it's presented. It's the fascist ideologies on display front and center that make Gate "problematic".

Also, you need to clarify your point about FMA, because IMO it's one of the most woke anime out there

 

[Althaea]

Why are Western military sci-fi fans such massive fascists?

And by that I mean Western nerds totally ignoring obvious themes of sexism, racism and fascism in popular novels.

Like remember when Honor Harrington was big? As it turns out the author is a far-right nutcase and he put many unsubtle dog whistles in his story.

Full slow ahead! - Ralson reads Honor Harrington: A Rising Thunder

From one of the main characters parents being part of the aristocracy, which is pretty much the Western version of the zaibatsu families, being unrepentant capitalists that hate the poor and blame them for the problems of the nations. And it was a huge thing of the 2000s and military sci-fans like completely ignored the obvious dog whistles.

Another example is A Desert Called Peace which is absurdly racist. I don't want to even get into the obvious racism of A Desert Called Peace because it is disgusting, the various villains are caricatures of Muslims and when I did a quick search there were a lot of MilSF fans wondering why people would find it racist.

Why is it that MilSF fans can't see the obvious toxic garbage in their work?

(tl;dr /s)

 

[Teal]

Why are Western military sci-fi fans such massive fascists?

And by that I mean Western nerds totally ignoring obvious themes of sexism, racism and fascism in popular novels.

Like remember when Honor Harrington was big? As it turns out the author is a far-right nutcase and he put many unsubtle dog whistles in his story.

Full slow ahead! - Ralson reads Honor Harrington: A Rising Thunder

From one of the main characters parents being part of the aristocracy, which is pretty much the Western version of the zaibatsu families, being unrepentant capitalists that hate the poor and blame them for the problems of the nations. And it was a huge thing of the 2000s and military sci-fans like completely ignored the obvious dog whistles.

Another example is A Desert Called Peace which is absurdly racist. I don't want to even get into the obvious racism of A Desert Called Peace because it is disgusting, the various villains are caricatures of Muslims and when I did a quick search there were a lot of MilSF fans wondering why people would find it racist.

Why is it that MilSF fans can't see the obvious toxic garbage in their work?

Click to shrink...

Preem whataboutism my dood, here's a let's read from this very site where all that is picked apart to death.

 

[Althaea]

Okay, so, for real this time, I'm gonna drop a kind of truth bomb that's apparently going to blow up a lot of people's brains.

There's... dumb and uninformed people on the Internet. Lots of them. Lots of them are edgy jackasses who hang out on 4chan. Others are just completely uncritical consumers of various kinds of media. They read books, watch movies, and listen to podcasts made by stupid people with stupid politics. Some just don't know better, being white boys who are hopped up on privilege and don't question anything they consume.

It's the same crowd that gets assblasted about Twilight, the same crowd that was concerned about eThIcS iN gAmInG jOuRnAlIsM, that got absolutely assblasted about a muscular woman starring in The Last of Us 2. It's the same crowd that reads Baen novels and proclaim themselves to be prolific mother-lovers over XBox Live.

There's just no mystery about it.

Preem whataboutism my dood, here's a let's read from this very site where all that is picked apart to death.

Click to shrink...

Reread my post and mentally reformat it to that old sarcastic SpOnGeBoB SqUaReMeMe format.

The same crowd that "doesn't question" the shittiness in Honor Harrington is by and large the exact same demographic that the opening post is whining about.

There's nothing unique about anime that causes any of this.

It's just a fact that there's a large demographic of uncritical media consumers on the Internet. They're pretty much the majority in a lot of places, being that NEETs and procrastinating students represent a disproportionate part of all Internet activity everywhere.

 

[gyrobot]

True, but at least over here we had been successful in making sure they had absolutely no input in the creative process of entertainment here whereas anime is still risk averse that they can't push too many buttons and enforce critical thinking in its fanbase.

 

[FortePlus]

As much as I like to dunk on people who uncritically accept bad stuff in anime and manga, this really is a poorly thought out thread that only serves to be accusatory and combative. Citing two examples of series on this forum that have been repeatedly slam jammed on in multiple threads just kind of adds to the irony. It reads like a gyrobot thread. Not flattering: for the reasons that said person consistently does not back up their takes and paints everything with a very broad brush all of the time. While I'm sure that they have their reasons for not liking anime and anime related things, they are never properly articulated and make consistent accusations of groups of people without evidence, or if the evidence is there it is almost always poorly sourced, contradictory, or false. Thus whenever I encounter this person I am wary of the things they repeatedly assert.

e: wow right on cue huh.

