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Britain goes Fascist, joins Hitler after the Fall of France.

V

Vashon

Banned Forever
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Whether they helped the Nazis take France down, or what, is irrelevant.

After Dunkirk, Fascist take over Britain in a Silent, Gentle coup. Basically parliament goes Fascist....

blahblahblah. Its irrelevant.

Hitler has the same war goals. Britain is his ally for the price of whatever French colonies they want, and Japan is willing to deal, and all three of them don't like the US opposition and even more open support of the USSR even before the fight officially begins. The USA is a bit worried, for obvious reasons. Well?

What happens in regards to the war and future developments?
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obssesednuker said:
They'll have to let their entire Empire go. And probably a majority of the RN who will refuse to accept the new fascist government as legitimate. That will kind of gut their ability to do anything about it, even before you add the United States into the equation. I wonder if the British resistance will follow the same course as the French one...
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You see this post? All of it? No. Noooooo.
 
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US stays neutral. With Britain against it, and US supplies no longer flowing in, USSR is crushed by the Axis forces, though only after grinding them down through massive, absurd attrition.

Canada and Australia likely ditch the British Commonwealth, and join up with the US instead, since it's the only major power left that's sane. And because Canada doesn't want to get invaded.
 
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But what if Britain and Japan wage a joint Pearl Harbor style attack, in an attempt to fully stop America from sending supplies to the USSR/China?
 
Would a fascist Britain necessarily be a German ally? Fascism is an ideology of your nation above all others. While that doesn't preclude cooperation... What interests of Britian are served by allying with Germany and allowing them to be the undisputed hegemon of Europe? Is it truely in the interest of the Empire to allow a European Megastate to form? What does Britian get out of fighting Russia?

The other European Axis powers joined in out of fear of the Soviets (The British are protected by the fact they have the RN and the Soviet Navy at this point sucks on ice) or a desire to curry favor so Germany would back their territorial ambitions (see Hungary). Britian doesn't really have any territorial ambitions that Germany can help with. So... What are they getting out of this?

I mean let's you're the leader of fascist England, are you really that eager to ship off hundreds of thousands of young Englishmen, the hope of your race and future fathers of the next generation of your followers, to die on the frozen Russian Steppe so that Germany can carve out a massive megastate for German settlement?
 
Vashon said:
But what if Britain and Japan wage a joint Pearl Harbor style attack, in an attempt to fully stop America from sending supplies to the USSR/China?
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They lose anyway. They cannot dream of invading the US while they just motivated the US to get even harder than OTL in war economy. The Soviets will possibly be massively fucked, though not without bleeding the Germans dry. But it just means it will end up with nukes. A lot of nukes. :-(

And, no, Germany/UK cannot reasonably get nuclear weapons or delivery systems soon enough to counter this. Especially when the Commonwealth inevitably ditches the Home Islands.
 
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Rufus Shinra said:
And, no, Germany/UK cannot reasonably get nuclear weapons or delivery systems soon enough to counter this. Especially when the Commonwealth inevitably ditches the Home Islands.[/QUOTE

Canada might ,Australia wouldn't a final solution for the aboriginal population would be appealing:anger:.
The USSR is screwed over not because the UK fights other than a token volunteer force. Its because US industry
does not get the kick start from the allies trying to buy any weapons they can build. And getting aid to USSR becomes a lot harder even if the will is there.
Stinking commies who speak funny are a harder sell than plucky Brits. When it comes to Roosevelt getting his war on. No nukes either as without the Manhattan project with Japan not having to fight the US for resources and Nazi Europe having no plans or ability to attack America no ones voting the funds for the bombers or the bomb.
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forum viking said:
Would a fascist Britain necessarily be a German ally? Fascism is an ideology of your nation above all others. While that doesn't preclude cooperation... What interests of Britian are served by allying with Germany and allowing them to be the undisputed hegemon of Europe? Is it truely in the interest of the Empire to allow a European Megastate to form? What does Britian get out of fighting Russia?

The other European Axis powers joined in out of fear of the Soviets (The British are protected by the fact they have the RN and the Soviet Navy at this point sucks on ice) or a desire to curry favor so Germany would back their territorial ambitions (see Hungary). Britian doesn't really have any territorial ambitions that Germany can help with. So... What are they getting out of this?

I mean let's you're the leader of fascist England, are you really that eager to ship off hundreds of thousands of young Englishmen, the hope of your race and future fathers of the next generation of your followers, to die on the frozen Russian Steppe so that Germany can carve out a massive megastate for German settlement?
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Indeed. The influence should be flowing in the other direction, if anything, given the alt-UK is the one holding the cards.
 