 

[Konradleijon]

A lot of this has already been sorta discussed in the parallel thread Why Is Isekai so Fucking Gross with Slavery and Racism? (Though it seemingly got renamed to "Isekai discussion thread).

But to port a common sentiment over in a couple sentences, western otakus could be said to fall into three categories vis-a-vis anime awfulness: they support and agree with the (western version of) politics presented, they're aware and don't bother calling it out because it's so blindingly obvious when it happens, and there's plenty of good anime that doesn't excuse slavery or advocate for a new age of imperialism... Or there are the watchers who are completely oblivious to all that, partly because the trappings and aesthetics and fine details of japanese extremism are different then european extremism, and harder to notice for that casual viewer, but also because of the "Japan can't be racist" blinders already touched on.

I think you mean Uyoku Dantai, japanese fascist groups, the JSDF is Japan's defense militia. And while yeah, Gate totally has themes of "whoa, how cool is our military, support our boys in green!" Most nations have media like that, and it's acceptable depending on the context it's presented. It's the fascist ideologies on display front and center that make Gate "problematic".

Also, you need to clarify your point about FMA, because IMO it's one of the most woke anime out there

Click to shrink...

what I mean is not all Mangaka are racist trash some are pretty progressive like Hiromi, and tezuka.

and Gate isn't the worse thing ever but is still obviously bad.

 

[Teal]

Okay, so, for real this time, I'm gonna drop a kind of truth bomb that's apparently going to blow up a lot of people's brains.

There's... dumb and uninformed people on the Internet. Lots of them. Lots of them are edgy jackasses who hang out on 4chan. Others are just completely uncritical consumers of various kinds of media. They read books, watch movies, and listen to podcasts made by stupid people with stupid politics. Some just don't know better, being white boys who are hopped up on privilege and don't question anything they consume.

It's the same crowd that gets assblasted about Twilight, the same crowd that was concerned about eThIcS iN gAmInG jOuRnAlIsM, that got absolutely assblasted about a muscular woman starring in The Last of Us 2. It's the same crowd that reads Baen novels and proclaim themselves to be prolific mother-lovers over XBox Live.

There's just no mystery about it.



Reread my post and mentally reformat it to that old sarcastic SpOnGeBoB SqUaReMeMe format.

The same crowd that "doesn't question" the shittiness in Honor Harrington is by and large the exact same demographic that the opening post is whining about.

There's nothing unique about anime that causes any of this.

It's just a fact that there's a large demographic of uncritical media consumers on the Internet. They're pretty much the majority in a lot of places, being that NEETs and procrastinating students represent a disproportionate part of all Internet activity everywhere.

Click to shrink...

*Blinks*

Maybe you should reread my post and mentally reformat it back into the obviously flippant sarcasm post it was. I wasn't seriously challenging your assertion, I was sarcastically pointing out the fact that the very same demographic you're talking about has already been picked apart in other threads, and taking the opportunity to link relevant threads for a new member!

As much as I like to dunk on people who uncritically accept bad stuff in anime and manga, this really is a poorly thought out thread that only serves to be accusatory and combative. Citing two examples of series on this forum that have been repeatedly slam jammed on in multiple threads just kind of adds to the irony. It reads like a gyrobot thread. Not flattering.

e: wow right on cue huh.

Click to shrink...

Christ, no one in this thread thinks they're hammering out a new theory of anime critique, someone who joined this forum two months ago and very clearly didn't bear witness to all that slam jamming asked a question about a fandom she doesn't fully understand, so I and other helpful posters took five minutes out of our days to impart some of SV's collective knowledge, so that she doesn't get this very same scorn for making a cold take in a beefier thread!

👏👏

Truly, well done on being welcoming to new members everyone, read the fucking room before jumping down posters' throats for not being absolutely caught up on the state of anime critique on one tiny corner of the internet.

Like, in my first comment I even talk about how this is all a cold take to the bulk of non-fascist anime viewers:

they're aware and don't bother calling it out because it's so blindingly obvious when it happens, and there's plenty of good anime that doesn't excuse slavery or advocate for a new age of imperialism...

Click to shrink...

But no, you had to get internet cookies by dunking on those less knowledgeable than you. Not every post or thread is a competitive intellectual arena, sometimes people are earnestly asking for clarification.

 

[FortePlus]

Truly, well done

Click to shrink...

You're welcome. Hey and thanks for ripping all the context out of my post, I appreciate it.

But in all honesty, who even are you? Like, if I want to identify a cold take that employs the worst sort of pray and spray approach, without attacking or insulting the poster themselves then it's not going be you who stops me. So why even try with the self righteous angle here? It's baffling. Don't quote me again.

 

[Shanejayell]

*waits for someone to bring up Saga of Tanya the Evil*

Also, no Goblin Slayer yet? I'm stunned that hasn't come up too.

 

[Konradleijon]

*waits for someone to bring up Saga of Tanya the Evil*

Also, no Goblin Slayer yet? I'm stunned that hasn't come up too.

Click to shrink...

Goblin Slayer started as a chose your own adventure on 2chan so you know it's shit, and Tanya is usually framed as a bad person and not the proper choice for life.

 

[Teal]

You're welcome. Hey and thanks for ripping all the context out of my post, I appreciate it.

But in all honesty, who even are you? Like, if I want to identify a cold take that employs the worst sort of pray and spray approach, without attacking or insulting the poster themselves then it's not going be you who stops me. So why even try with the self righteous angle here? It's baffling. Don't quote me again.

Click to shrink...

K, I'll just reply to you.

Who am I? Uh, sorry, I didn't know this was leftist twitter, where I have to be verified, have a thousand followers, and have committed twelve dunkings on elected officials to be allowed to post. Please forgive me, your excellency, for having the audacity to speak my mind and call out uncivil behavior on a forum dedicated to civil discourse! I beg that you provide me with your indulgence, your majesty, for my temerity to question one as elite as yourself!

Now who are you to misread the OP's intention and question, throw shit on people for trying to be helpful, then double down on the elitism when you're called out? If I really stripped the context from your post, state in clear language what you intended to write, explain how:

As much as I like to dunk on people who uncritically accept bad stuff in anime and manga, this really is a poorly thought out thread that only serves to be accusatory and combative.

Click to shrink...

Isn't a scornful reply about how an intellectual discussion is beneath you? Could you justify how:

Citing two examples of series on this forum that have been repeatedly slam jammed on in multiple threads just kind of adds to the irony. It reads like a gyrobot thread. Not flattering.

Click to shrink...

Isn't being unhelpful and elitist to a new member asking a Simple. Fucking. Question. About an interest of hers?

 

[gyrobot]

Isn't a scornful reply about how an intellectual discussion is beneath you? Could you justify how:

Isn't being unhelpful and elitist to a new member asking a Simple. Fucking. Question. About an interest of hers?

Click to shrink...

Since he took a snipe at me, I can explain why he refuses to engage with her is because I had a lot of negative opinions on anime based on experience and won't stop taking stabs at it. So to Forte, he thinks Konradleinon is another person like me, here just to make knee jerk reaction to anime because it is problematic.

 

[Vylinius]

I have a hot take that burns with the fury of a thousand suns.

Maybe, the issue isn't Anime, but is in the fact the Capitalist system that produces our media environment and the culture of uncritical consumerism, especially of the kind of problematic ideals exemplified in many Anime, western Milscifi, and other categories of media that tend to be very popular in vocal and visible internet circles, but are not necessarily popular on this particular website where almost everyone can universally condemn the various obvious, and worst offenders in specific.

 

[Kei]

And by that I mean Western Otaku totally ignoring obvious themes of sexism and racism in popular anime.

Click to shrink...

Emphasis mine, because I'd like to set certain parameters to this discussion. Are you asking about anime itself having a problem? Or a specific subset of fans from a specific culture having a problem?

Actually, to specify even more: When you say "West", are you referring to a broad range "white cultures" that speak different languages, or are you actually referring to the Anglosphere specifically?

This isn't meant to be a condemnation of your question. Not speaking a language is an obvious reason why you may not be as familiar with certain cultural spheres, and language is a pretty significant investment of time and effort. And being cavalier about language (I'm one to talk) can lead to some pretty open-ended discussions where people kind of talk past each other for a while.