Rufus Shinra said:
They lose anyway. They cannot dream of invading the US while they just motivated the US to get even harder than OTL in war economy. The Soviets will possibly be massively fucked, though not without bleeding the Germans dry. But it just means it will end up with nukes. A lot of nukes. :-(

And, no, Germany/UK cannot reasonably get nuclear weapons or delivery systems soon enough to counter this. Especially when the Commonwealth inevitably ditches the Home Islands.
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Whoever said they would actually invade the US? Pearl Harbor was an attempt at intimidation and a strategic strike.

Oh and its OP Fiat. The point is that Nazi Germany has Britain as an ally now instead of an enemy.
 
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i don't think that canada CAN ditch commonwealth, i mean we were legally bounded as a colony and it would take a full scale rebellion to fix that.
 
I saw one documentary on the old History Channel that claimed that that was what really killed the British Empire and the rest was just gravedigging. He also mentioned something earlier but said it was contestable.
 
kobster22 said:
i don't think that canada CAN ditch commonwealth, i mean we were legally bounded as a colony and it would take a full scale rebellion to fix that.
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Mackenzie King was already trying to assert our autonomy by declaring war against Germany a week after the UK and was trying to increase ties to the Americans in general, the British government wasn't giving a rat's ass about us at the time so I think we would have told Britain to go fuck itself if they went off the reservation.

And then they lose those shitloads of raw resources.
 
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Reveen said:
Mackenzie King was already trying to assert our autoimmunity by declaring war against Germany a week after the UK and was trying to increase ties to the Americans in general, the British government wasn't giving a rat's ass about us at the time so I think we would have told Britain to go fuck itself if they went off the reservation.

And then they lose those shitloads of raw resources.
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i know, but we would have more than enough people who would support Britain to make it a bloody civil war if we did.
 
Ok. so Britian is now Germany's ally as of August 1940
1. Lend/Lease aid ceases to flow through the Atlantic, as the flow is redirected to the Pacific.
2. most Commonwealth nations form new alliance with USA
3. US Pacific Fleet gets HUGE shot in the arm: Atlantic Fleet gears for defensive operations.
4. Axis Powers throw new membership party as formerly neutral nations join the bandwagon.
January 1941:
1. US Pacific forces are reinforcing defenses all over the Pacific.
Gen'l MacArthur is dispatched with 150,000 defenders, 175 P40 Warhawks, 36 F2A Buffalos, 21 P39 Airacobras and 80 heavy bombers.
2. Lend/Lease in higher gear, transferring self defense items to India and Austrailia.
3. brand new B-17D bombers begin rolling from assembly lines: B-24A bombers begin deployment to active duty units.
June 1941: Adolph "un-friends" Joe (Stalin)
Operation Barbarrosa kicks off. Without the Brits to worry about, initial invasion forces are increased by 20%.
Follow on units are increased by 10%; Logistics are increased by 30%, and somebody, somewhere remembers to pack winter gear.
7 December 1941: Pearl Harbor
Incensed by America reinforcing its Pacific holding, and claiming that Lend/Lease is an instigation to war by a neutral power;
Japan dispatches Yamamoto to attack the Hawaiian islands.
1. With a year + to increase its defensive posture, PacFleet HQ manages to defend itself quite well, despite the element of surprise.
2. Instead of one radar station on northern Oahu, there were 5; thus the USAAF was not caught entirely on the ground.
instead of the curbstomp of our history, Japanese losses were 50% higher, whilst American losses in personnel, were 75% less.
However, Yamato's aim of crippling the fleet was still successful, but to a far lesser extent.
The USS Arizona manages to clear its anchorage during the initial strike, but slams into the Oklahoma due to rudder damage.
Oddly enough, this is sufficient to keep the Oklahoma from turning turtle, and the two ships' companies manage to keep both afloat until they can be beached. Both ships take dozens of casualties, and are left out of commission for 31 months.
*In the Phillipines, MacArthurs' forces come to a deadlock with Japanese invaders.
Altho his air forces are technologically inferior to the Japanese, MacArthur has just enough to deny the Japanese total air superiority.
10 December 1941: America joins the war.
Strangely enough, Hilter declines to declare war on the US,;
and thus a strange Cold War develops in the Atlantic while America slugs it out with Japan in the Pacific.
 
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Hassam said:
It does not really matter. If Canada follows the UK (which it probably wont seeing as it would probably involve getting rid of home rule to some extent) it will get steam rolled by the US war machine.
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and by doing so, America declares war on Britain and thus Nazi Germany.
Remember, the American public never wanted to go to war as they saw it as more European troubles, right up until pearl harbour.
 
kobster22 said:
and by doing so, America declares war on Britain and thus Nazi Germany.
Remember, the American public never wanted to go to war as they saw it as more European troubles, right up until pearl harbour.
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They didn't want to get involved because it was a European war, having a potential enemy at your doorsteps changes things.
 