But, yes, emphasis mine, partly because it's easier to address, the alternative requiring a much long answer that I don't have the energy to write-up right at the moment: If your question is why anime fans in the Anglosphere can get defensive of sexism and racism anime...well, probably because a large part of the Anglosphere is pretty sexist and racist? In the U.S., nearly 47% of all voters supported Donald Trump in the 2020 elections. In the UK, the Conservative Party under Boris Johnson won 42.4% of the popular vote in multi-party elections. Over the past few years, there has been a surge in far-right rallies, xenophobia, attacks on women's rights, transphobia, and all that other fun stuff across the Anglosphere, with the U.S. and the UK being standout examples, but Canada and Australia also having their own problems. Who the Anglosphere has elected into office is certainly a noteworthy barometer, but the people who hold these views don't really go away depending on who's in office. These people with these views have always existed.

Turns out that there are a lot of people in the English-speaking world with a lot of problematic views, and these English-speaking people are going to speak out in support of values that vaguely resemble their own.

 

[tramp_stamp]

The absurdity of the harem genre. It's one thing to have several suitors. The inability of the protagonist to just pick on and/or the others seeming inability to give up quickly crosses from entertaining to tiresome.

And then there's the pretty freeloaders ...

Unless it's a situation like Elfen Lied where Kouta and Yuka are cousins who already have the means and spare rooms, it's not believable in the slightest to let someone you've just met move in.

 

[Mak Taru]

Emphasis mine, because I'd like to set certain parameters to this discussion. Are you asking about anime itself having a problem? Or a specific subset of fans from a specific culture having a problem?

Actually, to specify even more: When you say "West", are you referring to a broad range "white cultures" that speak different languages, or are you actually referring to the Anglosphere specifically?

This isn't meant to be a condemnation of your question. Not speaking a language is an obvious reason why you may not be as familiar with certain cultural spheres, and language is a pretty significant investment of time and effort. And being cavalier about language (I'm one to talk) can lead to some pretty open-ended discussions where people kind of talk past each other for a while.

But, yes, emphasis mine, partly because it's easier to address, the alternative requiring a much long answer that I don't have the energy to write-up right at the moment: If your question is why anime fans in the Anglosphere can get defensive of sexism and racism anime...well, probably because a large part of the Anglosphere is pretty sexist and racist? In the U.S., nearly 47% of all voters supported Donald Trump in the 2020 elections. In the UK, the Conservative Party under Boris Johnson won 42.4% of the popular vote in multi-party elections. Over the past few years, there has been a surge in far-right rallies, xenophobia, attacks on women's rights, transphobia, and all that other fun stuff across the Anglosphere, with the U.S. and the UK being standout examples, but Canada and Australia also having their own problems. Who the Anglosphere has elected into office is certainly a noteworthy barometer, but the people who hold these views don't really go away depending on who's in office. These people with these views have always existed.

Turns out that there are a lot of people in the English-speaking world with a lot of problematic views, and these English-speaking people are going to speak out in support of values that vaguely resemble their own.

Click to shrink...

It's really not helping things to categorize every single person who votes for a conservative politician as racist and/or sexist. The vast majority of them aren't. Just to talk about the US, Trump voters are easily swayed by arguments about abortion, socialism, Chinese influence, etc.

 

[Kei]

It's really not helping things to categorize every single person who votes for a conservative politician as racist and/or sexist. The vast majority of them aren't. Just to talk about the US, Trump voters are easily swayed by arguments about abortion, socialism, Chinese influence, etc.

Click to shrink...

The implication here is not that every person who voted for Trump is necessarily an active proponent of relatively uncontroversial definitions of sexism and racism (since what qualifies as "sexism" and "racism" varies even among various progressive factions). Rather, it's to point out that 47% of all American voters did not consider Trump's sexism and racism to disqualify him for a candidate, for whatever reason, and that we can certainly extrapolate from that.

 

[FortePlus]

Since he took a snipe at me, I can explain why he refuses to engage with her is because I had a lot of negative opinions on anime based on experience and won't stop taking stabs at it.

Click to shrink...

You continually make arguments in bad faith and that's why this thread reminds me of you, and it's why I don't like your opinions. There are several people in this forum that have opinions on certain anime that clash with mine, but there is a reason why I can trust their arguments even if I disagree with them.