Hassam said:
They didn't want to get involved because it was a European war, having a potential enemy at your doorsteps changes things.
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enough to declare war? most likely not.
remember Nazi Germany LIKED the Americans, with Canada in their grasp they would have a much easier time making sure that America doesn't declare war on them.
even with Canada though, it's not like they will be able to take back Europe.
 
Again, Canada is hardly "in the Nazis grasp" just because Britain is. While there might probably be strife between pro-fascists, pro-Britons, and Pro-Canadas, the amount is debatable.

If the fascist coup involves overthrowing the monarchy I don't see how significant numbers of pro-Britain Canadians would want to support the Nazis. And we outlawed and detained the fascists in the real timeline without fighting a guerilla war so I don't see why they would be just as much of a problem here.
 
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Two obviously very different scenarios pop up. It depends on if the US comes in the war or not.
 
Grognard said:
Ok. so Britian is now Germany's ally as of August 1940
1. Lend/Lease aid ceases to flow through the Atlantic, as the flow is redirected to the Pacific.
2. most Commonwealth nations form new alliance with USA
3. US Pacific Fleet gets HUGE shot in the arm: Atlantic Fleet gears for defensive operations.
4. Axis Powers throw new membership party as formerly neutral nations join the bandwagon.
January 1941:
1. US Pacific forces are reinforcing defenses all over the Pacific.
Gen'l MacArthur is dispatched with 150,000 defenders, 175 P40 Warhawks, 36 F2A Buffalos, 21 P39 Airacobras and 80 heavy bombers.
2. Lend/Lease in higher gear, transferring self defense items to India and Austrailia.
3. brand new B-17D bombers begin rolling from assembly lines: B-24A bombers begin deployment to active duty units.
June 1941: Adolph "un-friends" Joe (Stalin)
Operation Barbarrosa kicks off. Without the Brits to worry about, initial invasion forces are increased by 20%.
Follow on units are increased by 10%; Logistics are increased by 30%, and somebody, somewhere remembers to pack winter gear.
7 December 1941: Pearl Harbor
Incensed by America reinforcing its Pacific holding, and claiming that Lend/Lease is an instigation to war by a neutral power;
Japan dispatches Yamamoto to attack the Hawaiian islands.
1. With a year + to increase its defensive posture, PacFleet HQ manages to defend itself quite well, despite the element of surprise.
2. Instead of one radar station on northern Oahu, there were 5; thus the USAAF was not caught entirely on the ground.
instead of the curbstomp of our history, Japanese losses were 50% higher, whilst American losses in personnel, were 75% less.
However, Yamato's aim of crippling the fleet was still successful, but to a far lesser extent.
The USS Arizona manages to clear its anchorage during the initial strike, but slams into the Oklahoma due to rudder damage.
Oddly enough, this is sufficient to keep the Oklahoma from turning turtle, and the two ships' companies manage to keep both afloat until they can be beached. Both ships take dozens of casualties, and are left out of commission for 31 months.
*In the Phillipines, MacArthurs' forces come to a deadlock with Japanese invaders.
Altho his air forces are technologically inferior to the Japanese, MacArthur has just enough to deny the Japanese total air superiority.
10 December 1941: America joins the war.
Strangely enough, Hilter declines to declare war on the US,;
and thus a strange Cold War develops in the Atlantic while America slugs it out with Japan in the Pacific.
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Why is japan picking a fight with the US? It has french indochina and the dutch colonies and the britsh are still trading so no need for the war against America. If it really must get its war on it can join in giving the Russians a kicking.
 
kobster22 said:
remember Nazi Germany LIKED the Americans
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Citation Needed. From what I remember of reading The Second World War, Hitler in particular and the Nazis in general saw the US as a bastion of Jews. Even without that, the USA was arguably a major part of Germany's defeat in WWI, with all that followed.

Now, it should be noted that this is one of the two points in WWII where the Axis could have pulled off a… perhaps not total victory, but if Britain had gone to the negotiating table it would have been very difficult for them to return to a posture of defiance.

The other point was vs. the USSR and Pearl Harbour. Namely, Japan should have focused north and west instead of south and east. Attacking Siberia at the same time as the Germans attacked the west of the USSR would have put massive pressure on Stalin. Enough to take the Soviet Union out… maybe.

The reason they didn't, iirc, was they remembered some… border skirmishes, really, that Japan had done pretty poorly in… 1938? Before the actual major conflict. There's your answer, btw, @dylanredefined. Overall, the Axis powers made a lot of majorly suboptimal decisions.
 
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